ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

[Gooblah]

I agree w/ light Spectra. However, leave Rome with one crappy city and convert Justinian to Judaism so he'll tech trade w/ you.
Also, build Courthouses in all cities and a Market in your holy city to get even more gold. All those wonders will do wonders. Also, did Augustus declare on Justinian at all? It seems likely due to the huge power drop Augustus experienced, but Augustus and Justinian are Friendly...
Also build Spies so a repeat of the wartime espionage doesn't occur.

300TH POST

 

[nwadams]

your doing well, i think if you attack augustus soon, rome will fall, i played a few turns but i'm only a prince player so i don't really know what i'm doing

good job sisiutil, I thought we were kinda screwed a few rounds back when the power graph was not looking so great

 

[slobberinbear]

Sisiutil: how was the survival rate of your CR III Trebuchets? Just curious. Did they do significant collateral damage? 20% per hit or thereabouts?

I would get Guilds, as you mentioned, before attacking Augie. Knights, Trebs, and Crossbows should do just fine against Rome. Arguably, with Trebs that good, you won't need many maces -- you could let your Knights be the primary city assault units and get them lots of xp for future upgrading to Conquistadors.

While you're getting Guilds, it makes sense to lay down the courthouses everywhere and a market in Barcelona (for sure) and possibly Lisbon and Madrid.

It's hard to see the benefit for Augie in setting up Byzantium as a colony. Yes, he lowered his maintenance costs, but what did he gain? Justinian isn't his vassal, is he?

 

[Porphyrius]

By the looks of things they're generating exactly the same as us - just the 4 EP from the palace - with each aiming all of their points towards us. Because we haven't increased our rate, and neither of them has directed any points towards the other, they haven't had cause to produce any more.

That seems close to my experiences from espionage as well.
Which is why my typical strategy involves me focusing all EP towards one AI till i get enough to see his research or fund any active "dirty work" i have in mind and only then move to a single next one.
Usually this forces my target to redirect some research to spying, plus i actually get a usable result/effect much faster.

Now, I screwed up in one area big-time. In my impatience to get my units built and the war underway, then in my desperation to shore up my economy, I neglected espionage, despite several of you posted with advice regarding spies. I paid a price for my cavalier attitude to this new element of the game:

The best science city (usually the capital) and the best military unit producing city are the typical targets of / attacks. A spy defending there will function much better than counterespinage.
You were hardly hit hard though, i mean up to +4 : mad: citizens for 6 turns. Well my having to handle unpatched marathon magnitude may cloud my judgement on the matter a bit.

Meanwhile, my stack closed in on Lisbon. Opposition there was formidable:

It also took forever and a day to whittle away the defense bonus. I don't know how the numbers work (one of my weak points, I know), but several of Joao's cities suddenly had a 100% bonus, which I believe means he built both walls and castles in each one. Even with five Accuracy-promoted Catapults, it took several turns to remove the cultural defenses.

I would hardly call a city defending consisting of mostly cats formidable. In fact i'd recon such forces composition (7/12 units cats) is on the excessive side even as city attackers.
Joao choises were for a good while between archers, chariots and cats but still ...
However, the era that castles just appear is arguably the worst to witle down % defences. Even with accuracy trebs one needs 16-17 bombardments likely delaying the siege to 3 turns or even 4.

I'm a fan of the OR + Vassalage combo. Vassalage gets your units to 5 xp with a barracks, and OR is a solid builder civic and is missionary-friendly. Another balanced combo is Bureaucracy + Theocracy, which gives you the same starting xp as OR + Vassalage and lets you crank out boucoups promoted units in the capital.

Yup, its harddly odd to use only one of Theocracy/Vassalage as the extra +2 exp from both goes a bit wasted. The builders bonus from OR/BC makes much more sense.
Similarily Sisiutils switch and 12 exp trebs feel an overkill to me. I meando we really expect them to ever reach level 5 at +1 exp per battle anytime soon?

 

[KMadCandy]

permanoob thoughts re UB and courthouses: all castles give +25% espionage. that does calculate fractions, so in Cordoba where you already have a courthouse and a citadel you're earning 2.5 spy points not just 2. given our slider situation, every little bit counts so that's spiffy. just one more reason on the already-decided-so-we-don't-need-more-reasons list of why to build courthouses. i don't know whether it's worth anything to end a turn having earned only x.5 esp points total vs x pts, but if we have 2 CH+citadel cities that's 5 points vs. 4 so you know what i mean. i don't do math during games either (well, except during culture games, and there "doing math" = entering figures into a spreadsheet somebody else made).

your situation fills me with terror. the two people you know can't declare war on each other, so you can't do WHEOOHRN checks. you can handle it, but this permachicken needs all the advance warning she can get *giggle*.

"My next Great General got settled in Seville, which will be the Herioc Epic city. I like combining HE with the Moai Statues." that sounds good to me, especially considering Seville's location. it's right at the Roman front line where you'll need troops when the day comes. added bonus, Gus is imperialistic and triplewordscore, he owns the great wall ... the guy will be collecting GGs like pokemon for a while there until we capture it. here's hoping he uses them on MIs/MAs that we can capture.

i'm assuming GWall is in rome but we can't really tell from F9 since rome's not on the top5 city list and he clearly had 3 cities when it was finished. GWall and Sankore will be quite nice additions to the list of wonders you sub-contracted out *giggle*.

gooblah: gus's drop in power was big and instant due to splitting off and making a vassal. his land power and population went from 100% to 50% overnight for that part of his empire.

slobberingbear: see above . colonies are automatically vassals afaik.

from the post below mine:

Sisiutil, I wouldn't worry about the Statue of Zeus. Sure, it's probably a capital and heavily defended, but it's a coastal city. That means easy razing if needed. I usually hate to raze a capital since it's bound to have all sorts of goodies in it beside the World Wonders, but in this case you might not have a choice. That's in the distant future though.

oooooooh, excellent intel gathering from F9! i hadn't thought of that at all.

 

[carl corey]

He's gonna finish optics soon, so tech trading won't be a problem. Just get a couple of caravels to meet the rest of the bunch.

I'd also head for Rome. The good part is that we'll have only a narrow path in the beginning, and we have superior forces. Even when we go for Rome-the city we can easily protect the land passage back to our territory. Also, Optics means we can build Caravels (and add a few Triremes) to deal with any naval invasion. The main stack should probably go directly Neapolis-Rome but then we'll need several stacks to take the other cities. The alternative could be Neapolis - Cumae - Rome - Antium - Ravenna - Arretium all in one move, leaving only defenders behind.

Sisiutil, I wouldn't worry about the Statue of Zeus. Sure, it's probably a capital and heavily defended, but it's a coastal city. That means easy razing if needed. I usually hate to raze a capital since it's bound to have all sorts of goodies in it beside the World Wonders, but in this case you might not have a choice. That's in the distant future though.

In the immediate future I see: Courthouses everywhere, Trebs/Longbows/Maces, Optics -> Caravels & Triremes, Guilds -> Knights. I know this and the war will likely put you out of the Liberalism race, so maybe the alternative (Edu -> Liberalism -> Astronomy) is better.

 

[KMadCandy]

I know this and the war will likely put you out of the Liberalism race, so maybe the alternative (Edu -> Liberalism -> Astronomy) is better.

do you really mean Lib between Edu and Astro there? why rush for lib if we're conceding the race? if it's to swap to FR for better relations at first contact, is that worth it given our AP goodies and maybe owning USank? we can get the diplo benefits without the research 10% boost and without the research sidetrack by just changing to NSR, and we're spiritual so we can flip-flop. liberalism isn't a pre-req for anything except communism. first one to communism gets a free great spy but i don't see that as a priority atm. so why the rush, educate me please?

i love spiritual and like finessing politics, so i don't picture myself going FR and staying there this early in this game, given my style which is decidedly not everybody's. so this may just be a matter of me seeing it through my filter and that FR would generally be the better choice for folks that don't want to micro the politics.

 

[NaZdReG]

sisuitil,

you're welcome for the tip about the city ruins another little one for you related to it.. that can reoccur at will basically. i'd make it the last tile you improve for that city as the beaker count increases with each era.

I actually had an event towards railroad iirc that was like 1200 beakers with 50% chance for another 1200 beakers

there are a couple of other events that can happen because of a ruins tile as well.

damn nice work taking out jaoo. isnt he a pain in the a$$ to deal with?? I hate that guy

lesson learned about the spys I hope.. I do remember telling you to garrison atleast 1 spy per city that you find important. it drastically reduces the likelyhood of successful missions and increases the chances of the spy getting caught just moving through your territory.

NaZ

 

[Sisiutil]

Also, build Courthouses in all cities and a Market in your holy city to get even more gold. All those wonders will do wonders. Also, did Augustus declare on Justinian at all? It seems likely due to the huge power drop Augustus experienced, but Augustus and Justinian are Friendly...
Also build Spies so a repeat of the wartime espionage doesn't occur.

300TH POST

Congrats on post #300.

Barcelona and Madrid both have Markets already, so I'll have to look for economic boosts elsewhere. This is why I thought spreading Judaism to Byzantium before a DoW might be a good idea. There are 6 cities to which Judaism could be spread; if I count Cumae, as well, 7. That could make a big difference at this point. Don't forget that Justinian will be freed from vassal status (which is why Augustus didn't DoW on him, BTW--he can't) at some point in the war. If Justinian becomes Jewish, it's more likely I could make peace with him and keep him out of it while I finish Augustus.

 

[carl corey]

do you really mean Lib between Edu and Astro there? why rush for lib if we're conceding the race?

I mean switching to Edu - Lib instead of going to war is also an option. Not Edu -Lib - Astro after Optics - Guilds and while in war, that will never work of course.

 

[nwadams]

ok, one quesiton what does DoW stand for?

lol

thanks

 

[Hackapell]

(above) Declaration of War.
Otherwise, looks good! maybe my fears of closing two bottles and pointing them at your face seems to have worked out. I'm not sure whether or not you'll have the strenght to take out both Justinian and augustus. BEtter to take out the leader rather than the vassal.

 

[Ultimate_Waffle]

Declaration of War.

 

[KMadCandy]

I mean switching to Edu - Lib instead of going to war is also an option. Not Edu -Lib - Astro after Optics - Guilds and while in war, that will never work of course.

ah! that makes sense, and would have when i first read it if i wasn't a permanoob. i was picturing going to war, and the research order edu - lib - astro after the war techs were done, and just could not figure out why that one was in there *giggle*.

 

[nwadams]

(above) Declaration of War.
Otherwise, looks good! maybe my fears of closing two bottles and pointing them at your face seems to have worked out. I'm not sure whether or not you'll have the strenght to take out both Justinian and augustus. BEtter to take out the leader rather than the vassal.

thanks, and i wouldn't worry too much about justinian, he has to send boats to attack you, and his galley's can only carry two ppl, so he would be delayed quite a bit trying to build an army and mobilizing it to your continent. By the time he could attack us i believe we would have him liberated from rome.

 

[carl corey]

Sisiutil, did you get the additional ~400 beakers toward Divine Right? If yes, it would make DR quite easy to research, wouldn't it? Only a matter of turns. So maybe Optics - DR - Guilds. You'll do well enough with Maces/Trebs/Longbows in the upcoming war, so Knights aren't such a high priority in my opinion. You're also looking to keep all Roman cities, which means little to no pillaging.

 

[r_rolo1]

Don't forget that Justinian will be freed from vassal status (which is why Augustus didn't DoW on him, BTW--he can't) at some point in the war.

I would not count too much on this.... Colonies can be very loyal to their masters ( I had a game where, when I was finish João, his colony led by Lincoln was with him until the end, even when he had enough to break free and negotiate a seperate peace...). I would make my plans considering the possibility of needing to finish AC to be able to make peace with Justinian

 

[Bhruic]

As some of you predicted, an AP vote to stop the war came up. I voted to defy the resolution and braced myself for the unhappiness that would cause. But it turns out Augustus, in veritable Machiavellian fashion, was on my side, in a way:

Actually, if you look at the numbers, it didn't matter. The vote needed 162/262 votes to pass. You had 124 of those votes. The other two combined only had 138 votes (96 + 42). Therefore, even if Augustus had have voted to end the war, your no vote (well, defy vote) was enough by itself to keep the war going.

Bh

 

[LAnkou]

isn't justinian who get the Statue of Zeus?

if it's justinian, prepare to face some UFO!!! (Unhappy Face Obliteration)

I think from your previous ALC that you prefer when all the cities build everything in the same time, but i would call for courthouses for former portuguese cities (they are the one that cost you more and when growing, it will be worse) and units in your original ones...

Since you're looking for showing the new UB and UU (and that's done for the UB), just get the quickest path to the UU...

 

[KMadCandy]

isn't justinian who get the Statue of Zeus?

SoZ is in a city founded in 4000 BC. justinian can't have any cities that old.