ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[KMadCandy]

Is it possible to halt an enemy AI's space program entirely if you torch their Apollo city? If so, that might be a good method for buying time.

if the apollo program is complete, then you can't do anything that will stop them from having the ability to make space ship parts. you can sabotage production of the parts, or nuke/capture their cities, or pillage the land so that they can't physically get the parts out in any reasonable length of time. but once apollo is done, it's done, and not even razing that city will take away the technological capability they now have in theory to build the parts.

older versions of civ were quite different. in at least one, you had to survive for 20? years after launch i think it was. if you lost your capital at any time during that period, "game over man, game over". it added a bit more flavor in some ways. then again, in some cases you're just ready for it to be over by the time you get that last part done.

 

[Hold The Onion]

Is it possible to halt an enemy AI's space program entirely if you torch their Apollo city? If so, that might be a good method for buying time.

It's too bad that doesn't work because that would be awesome.

on a side note, I've wondered before if I torch the UN city if the UN goes away or do we still vote every few turns? It would be great to burn it before I'm forced into Environmentalism

 

[uncarved block]

KMad, IIRC, in Civ2 the SS parts could be built in other cities, but the actual "ship" was in your capitol. Theoretically, you could have just started over again, but it the AI was strong enough to torch your central city, chances were they could launch before then. The time thing was that you could build a bigger, slower ship, and if you weren't careful, an AI could launch a faster ship and beat you by a couple turns. (Happened to me a couple times, especially early on.)
Definitely added a bit of suspense to the end game that's been lacking in 3 and 4. Of course, as someone here pointed out, you could conquer most of the world with a spy and enough money, so there was . . um . . imbalance in other facets of the game

 

[KMadCandy]

first of all: what can i type that's actually on topic?

Is a cultural vic truly out of the question?

i don't know if anything is ever truly madly deeply out of the question. but i'm pretty confident in my ability to get a cultural victory if i put my mind to it, and i wouldn't be able to get one if i started at ths game at this save. i am of course little miss permanoob so that's not saying all that much, plenty of other people are better than me. it wouldn't be easy tho.

@uncarved block:
i loved that you could "buy" barbarians with spys, and if they were closer to enemy cities than your own, they were assigned to the magical home city of "NONE", meaning they never caused unhappiness by being too far from home. those were the days *giggle*. ah, the memories...

i distinctly remember that you had to choose how to design your ship, you picked a weight and an engine, part of it was speed and i forget what else, more people on it maybe? more safety? that was the reason you had to wait (and stay alive and maintain your capital) after the launch, to be sure your ship landed before anybody else's did. but that was cool. it wasn't just "build the same parts X Y 3xZ 5xC 7xB" or whatever each time. the press release info for beyond the sword said something about making the space race more strategic/tactical/i forget which buzzword. i hope it works i think it's kind of silly that in civ4 all you have to do is launch. we just automatically assume the ship gets there no problem. that'd be spiffy but given the rate our expected great scientists sometimes turn out to be great artists or great merchants, i'm not sure i'd bet my life on a spaceship they designed, you know?

there are definitely bits and pieces i'd take from each version of civ i've played if i was making one ultimate version. and i'd put in the UN-equivalent from SMAC on how you could bribe the other leaders to vote a certain way for you at the next council vote. they'd agree to do it, for X amount of credits, but then sometimes they wouldn't actually do it after taking your money! how cool is that?

i loved civ2, it was the first civ i ever played and the first computer game that introduced me to "one more turn"itis. but i honestly don't remember any games like this current mehmed one, knowing it would be a rough ride ahead, winnable if i put my mind to it, do things right, have some luck, monty has bad luck, and cathy magically has a good mood, but not being sure i can count on all those things happening together, not being confident i'd win. note that the "i" here is really me, not S. i have more faith in his abilities as a player (paricularly as a warmonger) than i do in my own. if he doesn't win, so be it, but i'm not getting all doom-and-gloom at this point is what i mean, just saying i'm too permanoob my own self to know that i personally could do it.

maybe i was just playing civ2 on too easy a level, or maybe the game really has changed and progressed that much. i miss the railroads tho. i loved the straight, oh-so-cute railroads that didn't curve around. they were just better!!!

on a side note, I've wondered before if I torch the UN city if the UN goes away or do we still vote every few turns? It would be great to burn it before I'm forced into Environmentalism

that question came up earlier today, about what happens if the city containing the UN is razed, but nobody replied with the answer last time i checked the thread. i got curious enough to try to search the forums for an answer but it was fruitless. i couldn't come up with the right terms to find the info, too many things contain the phrase "un" and the search function doesn't know i'm only interested in the uppercase i guess. i'm curious, have you ever been forced into environmentalism via UN? i never have. but if my games go that long it's usually because i'm trying for diplomatic victory myself, and i'd not call for that vote, so then by definition the UN couldn't force it on me. i rarely see the UN controlled by an AI; either i have it, or the game's been won by that point or maybe lost, but don't tell anybody, or i got bored and saved it to go back to some other day and probably forgot and never did go back to it *giggle*.

 

[cabert]

cultural is not out of question, but it would be a real gamble for the following reasons :
- it would require some more religions to come in cities (at least one!)
- it would require teching towards liberalism NOW! (should already be in in fact)
- it would require some backfilling of techs (since no trade is possible, asking politely could work but there is really no sure way to do it), including music if I'm not mistaken
- the military isn't up to date now, and it will get worse if cultural is pursued= tough diplomacy challenge
- it would require to grow those cottages (without sistin chapel, specialists just won't work), which requires democracy which is quite far away

 

[hellwitch]

I can't uderstand why in the whole ALC there is always fair wars. The name of this game is "divide and Own".All of you say "attack the strongest". I say aways attack the weeker for fast clear rewarding war .That way you become more competitive with the strongger rivals.

The the level here is Monarch so nothing is lost(all win types are still availiable). Sisiutil have 2 relegions and it is easy to make World War on the other continent by converting and bribing(+ the "Monty" factor). Just needed to survive till ate game.

 

[cabert]

I can't uderstand why in the whole ALC there is always fair wars. The name of this game is "divide and Own".All of you say "attack the strongest". I say aways attack the weeker for fast clear rewarding war .That way you become more competitive with the strongger rivals.

The the level here is Monarch so nothing is lost(all win types are still availiable). Sisiutil have 2 relegions and it is easy to make World War on the other continent by converting and bribing(+ the "Monty" factor). Just needed to survive till ate game.

I challenge you to take that game and go for any of the following :
- conquest
- domination
- time

Even diplomacy and cultural seem unlikely.
Only space is possible still, but highly difficult.

 

[pigswill]

While Sisiutil is a long way behind on techs its also worth considering that these are still relatively cheap techs so he could be for instance 10,000 beakers behind the pack and still catch up once his island is covered in towns and he's generating 500 beakers/turn more than the AI.

 

[cabert]

While Sisiutil is a long way behind on techs its also worth considering that these are still relatively cheap techs so he could be for instance 10,000 beakers behind the pack and still catch up once his island is covered in towns and he's generating 500 beakers/turn more than the AI.

In fact, being backwards can be leveraged .
With a switch to either no state religion or to buddhism, he can have a few pleased civs ready to give him a few techs.
How to proceed :
- get pleased first!
- ask for 1 cheap tech from each pleased AI asap
- wait for 20/30 turns
- repeat
The idea is to tech to a not so cheap while begging, then trade for more advanced techs.

 

[pigswill]

Definitely worth moving out of confucisianism particularly as you're not running any religious civics. Buddhism or NSR is trickier depending on whether you want to polarise or neutralise relations.

I'd forget building up an army, if someone goes for you you're dead, game over etc and half a dozen cats and a few axes won't change that. In fact unit maintenance is costing you 9gpt, you can get rid of your warriors as a start coz they ain't scaring anyone and by the time you can afford to upgrade them you won't need them. As part of demilitarisation I'd also suggest forget construction, go for calendar instead and check out the global market for sugar.

Edit: On the subject of demilitarisation switch Istanbul to working cottages instead of mines, you can grow to size 15 before hittings caps and the extra commerce is more use to you than the extra production.
Don't forget that you're only one courthouse away from Forbidden Palace so its worth thinking about best city for it.

 

[Heffling]

i distinctly remember that you had to choose how to design your ship, you picked a weight and an engine, part of it was speed and i forget what else, more people on it maybe? more safety? that was the reason you had to wait (and stay alive and maintain your capital) after the launch, to be sure your ship landed before anybody else's did. but that was cool. it wasn't just "build the same parts X Y 3xZ 5xC 7xB" or whatever each time. the press release info for beyond the sword said something about making the space race more strategic/tactical/i forget which buzzword. i hope it works i think it's kind of silly that in civ4 all you have to do is launch. we just automatically assume the ship gets there no problem. that'd be spiffy but given the rate our expected great scientists sometimes turn out to be great artists or great merchants, i'm not sure i'd bet my life on a spaceship they designed, you know?

From memory, you would build specific components. The ship had to have a minimum superstructure, and you could then add components. You had to build habitation pods to support colonists (and increase your score when your ship lands), and engines for speed. If everything was maxxed out it took like 10 turns, but you could go faster (less colonists) or slower (fewer engines) or a combination of both.

Don't forget to build a few tC's while you're building those 7 xB's!

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Slightly off-topic, but for KMad:

Remember the line from "Armaggedon" - "We're about to ride on top of a shipful of high explosives designed and built by the lowest bidder." Or something like that.

It does make you think you should have to make sure your ship makes it, although I can get some enjoyment out of nuking everyone on the planet just before launching.

It was even more challenging in Civ3, where as soon as you launched a nuke just about everyone would declare war on you no matter HOW powerful you were. I'd launch all my nukes about 5 turns before I was to launch, then just see how long I could keep from losing any cities while up against the entire world. The ultimate Scorched Earth policy - "We're leaving, don't follow us. And just to make sure you CAN'T follow us....better re-learn how to duck and cover."

 

[Janus0]

At this point in the game, I would probably set up a GP farm for engineers and start a beeline for the internet in hopes of snagging a space victory. Ally with the buddhist block and do your very best keep them at war with the others and consentrating on anything but their space ships.

It's late for culture and you're not philo.. domination requires you to be able to field an army against several technologicly supperior foes.

Diplomacy is probably your second best option if you take the time to switch to a full FE and back door it, but you'd probably still need some help.

Tough position to be in.

 

[ratrangerm]

As far as the techs Sisiutil should beg for, the only three I see he should put on his list are Hunting, Calendar and Alphabet.

If an AI invades Sisiutil with Knights, Spearmen will help a little in that aspect, and you need Hunting for Spearmen.

Alphabet should be one Sisutil can obtain, because he can trade techs with everybody else since everybody else has Alphabet. Plus, if Sisiutil did gamble on the Cultural victory, Alphabet would be needed for Drama (to get the Culture slider going and to build Theatres). EDIT: And I just checked, and Alphabet is also needed for Music, regardless of whether you follow the Drama path or the Literature path.

Calendar would allow for Plantations for the Sugar and another possible resouce to trade.

Otherwise, there aren't any techs I would beg for, because most others are either not necessary at this point or the AI would consider gifting the tech to give too much of an advantage away.

And as for the three I mentioned, I'd probably put Calendar at the top of the list.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Alphabet should be one Sisutil can obtain, because he can trade techs with everybody else since everybody else has Alphabet.

But for the same reason, Alphabet isn't as important to us. If everyone else has Alphabet, then you don't need it yourself for trading technologies. Its only value then is as a prerequisite -- for Drama, Literature, and indirectly Music and Military Tradition. Drama has some value in terms of happiness from theaters, but the others are mostly useless at this point. The Great Library has been built, we can't build the Heroic Epic, the National Epic would be useful, we don't need cathedrals because there's no way we're getting within miles of a cultural victory, and we're so far away from even thinking about needing Military Tradition for Cavalry that we don't even need to discuss that.

Plus, if Sisiutil did gamble on the Cultural victory, ...

If he gambles on the cultural victory, he's crazy. We have 2 religions in the empire, and every wonder we know about has already been built. Where is the culture going to come from?

Otherwise, there aren't any techs I would beg for, because most others are either not necessary at this point or the AI would consider gifting the tech to give too much of an advantage away.

You might be right, but that's not a good reason not to ask. As someone else mentioned earlier, if the AI doesn't want to give you a technology, they just say no. There's no diplomatic penalty for asking.

 

[Morgrad]

What a pickle!

If Cathy or Monty attacks in the near future, you're probably hosed - but, as a general rule of isolated island Civ warfare, I have found two things to usually be true:

1. AIs attacking across seas usually send wimpy landing parties sporadically instead of true stacks of doooooooooooom.

2. Enough catapults can repel almost any invasion.

Given that the AIs have grenadiers, rule #2 might not be true, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Cottages and Catapults are what you need. Do everything you can to be able to hurt an invasion force, even if it might be futile, and crank up your cottages to shoot for sufficient military techs to finally be able to breathe a sigh of relief about being attacked.

You can make up a huge amount of your tech disadvantage if you can get Steel before a couple of the AIs do - I doubt you'll get it first, and to have any chance, you need cottages doing their commerce thang.

If Monty and Catherine are gearing up to invade you, this game might be over - and badly. Here's hoping they're going to beat on each other instead........

 

[Civman123]

Monty ,shall we say isn't the best preparer for a wars. (like SoD with no ships) I'm more worried about Cathy and NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly. Cats save us

 

[cabert]

Monty ,shall we say isn't the best preparer for a wars. (like SoD with no ships) I'm more worried about Cathy and NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly. Cats save us

with the notable exception of catherine

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

NO leader will declare war if you're Friendly

with the notable exception of catherine

This has been discussed a few times in this thread. There seems to be some disagreement on the issue, so I decided to settle it once and for all by looking into the XML leader definitions. I'm not sure I'll succeed in resolving it definitively, but here's what I found.

This looks like the piece that controls whether a leader will or won't declare war based on his or her attitude.

<NoWarAttitudeProb>
    <AttitudeType>ATTITUDE_FRIENDLY</AttitudeType>
    <iNoWarProb>100</iNoWarProb>
</NoWarAttitudeProb>

Each leader has a series of these elements with different values for AttitudeType and iNoWarProb. Now, the critical point here is that every leader except Barbarians, including Catherine, has a value of 100 for Friendly.

Unless I'm misinterpreting it (which is entirely possible), that seems to say pretty indisputably that Catherine will not declare war if her attitude is Friendly. She will, however, declare war with a 20% chance (80% of no war) when she's Pleased. That's the highest value for any AI, but it's not unique. There are six other leaders that also have an 80 for Pleased.

One possible explanation for the controversy is that this value could be modified based on difficulty level. Then, for example, the leader would have a decreased chance of no war if you played a Diety game. That seems intuitively reasonable, but I can't find anything in the handicap level definitions that supports this theory. And even if it's true, that would change all of the 100's for Friendly leaders, not just Catherine's.

 

[shyuhe]

I think the idea is that Catherine can be bribed against friendly civs. She won't declare war on her own without anything against friendly though.