ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[Charou]

Sisiutil,
Any luck with confucianism spreading on its own ? You need the culture and the happiness to expand throughtfully your continent. Don´t leave any gaps for the Ai to set foot on, you still have time though.
As for a particular religion civic, I am not sure. You usually run OR at this time, but you would lose valuable time researching Monotheism and the benefits of running OR is less than average since you already have cheap granaries and courthouses.

 

[r_rolo1]

There are a lot of prophets of doom around here , but I must agree that things aren't looking easy....
In my point of view the more acheivable victory types are space ( cottage spam, Emancipation, maybe Internet ( if needed ) and maybe Space elevator too ) and Caste system powered late Cultural victory ( the one that you described in your strategy article ( needs beeline to Philosophy and taoism is already founded ; also asks for Sistine chapel.... tricky) ) , and I would stick to aelf's plan: ReX, cottage, Emancipation, .... , Space.

About city sites, maybe the cow/iron spot in the north could be next, or the cow/clam in the west, or maybe near the horses in the east ( less fogbusting )

Ankara needs a lighthouse....

About the barb city ... The city placement of barbs takes in account all the resourses, so I'm betting that an oil/uranium in the desert or a coal/aluminium in the hills are waiting to be discovered. But it overlaps with the double fish city.... raze or not to raze.... well, it's your call .

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I think the key to winning isolated starts is NOT to think of them as boring. In fact, it's all the more important to go on automated mode. To Aelf: I think Sisiutil went on autopilot mode, that's why he didn't rush-build the library. Don't go autopilot. Work out every meticulous detail. It'll be a shame to let this game go - the hammams are truly spectacular for this.

I still believe a liberalism-astronomy is possible, should you try hard enough. If not, but you still want to go for liberalism anyway, consider divine right. The hapiness bonus from Islam might help (trade theology from the AI once you meet them with caravels).

I really don't see how this game is lost. It's not. Monarch has launch dates of 18xx at the earliest, giving your cottages plenty of time to tech up and conquer.

 

[Pe Ell]

It's bad, but not horrible. You have plenty of room to settle a respectable number of decent cities. I'd minimize army, go settler-worker heavy and spam cottages. Screw liberalism, go for optics instead. Cultural victory would be fun to watch, I'm really bad at those myself.

 

[Whitefire]

Damn. What happened to the SE? You had Writing a little after 1000BC and you were still slow-building a library in the capital at 355BC. Why didn't you whip it much earlier? You didn't mention running scientists. They would've helped you a lot with research. You probably are doing so by now, but you really should have done that since long ago.

If you didn't want to go with an SE (which I think is necessary for Liberalism), you should have gotten started on a CE, but apparently that didn't happen either

Tch, you took the words out of my mouth. The downfall came with this comment.

I also began employing the whip as my cities grew in order to hurry the infrastructure along:

You should have been whipping settlers and let buildings/units slowly build. The objective here is to REX as fast as possible, tanking research for awhile instead of slowly expanding and tanking research forever. I would suggest Sis, that you drop the research slider to 0% and settle everything you can. Then, build/whip a Worker and Courthouse in every city. Once those are completed, say goodbye to Slavery and jump to Caste System. Count on your merchants/scientists to keep you alive.

Can you replay that last set of turns perhaps?

 

[aelf]

I still believe a liberalism-astronomy is possible, should you try hard enough. If not, but you still want to go for liberalism anyway, consider divine right. The hapiness bonus from Islam might help (trade theology from the AI once you meet them with caravels).

I really don't see how this game is lost. It's not. Monarch has launch dates of 18xx at the earliest, giving your cottages plenty of time to tech up and conquer.

It's strange that you recommend cottaging up and going for Liberalism-Astronomy at the same time. Why not grab Nationalism and make a beeline to Democracy?

You should have been whipping settlers and let buildings/units slowly build.

The libraries, though, could not wait.

 

[cabert]

true about libraries, how can you expect to avoid prophets if you don't run scientists?
A change to caste system would have made it possible to slow build, though.

 

[Sisiutil]

cultural is virtually impossible without a great number of religions.

I respectfully disagree. I won a cultural victory as Qin on Prince once, from an isolated start, with only one religion.

Damn. What happened to the SE?

The SE struck me as a non-starter due to the lack of neighbours to (a) beat up for gold and/or (b) trade lightbulbed techs with.

Sisiutil- you need to man-up here.

Right. I'm off to consume mass quantities of dead animal flesh and fermented hops-based beverages whilst watching popular sporting events clad only in my underwear. I'm leaving the toilet seat down, though, just so I can tell the divorce court judge I did something right.

Sisiutil,
Any luck with confucianism spreading on its own ?

As I recall, it spread to my 2 newest cities on its own, even before the shrine was built. I suspect I'll have to build very few missionaries.

 

[aelf]

The SE struck me as a non-starter due to the lack of neighbours to (a) beat up for gold and/or (b) trade lightbulbed techs with.

On this account you are mistaken, comrade. An SE doesn't need neighbours. Like I said, you only need to trade to backfill techs. And that can happen after you've won the Liberalism race. And you don't have to be going to war for plunder either. Specialist beakers and lightbulbing are all you need for a healthy SE.

 

[Sisiutil]

On this account you are mistaken, comrade. An SE doesn't need neighbours. Like I said, you only need to trade to backfill techs. And that can happen after you've won the Liberalism race. And you don't have to be going to war for plunder either. Specialist beakers and lightbulbing are all you need for a healthy SE.

Thus betraying my limited experience with the SE. Maybe I should play a few more off-line games with it.

 

[Scaphism]

I think aelf has it right, and after reading his late-game comeback as Montezuma on Immortal I'm inclined to think you can do the same, following a similar plan. He had very few tech trading partners throughout the game, had to worry more about being invaded, and had worse traits than Mehmed for a space race win. This is very doable.
----------------
I agree with what Melior has suggested too - Bureacracy in the capital will be really helpful, and since Mehmed is Organized the high upkeep shouldn't hurt too much.
It's on the road to Liberalism, which still seems to be one of the major goals people are pushing for.

How long would it take you to research CS and what other immediate tech needs do you have?

You have a lot of young cities and a few more planned on the way - somewhere is going to have to step up and carry the research burden. I don't know how feasible it is to research Monarchy along the path to Liberalism, but if you don't you can stagnate your growth with workers, which you will need plenty of. Getting +50% production in the capital and +25%(on hammers) for Expansive means you should be able to crank them out fairly quickly.

When I think about it Mehmed has great traits and a terrific UB for this kind of situation. If the Janissaries don't feature prominently, oh well - they're another tool in an already strong toolbox.

 

[Whitefire]

The libraries, though, could not wait.

When I REX, I generally get all of my settlers done before worrying about infrastructure. It's a more efficient use of whips and it's more efficient for the economy. Since most of the cities will be settled at the same time, when you're ready to switch out of Slavery after whipping a worker/courthouse in your last city without them, the rest should have a Library/Market and some with a Hammam. This makes a huge impact on economy, yes, but it drastically reduces the number of turns to recover.

 

[aelf]

Thus betraying my limited experience with the SE.

Same here, as my current game shows. I only know it in theory

Ok, I guess I just did it recently in an offline game.

When I REX, I generally get all of my settlers done before worrying about infrastructure. It's a more efficient use of whips and it's more efficient for the economy. Since most of the cities will be settled at the same time, when you're ready to switch out of Slavery after whipping a worker/courthouse in your last city without them, the rest should have a Library/Market and some with a Hammam. This makes a huge impact on economy, yes, but it drastically reduces the number of turns to recover.

Why not run scientists and REX at the same time? Remember, the true spirit of an SE is getting benefits now rather than later, which important in winning the Liberalism race. You can't take your time to get to it.

 

[Scaphism]

Here's my dotmap, reasoning below.



Red dot should be the next city you settle. It is close, which means few maintenance fees, has cows in the first ring to work right away.

Orange Dot is the best I could do for the fishing village in the NW. Too bad you can't settle 1S where that peak is.
White X grabs the Iron and the Cow, and has the fresh water from the lake + a river to the east, so it can farm a few of those grassland tiles. On second thought, the fishing village will get the Iron in it's 3rd ring so White X should be 1E of where I put it so it can work more of those river tiles and drop a few deserts and peaks.
If you don't like White X, Black X overlaps a lot with the capital, but grabs cow and can poach rice from the capital when needed. It could potentially work cottages for the capital to take over later.

Yellow ? - I can't tell if it's on a hill or a peak. If it's a peak the city could be moved 1E , which would pick up 1 useless coast tile but that wouldn't be a big deal. It would lose 1 or 2 river tiles in its SW corner though.

Blue Dot looks like an obvious spot, you already have a warrior parked there like he's waiting for the party to come to him.
Pink is just a good commerce spot, plenty of grassland under the jungle with a few hills and a few river tiles. It fits nicely with the other spots as well.
You'll need a lot of workers for when you want to tackle pink and blue.

The NE island is kinda crappy and low on the priority list. The Yellow X's are the best I could do, they grab the most workable tiles they can. The grey > won't be workable, but at least you can chop the forest there.

I don't know what to do about that iron NE of the capital. There's not a lot of food and quite a few hills and plains. 1S of the Iron wouldn't be terrible, you'll want to fill it eventually or it will be a beachead when the other civs come knocking.

Hope you find it useful.

 

[Fetch]

Instead of light yellow, I'd build a city 1 NE/ 1 NW of the Iron/cows. You'd have a nice coastal city with decent production to build the ships you'll need very badly. Plant a 2nd city east-ish of the peak to grab the wheat. You could then maybe squeeze a small city north of pink and west of your capital. Cottage its few tiles all to pieces and it will be close to the happiness cap.

Disclaimer: All this is back-of-the-envelope figuring.

 

[Sisiutil]

Much thanks to Scaphism and Fetch for the city site suggestions! I count 11 cities on the big island and 2 on the smaller one. 13 has always been a lucky number for me (go figure!), and that's a pretty good-sized empire.

I'll get to it in the next round, following Whitefire's suggestion to REX and then recover, while researching towards Civil Service and churning out Settlers and workers. The barb city can wait for awhile.

 

[Whitefire]

Why not run scientists and REX at the same time? Remember, the true spirit of an SE is getting benefits now rather than later, which important in winning the Liberalism race. You can't take your time to get to it.

Yes it's valid, but as Sis found out, isolated tsarts mean fog busting is a priority. The fewer Barbs wasting your worker turns by pillaging or delaying you by forcing unit construction (that may likely be disbanded later) the better. So it's a question of direct benefits from running scientists or indirect benefits from fewer Barb hassles.

 

[Scaphism]

I thought a fair bit about a Cow/Iron city but it's really food poor and far from any fresh water making it difficult to irrigate. I don't think we need another coastal city either there are already plenty and there's no plan in place to take advantage of being in the coast. Maybe if the GLighthouse or Colossus came factored it it might have some merit, but I have a feeling those hammers will be spent on infrastructure instead.

Re: Tech path. I know it was said earlier but you are really low on happiness resources, but the good news is that can kind of help you streamline your research.
Calendar is not any kind of priority, nor is construction since you don't have to go to war. Normally those would be eating up beakers at this point in the game, but they don't have to for you.
Sailing is probably a good pickup for the cheap harbors and lighthouses, and after that you can be off to the liberalism races.
If you had Silver or Gems I would say Metal Casting and Forges would be warranted, but with only 1 additional happiness coming from them I'm just not sure it should be a priority. Hopefully the RNG gods are kind and gems or silver appear in one of your mines - you could use a small blessing like that with the dearth of happiness on your island.

From the map above it looks like you can fit 11 cities onto your island with 2 more on the nub the the NE. Is 11 enough to do what you need? Would the Statue of Liberty be a good goal as well?

*Edit* I meant to address the cities to the NW - I think those should wait as well. The barbs require a large force to take down, a force that is currently fogbusting to keep other barbs away. It will take a fair number or resources to settle the area up there anyways - a few workers and settlers and military to clear/garrison the area, and its far away from the area you've just expanded into. Sisiutil already said it, but I agree with waiting to move up there until you start having some extra time and hammers to devote to getting tha area up and running.

Maybe that could be the Janissary campaign?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Much thanks to Scaphism and Fetch for the city site suggestions! I count 11 cities on the big island and 2 on the smaller one. 13 has always been a lucky number for me (go figure!), and that's a pretty good-sized empire.

I'll get to it in the next round, following Whitefire's suggestion to REX and then recover, while researching towards Civil Service and churning out Settlers and workers. The barb city can wait for awhile.

We have a game plan!!! Woot.

I have a propensity for not sticking out the tougher games, so I patiently await the next installment.

/SitOnEdgeOfSeat

 

[Tyrant Roger]

This is a tough and lonely platform from which to launch, but I think it is clearly your best victory strategy.

I suggest you add scientists in your capital and cottage spam there. Elsewhere build settlers and workers to REX fast. Chop everywhere as needed to get courthouses and more settlers and workers.

Liberalism will be very difficulty given this start, but you might as well try since you need all the same techs for space. Ignore military techs, ignore monarch, ignore astronomy. The AI's will come calling soon enough.

Internet is the wonder that you must get to close the remaining tech gap as we enter the space age.

With this large an island and # of cities, you have a chance for a space victory.

Last night I won a monarch game with a large island start, but I was lucky enough to find the AI's by trireme and so tech and resource trading was easy. I REX'ed my island, kept a small military, built a few wonders, and launched in 1838. The only speedbump was the absence of aluminum of my island. I had to fight one short war to capture it from an AI on a small nearby island.

You have a large enough island, but no contact with the AI's and few happiness resources. Just pray you have aluminum.

The AI's are not usually adept at coordinating space ship part construction - lets hope that proves true here. Diplomacy can also help if they can't resist the need to attack each other.