ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[KMadCandy]

But, anyway, this game wasn't in vain. It did show us how challenging an isolated start can be and kind of gave us a measure of how soon you need to get your economy going.

i 100% agree with that. seeing it was eye-opening for me, even before we met miss i-hate-her-i-hate-her. particularly given that it's been an awfully long time since i had an isolated start of my own. so long that i hadn't even realized how long it had been until i saw yours; i'd kind of forgotten they exist. i feel rather spoiled now. i'm off to knock on wood since i'm superstitious and hope i didn't jinx myself for my next games by saying that.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Everyone gets unlucky once in a while. You could play it out, but I would only suggest you play it out until someone starts building spaceship parts. Then, if things aren't looking better, *then* quit.

Today I tried playing Korea, on Monarch, just to relax. First I got hit by Hatty with her capital 4 tiles next to mine, so I spend the first 3 milienia freaking about war chariots and cultural pressure. Then I setup my usual great library, national epic for liberalism, and I got FOUR great artists in a row, each of them only TEN percent. That's one in ten thousand chance. The only other person on my continent was Tokugawa, and he never trades, period. So I had to research everything, and then I lost liberalism by 3 turns. Took me forever to take over the continent, then Mansa on the other frick-in far continent launched, with Isabella and Elizabeth as capitulated vassals.

Talk about fustration.

 

[NaZdReG]

wow that sucks man. isolated starts are auto rerolls for me personally but thats probably a skill level issue. atleast you stuck it out but honestly this game is lost. cathy's next stack is likely to arrive soon, and take your capitol or worse. still if you want to finish might as well, but might be better to just move on to the next game

NaZ

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Actually, isolated starts are playable. But you need to get the economy up much faster than S did, preferably an SE at first. It still would be more difficult than a normal game at the same difficulty level, though.

Seeing this game makes me feel better about the hash I've made of games in similar circumstances. Although S did far better than I have ever achieved. It would be nice to see a successful recovery from such a position.

However I do appreciate the large amount of work involved from S in running these challenges so I think S should give this game up. In the end there's no enjoyment to be had for S given the current state of the game. Perhaps in the future when S feels like more of a challenge?

For the next game I think it's worth someone else checking the game first to avoid a similar start happening.

 

[pigswill]

The scary part about the current save is that all your cities are redded out so currently no chance of buying peace from Cathy.
I did actually play on a few turns from your 1370 save, I swopped to NSR instead of buddhism and was doing ok up to 1510 (I gave up at that point because it was peaceful, I was getting on ok with AIs, research was up to 70% and I'd completed my shadow already).
You should carry on from this save as hopeless as it currently seems (but maybe Cat will accept peace after another couple of cities, you swop out of buddhism (and maybe check out her fave civic)). The game ain't lost until its lost.
You could for your own education replay your game from last posted save except go NSR istead of buddhism to see if Cat still attacks.

 

[Steppin' Razor]

Wow, rough luck. An educational ALC game for me regardless of the outcome. I moved up to Prince a few weeks ago and was able to get my first isolated win on that difficulty last week, thanks in part to the strategy discussions earlier in this thread.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Hmmm..well, it'd be a good idea to break down your defense in-depth. I'm sure there aren't many of us experienced with fighting under a sizable tech DEFICIT. It could be enlightening. Definitely, definitely looking bad, but I still think it can happen. Of course, I am optimistic almost to the point of being blind to the possibility of unfavorable outcomes, especially when judging others, so take my upbeat attitude with a grain of salt....

 

[Sisiutil]

If you do decide to continue you might want to go to 0% research to try to build up a cash reserve to buy peace with Cathy. Also take a look at your cities, some are working tiles.

I agree about the tiles, but I was trying to max out hammers to get units built. Kind of an emergency sitch, ya know? I'll switch the tile assignments first thing.

Does this mean you will retry Mehmed if things go wrong?

Don´t worry about the shadow games. Knowing that you are isolated right from the start makes a HUGE difference in a game..

I haven't even looked at the shadow games. I was very glad that those were carried off to a separate thread. I would suggest that those so inclined continue that trend in future ALC games.

As for retrying Mehmed... probably not, or maybe sometime later. I know he didn't get a fair shake in this game because of the start, but I think a retry would be too repetitive. I may come back to him later, but frankly, I'm more inclined to move on to one of the other leaders many of you have been clamoring at me to try on for size.

While it was educational to try out an isolated start, I will be avoiding them in future ALCs. The main reason is that they obviously make it difficult if not impossible to give me a chance to leverage all of the leader's unique characteristics. Case in point: I really doubt that Janissaries are going to see ANY action in this game. And the Hammams have not been as big a help as we all thought they would be. So I will be PMing the initial saves to Welnic from now on, who has graciously volunteered to do an initial check of them for me to ensure that the map is conducive to the goals of the ALC. I like fractal maps, but I almost always restart when they give me an isolated start.

Man, I freakin hate Catherine. If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives.

Best. Leader. Description. EVAR.

Impressive effort, and I hope we see a new start soon. Continuing this game isn't worth the time.

You should carry on from this save as hopeless as it currently seems (but maybe Cat will accept peace after another couple of cities, you swop out of buddhism (and maybe check out her fave civic)). The game ain't lost until its lost.

Consistent advice as usual.

I think I will continue the game just to see how things play out. We've all seen how hopeless the AI can actually be at achieving a victory, so who knows? I mean, Cathy's invasion stack was actually rather pathetic. In most games I would have wiped it out before it had a chance to do any damage. We all know that for an inter-continental invasion you should bring along at least three or four times the units she did. It was only the fact that I was SO backward that she met with any success. I had no military units because they would have been too primitive to deter an invasion or effectively fight against it. Though in retrospect, I probably should have switched all my city builds to Catapults as soon as I got Construction, but hindsight is 20/20, right?

In any case, I'm interested in playing it out just because I, like most of you, would normally have abandoned this game at any of 3 points: (a) when I discovered I was isolated; (b) when I met the other civs and saw how far behind I was; and (c) when Cathy invaded. I can't help wondering if I sometimes quit too easily. What happens if I don't? I guess we'll find out.

 

[Bhruic]

I'd actually have put a (d) in there (well, chronologically, it'd be (b)), when you got raped by the Barbs. By keeping you from early expansion/tile improvement, they pretty much killed your game. I think it would have been possible to recover, but only if too many things went perfectly - which we've seen didn't happen. Closer Copper or Horses, or a faster hookup of them might have made this game a much easier one. In theory, at least.

Still, it's been a great read.

Bh

 

[pigswill]

If you never play isolated starts then you'll never learn how to beat isolated starts. Tougher yes, as tough as the jump to emperor, no.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Well, it's hard to traverse the learning curve of playing isolated while writing up the game as a demonstration. Isolated starts are all about developing a coherent economic plan & choosing the techs that are absolutely necessary to carry out that plan. Yeah, there are lots of techs that need to be backfilled, but when played right, even when isolated, it's possible to stay at or near the leading edge of techs with the AI. I played a shadow game, following the early HR/Bureaucracy/CE template & played to a peaceful space race win in 1911. The only time Janissaries ever fired a shot in anger was against a barbarian Longbow. That kind of a game is going to be boring for people to read about, but there's arguably more strategizing in isolated games than the typical build an army and steamroll as many neighbors as possible game. People do like conflict, I suppose.

Anyway, you're a good sport for giving this isolated start a go. It was strange to see the shoe on the other foot, militarywise.

 

[Kietharr]

Going to have to say that you're beaten. Cathy invaded much earlier than I expected she would, if you had the time to hit chemistry you probably could have survived verses her cossacks, although I don't doubt that you would have lost a city or two still.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I must be one of the few people out there who loves isolated starts.
I definitely enjoy the challenge.

 

[curtadams]

If you're going to try to fight on, you need to concentrate on military. I think you should push to Gunpowder for the Jans - Jans + cats will actually kill units with a passable tradeoff. The war won't end until Cathy's back is breaking from war weariness and that's obviously going to need a lot of dead knights. Continual war with Cathy will kill you because she's going to be more advanced for a very, very long time.

 

[KMadCandy]

Man, I freakin hate Catherine.

me too!

If she's not spreading her legs, she's sharpening her knives.

are we absolutely positively sure she never does both at the same time?

 

[PublicEnemy]

If you're going to try to fight on, you need to concentrate on military. I think you should push to Gunpowder for the Jans - Jans + cats will actually kill units with a passable tradeoff. The war won't end until Cathy's back is breaking from war weariness and that's obviously going to need a lot of dead knights. Continual war with Cathy will kill you because she's going to be more advanced for a very, very long time.

Yep, get gunpowder before continuing the beeline to democracy.
Once you've got democracy you'll have Jans and Cavalry, at least then you'll have a fighting chance.

 

[scy12]

me too!



are we absolutely positively sure she never does both at the same time?

She can sharpen my knife any day of the week ...

 

[Hackapell]

I agree that you should grab Jans and calvary, but keep in mind that will require some deviaton from the beeline. If you grab democracy and hang on, you may be able to bribe catherine into peace.

 

[kniteowl]

I can't check the save game right now but I don't know how close you are to GP(Gunpowder) tech wise, If you do decide to make a beeline for that tech, which route is faster? The north or South route?

Do you have Fuedalism & Guilds?

How close is your GS gonna pop For education lightbulb?

Well' I'm gonna bet on the northen route for a quicker beeline, although the South Route seems more military Better, if you still have Iron and Horses hooked up by the time you get Guilds you can defend yourself with Knights and later Pinch Knights which are more effective against Grenadiers then Pinch Jans because of the higher strength.

I haven't check your save but it appears that your pop is low and your Research has taken a hit due to all that whipping and working production orientated tiles. If you have any chance of a defence, I Suggest Focusing and commerce and Pray you'll reach that key tech before Cathy reaches you with her units.

If she comes with Cossacks it's as good as over unless you can research Engineering in time for Pikes.

Btw what have you learned from this Isolation start?

I've been playing a couple of Isolated games and realized that.

A) Defending against Barbs, Hooking up Horses or Copper ASAP is 1st Priority. If they’re too far away, Archery or Sailing needs to be Researched Immediately. Sailing because I've had resources on the other end of my Continent once and I started with Fishing (and not Hunting) seemed like a better choice. Also Do not Settle your 2nd city until you know you have a relatively high chance that you'll survive the Barb Attack (includes Pillaging). I believe you said in a previous post that Barbs don't attack until you have (n+1) Cities on your continent or something like that...

B) Monarchy is very important tech if your island is low on Happiness Resources or they'll take too long to hook up eg - calendar resources. You need to raise the Capital’s Pop ASAP to work those Cottages.

C) Great People are very important for light bulbing, depending on your tech goal, they're be very important for tech trading once you contact the AI.

I've beelined to Optics by 800AD in one game once, it required Oracle SS(Slingshot) to MC and 2 GS to light bulb Machinery & Optics.

If your Capital Focused the Oracle SS to Monarchy, 1st GP is a GS for Academy 2nd GP is a GM for CS SS. Remember to beeline to Currency early for Markets. This method makes researching Techs a Whole lot easier.

If your Philosophical the Philosophy beeline would appear to be the better option. Oracle SS to COL and Create a GS to LB(lightbulb) Philosophy then switch to Pacifism.

Lesson learn next time we play an Isolated start we need to focus on those things, Barb Defence and Economy. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hackapell]

I checked and it seems that he's only 2 techs (finishing printing press and Nationalism) from military tradition and only 1 tech(education) from gunpowder. While nationalism is on the beeline to democracy, Education isn't, so unless you're counting on a GS lightbulbing it for you, Gunpowder seems far, far off. Even though the Janissaries are very powerful against all units older than them, Sisiutil is behing EVERYONE on techs, and therefore most of our rivals probably already have gunpowder. So I see calvary as being our go-to unit to attack quickly, plug up gaps and lead counter-charges. Unfortunaly, we may never see the Janissaires in their prime.