ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: 1520 AD to 1836 AD
Part 1

I started the round with Philosophy in hand, a tech which only Montezuma did not possess. Unfortunately, he wasn't willing to trade any techs for it, but he was willing to part with some gold:

This turned out to be one of the best moves I made in a dismal game. It improved Monty's attitude towards me from "Annoyed" to "Cautious", and suddenly he was willing to have Open Borders and trade techs. Not that I had anything to trade to him, but that would soon change.

I also went about reclaiming some of the land I'd lost:

The first city reclaimed that much-needed gold (for happiness, especially when combined with forges), while the second city secured the fifth sugar tile and put cultural pressure on Stuttgart.

My next Great Person appeared, but was not a Great Scientist, unfortunately:

Pop him for Polytheism? What the heck for? I settled him in Edirne, my shrine city, for the extra income. That was definitely the best use for him.

And I was back to my usual tricks, changing civics like I'm spiritual when I'm not. Once I researched Constitution I changed to Representation and Caste System; then, several turns later, I finished researching Democracy...

To help with cottage growth, of course.

In addition, neither Cyrus nor Monty had Democracy, and both, like me, were suffering from the unhappiness caused by all those other civs running it. So I was able to get some decent techs out of it:

And Cyrus also threw in, FINALLY, a world map, and a very complete one at that:

By the way, if you venture into the save, you'll find that Moscow has no less than two friggin' gold mines in its fat cross. Both of them--wait for it--next to rivers. Frankly, for all the talk about careful economic management when you're isolated, I think the deck was stacked against me this time.

Catherine kept refusing to reach a peaceful settlement, even after I built up over 500 gold in my treasury. Instead, a few turns later, she landed another stack:

Catapults against Cossacks... yeah, that's a fair fight. Give me some credit, I still didn't give up. Diyarbakir fell on the next turn, of course:

What I did was I left only one unit in each city, a weak one at that, and sent all the others to Antalya. I eventually managed to take down all of those Cossacks, though it cost me several units, mostly Catapults, Spearmen, and Macemen. I also sent a few Catapults at her Artillery and SAM Infantry. Catherine then turtled, hiding in that forested tile within German territory. I left my forces sitting in Antalya, waiting for her units to venture out into open ground. She had tech and strength on me, but I had numbers: over a dozen catapults, and nearly as many Macemen. She stayed hidden. Smart girl. Well, no she's not really that smart, and has about as much courage as your average chicken, but I would have done the same thing after a failed invasion attempt.

I finished researching Liberalism (finally!) and switched civics again, and for the last time in the game:

I was hoping that Free Speech would help with the economy, as well as reclaiming a few more tiles, and that Free Religion would help with happiness, research, and diplomatic relations. Catherine, however, still refused to consider a cease fire, never mind peace.

I was now starting to gain some techs on the AI. Well, on Monty, at least:

So Monty was turning into my best buddy! Go figure. He's my Mansa Musa in this game. Yes, that tells you just how sad my situation was!

Unfortunately Monty decided to get a little too friendly:

Hmmm, yeah, Monty right on my doorstep. That's a comforting though. And with Riflemen, no less. And look at how fraidy-cat Cathy ducked her units into that city on a hill!

Fortunately, a few turns later, I had a useful tech for a good defensive unit, especially to counter any Rifles coming my way:

Thus far, I'd held off two invasions by the AI. I'd lost a little territory, but still had a decent-sized civ going. My GNP was going up, along with my power rating. I set my focus on a bee-line to the Internet, hoping to get swamped with techs which I could trade, and maybe finally get Cathy to sign a peace treaty. I was far behind, but not without hope.

Then the wheels came off.

To be continued...

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: 1520 AD to 1836 AD
Part 2

As the round started, I had still more reason to be optimistic. I got another Great Scientist:

I can't recall what he would have lightbulbed, but it wasn't on the route to the Internet, and it wasn't anything everybody else didn't have. So an Academy seemed like the best use for him.

Not everything was looking up, however. Cathy still adamantly refused my peaceful overtures, and decided to harass me further:

That Battleship made short work of my pathetic Triremes and my fishing boats. So I had growth problems in two of my coastal cities, and health problems almost everywhere. Grrr...

I then obtained another useful military technology:

Cannon! Wonderful. Much more effective at ruining an invader's day than Catapults.

With Steel in hand, I now decided to pursue my desperate, hail Mary bee-line:

There were a lot of useful, trade-worthy techs along the way. If I could just hold off Cathy, I might actually have a chance at some form of victory.

As I mentioned, my GNP was on the rise:

I was also starting to slowly steal tiles from the foreign cities on my island.

One possible victory condition got removed, however. Frederick completed the UN, and Catherine, the largest civ, became his competitor in the SG elections:

Part of me was kind of hoping Catherine would attempt a diplomatic victory, so I could end this game the way aelf did his recent IMC.

Then I got another cause for hope:

YES!! Crazy Monty declared war on the most technologically advanced civ on the planet! I was hoping this would distract her from me. Maybe she'd even finally agree to peace so she could focus on one enemy rather than two.

And it might have turned out that way, if it wasn't for the next-lowest guy on the totem pole deciding that I looked like a tasty treat:

And yet... and yet... I STILL didn't give up! I held off two of Cathy's pathetic-though-costly attempts at invasion. I was determined to show Huayna that I was not to be trifled with, power rating notwithstanding. I'm a human, and smarter than any AI leader! I'm not afraid of you punks! Do your worst, Inca boy!

Okay, maybe you didn't need to take me quite so literally there. It's just a figure of speech.

Marsin fell, of course, and Huayna razed it. So much for my gold--Frederick settled right on top of it a few turns later. Huayuna managed to take out most of my nearest city defenders with those annoying gunships, but of course, they couldn't actually capture any cities. And stupidly, he left his ground units lounging around on the coast. I was eventually able to bring down every chopper, and even wiped out his Marine, Artillery, and Infantry, though not without incurring heavy, heavy losses.

Meanwhile, in the northeast, Catherine had captured that Aztec city. Time for me to get a little revenge!

Besides, maybe if I took a Russian city, it would be one more reason why Catherine would consider a peace treaty. Or so I thought, but things didn't turn out that way.

Still, though the storm clouds were definitely gathering, there was the occasional ray of sunshine, even if it came from an unlikely source:

So here I was, battered and bruised, but hanging on, determined to go down swinging. I had now fought off three AI invasions, and had survived! Heck, I'd even earned a Great General and had captured an enemy city. So I was still feeling somewhat hopeful.

But there's nothing like a bunch of Russian tanks to ruin your day.

Yes, gang, at that point, I retired. I know when I'm beat. I realized that during this whole round, despite all of my valiant efforts, I'd just been prolonging the inevitable.

The power graph tells the sorry tale:

As does the pathetic final score:

Still, there were some useful lessons to be learned from this game, I think.

First off, an isolated start makes it necessary to plan for barbs carefully. With no strategic resources in the capital's fat cross after BW and AH were researched, I probably should have researched Archery before founding any cities. I then should have spawned and positioned a lot more fog-busters. I probably also would have thereby gained a lot of good defensive units that just might have come in handy later on.

I think the pursuit of the Oracle may have been a mistake. I should have given up on wonder-chasing sooner rather than later and focused on rapid expansion and getting the CE up to full gear. Then again, if I'd been able to handle the barbs better so I wasn't so far behind in expansion, maybe it wouldn't have been out of the question.

I also think that I was way too sanguine about my military. Granted I was far behind in techs, but as my handling of the invasions showed, if I'd had enough units on hand from the start, I could have fended off Cathy's incursions even more easily.

All that being said, however, as I noted, the deck was definitely stacked against me in this game and very much in favour of the AI. (Two gold mines? Both on a river? Sheesh!) The lack of any strategic resources in the capital's fat cross was a very difficult handicap to overcome, especially for an isolated start where barbs are going to come out of the woodwork as soon as that 2nd city is founded.

I look forward to your assessments of how this game could have gone better. I won't be attempting Mehmed again in an ALC, or at least not for some time. I'll also be avoiding isolated starts. Though it was worthwhile to try one, it doesn't allow me to highlight the leaders' unique characteristics to their best advantage, which is the whole raison d'etre for the ALC series.

The save below if from the turn following my resignation. Next up is Persia and Cyrus, a leader I've been looking forward to trying on for size for quite some time. I need a little time off to drown my sorrows, though. Well, actually, to play a game as Rome and kick some butt. I think I'll customize the game and hope Cathy shows up right next door to me . So I probably won't start the Cyrus game until next week.

Meanwhile, tell me what you thought of this one!

 

[darkiguana]

Kudos for keeping up the good fight for as long as you did. I probably would have given up long before then. Isolated starts suck

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Too bad...Tanks are really beyond the point where you can hope to hold out....

 

[kniteowl]

No isolated starts??? not even for Ragnar???

If you ever have an isolated start again I Think it's best to plan a heard especially against the barbs

 

[curtadams]

Going for archers is a valid strategy but I think the critical mistake was the location of Edrine. It wasn't next to the copper so you had to wait for a pop before you built axemen *plus* it didn't have any food resource in the critical early period, since the rice was jungled. Two games in the spoiler thread were won, and in both Edrine was founded immediately adjacent to the copper. I still think between the copper and the cow was the place to go, although one win had Edrine on the other side. Basically you *have* to have a military resource *immediately* on founding the second city in these isolated starts.

Two things that I think hurt were chasing the Oracle and the nonwar footing on encountering Cathy. After the massive hit from barbs, with neither marble nor Industrious, the Oracle wasn't going to be the best use of resources. Consider that there really is no *worse* time to chase a Marble wonder. Likewise once you saw Cathy looked hostile military should have been your #1 goal. Techs should have been chosen with that in mind and you should have stayed in Slavery.

Anyway, kudos on an absolutely incredible run of wins. You're an outstanding player and fantastic writer. The ALC series is the best part of this site, both as education and as entertainment. You've also got a lot more spine than most (especially me!) I never would have stuck it out so long, or done so well against overwhelming military odds.

 

[TheArchduke]

You held out bravely, I salut you.

I gotta admit that my tolerance of core cities being razed! by the AI is very, very low. Capturing sucks, but razing is definetly too ugly for my taste.

And Montezuma as friend and saviour, this game was crazy indeed!

 

[KMadCandy]

Going for archers is a valid strategy but I think the critical mistake was the location of Edrine. It wasn't next to the copper so you had to wait for a pop before you built axemen *plus* it didn't have any food resource in the critical early period, since the rice was jungled. Two games in the spoiler thread were won, and in both Edrine was founded immediately adjacent to the copper. I still think between the copper and the cow was the place to go, although one win had Edrine on the other side. Basically you *have* to have a military resource *immediately* on founding the second city in these isolated starts.

i think back then we didn't realize just how immediate the need was. at the time, nobody reminded S that "oh by the way, settling your second city will be the trigger event for barbs to show up and harass your cities, since you are isolated". we knew that we were isolated and we knew they would come at some point, and he was researching mysticism before he settled coppertown, because he knew he'd need the border pop. he just didn't realize that settling the second city would be the start of what surely seemed to him like endless waves of barbarians, i think. i know i didn't realize it would be.

so it was definitely a learning experience in that way for me.

 

[Borealis]

Delurking to say thank you for these games, and for playing this start out - isolated starts are difficult for me, and watching this helped me learn a great deal about what to do and what not to do. It's also given me a warning about Catherine, who is almost always my best friend in most games. I didn't know she was so prone to backstabbing.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

You did a lot better on a lonely island than Dan Quayle ever would. I'm looking forward to the next one. Cyrus is a great warmonger. I once had a Persian maceman with Combat V and City Raider 3. Pwnage.

 

[Jet]

Good chutzpah in the end. Suggestions -
* yeah, a more meat and potatoes start with no Oracle.
* on an island one should milk a barb city for a level 4 unit. Alphabet -> Literature is a diversion, but you can treat Literature as key tech like Code of Laws for which you restrain your expansion until you can research it.
* dropping more science. In the 1280 save, about a third of your population was working non-resource production tiles instead of cottages. Settling lots of far-flung cities, needing to catch up to the AI, and not needing a big military all call for that. Alternatively you could have run 2 scientists in every city and switched each one to cottages after it popped a GS, but you weren't really doing that either.
* loading the capital with military police, population, and cottages. Because of Expansive and Organized and Hammams, Mehmed is good for Bureaucracy on an island. And in general a big cottage capital can pull a lot of weight.
* likewise, doing GP farming not in the capital, at least in this case. In 1280 for example, Bursa could have worked 2 scientists and a grass cottage instead of 2 plains forests and a plains mine, keeping a food surplus of 3 and freeing Istanbul for cottages.
* no SR after AI Astronomy and maybe after AI Optics would have been better for diplomatic safety. In a hard game I think one can only keep a steady religion if one has the diplomatic and military situation somewhat under control.

I'm not sure I agree that isolated starts prevent you from showing off leader unique characteristics. Even with Aggressive, for example, Cover Warriors can sort of stand up to barb Archers. Or with Janissaries, in a shadow game (one where unusually I did better than the ALC hive mind) going for space race I put off Chemistry and Rifling and spammed deterrent Janissaries long after they were not truly competitive. But they have a good weight on the power graph, in between Musketmen and Grenadiers, and I never got invaded. Etc.

 

[lukep]

The real stopper in this game is imho you neither had the size of cities nor the economy to research fast enough.

In my shadow game, i let my cities grow quickly with a SE start (+5 food per cities), working cottages only when i had more surplus and no room for specialist (not under caste system).

this act 2 fold :

- Size 10 cities put you much higher on the power graph even if they are defended by a single warrior, and act as a detterent to invasion,
- your research speed is correct, i was beaten to liberalism by only 2 turn, and did invest some turns in an unneeded tech (dont recall which one) before, so it was possible.

And i started from you 500 BC save, where things were already setted a way i did not like.

I also agree wih others on cities placement. Especially, the city on coast east of capital was huge on my game, and i founded it as soon as possible. Erdine location was good dotmap, except the need for border pop killed you .

That said, you did quite well because this start was really hard, but you could have fared a bit better by listening more to the collective hive mind.

 

[patagonia]

In my opinion isolated starts are easier with philosophical leaders (with judicious lightbulbing you can get to optics very early), and this one was definitely tough in view of the lack of happy.

However, a couple of things that may have improved matters:

As others have said, settling city 2 adjacent to the copper for earlier axes.

Also, when isolated and under no pressure to grab the best city sites ASAP, the pyramids become a viable option. Representation would have done you the world of good in the first few thousand years of this game and there were enough hills in your capital to make them a viable option. The best way out of the hole the RNG had dumped you in was to run an SE initially and then transition to a pure CE with Emancipation getting your cottages up and running. Pyramids aren't essential for this by any means, but they definitely make it easier.

As for Cyrus in the next ALC, in my opinion he's the best warmonger in the game - imperialistic and charismatic just work so well together (cheap promotions and loads of GGs), and unless you have Shaka with bronze as a neighbour, nothing can stand up to Immortals. Just pray for horsies.

 

[Killroyan]

Well, all good things must come to an end and I guess this is the end of your winning streak. Damn tough start but still you played well. Better then I would have done and even fought on when your cities got razed. When that is happening I usually quit so good job hanging in there so long. The invasion stack by huayna was hilarious btw with your comments.

Looking forward to the Cyrus game. Imp and Cha is just great. Immortals ask for a quick rush even more then war chariots. Now go play the romans, kick Cathy's behind and get back in the saddle again.

 

[Fetch]

Good effort, Sisiutil. What was the victory condition and who met it? I'm guessing Diplo, since I didn't see any parts being built.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

So I probably won't start the Cyrus game until next week.

You might consider posting the pregame thread and/or the start sooner. I can certainly sympathize with your needing a break, but those early discussions take so long that it might be nice to get them out of the way ahead of time.

 

[Scaphism]

You did much better against Cathy's pillagers than I would have believed. It's distressing that at no point would she consider a cease fire. From what I gather she wasn't interested in anything you had.

Re: Border pops and isolated starts. I too think getting a military resource in the first ring is really important if you're not creative. On Epic speed a monument costs 45 hammers and takes 15 turns to pop the second ring. That's likely a minimum of 20 turns if you chop a forest and work a 3H tile (30 from forest, and forested plain hill for 5 turns). Without chopping or an improved resource it's more likely 25-30 turns for the first border pop, meanwhile the barbs are already on their way. It's easy to get caught up in the "perfect dotmap" dilemma; I think this situation was a good reminder that early cities have different priorities than later ones.

Re: Oracle. Marble is *rarely* a consideration when going for the Oracle - the problem is never production, it's research. There are too many techs you need to research to pop CoL in time to beat the AI. Even if you pop masonry from a hut (I have) Marble has to be in your cultural borders already (unlikely) and your better tiles need to be improved. Marble is generally on par with a mine, and takes 8 or 9 turns to build. I usually have other, better things for my workers to do.

I also understand the appeal of CoL in this game, or any game with an Organized leader. Founding a religion, unlocking cheap courthouses and Caste System (a good civic) is a powerful lure.
Do you really think it's such a bad idea to found your own religion on an isolated start? Is Monarchy enough when you have so few happiness resources?

Going for the Oracle is almost a fundamental part of my game - usually my decision path goes something like: Scout initial area, decide initial build order (scout/warrior/worker/boat), choose initial tech path (agriculture/Animal Husbandry/Bronze Working). Once those are taken care of and a military resource is spotted I make an almost automatic check to see if the Oracle is a reasonable goal. If it is, then a beeline is necessary at that point (even more true at Emperor).

In this game, I'd say it was - there were plenty of forests, few happiness resources, and the appeal for an Organized leader is even stronger. I'm curious, does anyone else thinks going for the Oracle was really a mistake in this situation?

Here's something I've wondered for a while: Is there a list of dates/ranges when each wonder is "typically" completed by the AI at various speeds/difficulty levels? That would be a useful resource to have.

 

[vormuir]

Great game, and kudos to you for hanging in there.

A couple of thoughts.

1) I can understand you not wanting to do an isolated start again any time soon. However, they are part of the game -- they occur about 2% of the time on Continents maps, and about 15-20% of the time on Fractal. And it's very educational for the rest of us! So, maybe after a few games...?

2) I agree with the poster who said it's much easier with a Philo leader. With Caste System and thoughtful lightbulbing you can get to Optics before you've fallen too far behind.

3) Have you looked at the games in the spoiler thread? Thoughts or comments?


Waldo

 

[pax]

Thanks for sticking it out as long as you did.

I'm not going to offer criticisms on the isolated start. I admit that when that happens, I'll often play a game three or four times. My brain can only be in isolation mode for so long, and I'll have to backtrack, once my mind wanders and I start playing as if I had neighbors.

Regarding the next round: I'm all in favor of customizing the game to ensure that Cathy shows up. Nothing wrong with a bit of sweet revenge. Plus, maybe you could vassalize her, if you know what I mean.

If you have the time and inclination, posting the pre-game thread would be terrific. But I'd totally understand if you needed a break.

 

[KMadCandy]

1) I can understand you not wanting to do an isolated start again any time soon. However, they are part of the game -- they occur about 2% of the time on Continents maps, and about 15-20% of the time on Fractal. And it's very educational for the rest of us! So, maybe after a few games...?

they're part of the game, and everyone trying to improve their play has to learn how to play them sometime. but they're just a general fact of civ life, not a leader-specific issue. i agree with what S said earlier:

While it was educational to try out an isolated start, I will be avoiding them in future ALCs. The main reason is that they obviously make it difficult if not impossible to give me a chance to leverage all of the leader's unique characteristics. Case in point: I really doubt that Janissaries are going to see ANY action in this game. And the Hammams have not been as big a help as we all thought they would be. So I will be PMing the initial saves to Welnic from now on, who has graciously volunteered to do an initial check of them for me to ensure that the map is conducive to the goals of the ALC. I like fractal maps, but I almost always restart when they give me an isolated start.

cyrus is seriously fun. even i can wipe out entire continents surprisingly early in the game if i play cyrus. i'm mad at him this week for being a big sneak-attack bully and tech-runaway in a current game, but i'll try not to hold that against you. i hope you plan to have Welnic check to eliminate "no ponies in sight anywhere" starts, like somebody did in the kublai game.