ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

[Scarredroman]

Checking the power charts will tell you what they're doing about building military powers.

Assuming Augustus has not got any other GP points playing, it'll take 75 turns for the Great Spy will be born.

Get the iron hooked up and churn those axes and spears out. You've been tnrough this in Peter II and Izzy I. You're almost sure to have I or 2 barbarian states turn up in the north. It's not just Aug and J who might have a settler or two up there - not that I think they have, yet.

I think you need to grab meditation before the GP is born so that you can bulb Theology.

 

[pigswill]

Even with a market place you don't need to swop cottages to farms for merchant specialists until your research rate is up to 80 or 90%.
Having picked up MC from Oracle it makes sense to pick up gems to add to the forge based happy boost (and the extra commerce will help pay for the city).

 

[slobberinbear]

Get the iron hooked up and churn those axes and spears out.

We want swords and spears here. Swords are better city attackers and aren't vulnerable to Joao's chariots. As it looks like Joao has no metal, no need for axes against him.

I think you need to grab meditation before the GP is born so that you can bulb Theology.

Agreed. Theocracy will give Old Testament Izzy an extra promotion, which will be very handy against Augie when it's his turn.

Hmmm ... maybe Sis should name one of his towns in the east Masada ...

 

[Scarredroman]

We want swords and spears here. Swords are better city attackers and aren't vulnerable to Joao's chariots. As it looks like Joao has no metal, no need for axes against him.



Agreed. Theocracy will give Old Testament Izzy an extra promotion, which will be very handy against Augie when it's his turn.

Hmmm ... maybe Sis should name one of his towns in the east Masada ...

Swords are no match for Praetorians and we do want to use the stack against Augustus after Joao, don't we?

 

[slobberinbear]

Barcelona. Interesting situation here, Sisiutil.

Barcelona turned out to be a very nice city. Marble, floodplains, iron, clams ... I hear it's nice this time of year, too.

Long-term, it looks like a commerce city, but don't get seduced by the floodplains in the short-term. Barcelona needs to give us hammers right now for the Army of the Inquisition (tm). Even without major wood to chop (like Madrid), it can crank out a few units for the war effort and hold off Joao's chariots from pillaging.

Medium-term, it looks like a great site for Colossus ... enough hammers to make a forge, and Sis has copper hooked up and burned the Oracle tech on Metal Casting. Now if only we could get a religion to get founded there ...

 

[slobberinbear]

Swords are no match for Praetorians and we do want to use the stack against Augustus after Joao, don't we?

That's a fair point, but we want a swift victory in the short run. Some quick numbers (as I understand the combat mechanics -- I suck at Civ math) ...

Spoiler :

CR I Swordsman = Strength 6, -30% adjustment to defender's strength in city
CR I Axeman = Strength 5, -20% adjustment to defender's strength in city

CG I Archer fortified in city with 40% cultural defense: Strength 3, +135% strength adjustment

CR I Sword vs. CG I Archer: 6:6.15 ratio, not accounting for first strike
CR I Axe vs. CG I Archer: 5: 6.25 ratio, not accounting for first strike

It looks to me like better odds for the swordsman, who has a decent chance of winning the battle or at least seriously wounding the archer.

Besides, Sisiutil acquired Metal Casting and has the ability to go for Machinery for Crossbows, which will tear up Augie's Praetorians.

You do raise a good point, though, about planning ahead for the units you'll need in the next war.

 

[popejubal]

Some random thoughts:

Caesar is going to get a Great Spy. That Great Spy will probably be used against either you or Joao.

It might be worth cozying up to Caesar and playing nice with him until somewhat after he would have used his Great Spy(s) so that he is more likely to use them against Joao and not against you. If you're lucky, you might even get Caesar to help against Joao. If Caesar is your religion and if you play nice with him, there's no reason why you can't put his Praetorians to use for you.

You'll have to get him happy enough to make up for sharing borders, but that's not an insurmountable problem. Judiasm is the easiest religion to spread (Monotheism), so go get to work.

Once you have Machinery and/or Longbows, the Praetorians look a whole lot less scary and you can beat on Rome if you choose. Since you can conquor the Romans either before Optics or around the same time as Optics, you could just let them build the Colossus and take it from them when you're ready.

One last thought: Put 100% of your spy points on Joao. You're not going to get enough spy points to actually do anything to Caesar, so why not put your points all on the one person you can effect? If you've already done this and I missed it, then my bad. The points will automatically redirect to Caesar once you kill Joao off.

As far as killing off all of your potential trade routes on your continent goes, Astronomy will be a great boon to restoring trade route profitability. Even if you leave Caesar and Joao with a city or two each, you only get one trade route per AI city for your entire civ. That means leaving Caesar and Joao as tiny vassals isn't all that attractive. That also makes Mercantilism a lot more attractive until you hit Astronomy.

...and if you're going to go for Astronomy earlier than usual, the Colossus isn't as attractive as it otherwise would be. I'd suggest trading Metal Casting to Caesar if he comes up with something worthwhile to offer for it. Go ahead and let Caesar build the Colossus and then you have one more wonder for the Great People points even after Astronomy takes away the free commerce.

 

[popejubal]

Having picked up MC from Oracle it makes sense to pick up gems to add to the forge based happy boost (and the extra commerce will help pay for the city).

And whipping a Forge will end up giving you instead of because of the resources. It's just plain zany.

 

[kniteowl]

Can anyone calculate how long before Augustus gets his Great Spy? And will the AI use the GSpy for infiltration? From what I've seen, the BtS AI prefers to use the GW GSpy for other uses, including----a golden age. Should I wait and see what Augustus does before investing a bunch of hammers in Spies I may never use?

Check the EP screen if the cost of a Mission against AC becomes something like 150% or 200% some crazy huge number, then you know what that means.

 

[Winston Hughes]

On the other hand, I should take down Joao NOW when he's weak, before he gets Longbowmen. No, Longbowmen aren't invincible, but they are a pain and it's always nice to avoid them.

I wouldn't worry about Joao getting Longbows any time soon - looking at the tech screen, he's much further from Feudalism than we are from Construction.

More worrying is our power graph relative to both of our neighbours. We are a prime target. And, though it seems they would be less useful against Joao, I would prioritise a few axes in case Caesar decides to try his luck. We can leave some behind, ideally with a couple of cats for company, when we launch our southern offensive.

There are concerns about the economy as well, especially what a lot of expansion will do to it.

I wouldn't be too worried here either, unless we plan on settling multiple northern cities and absorbing Joao's whole empire before we get Currency & CoL. If we settle only the blue site, and keep only two of Joao's cities, then we should be able to keep the economy afloat while researching the crucial techs. The gold and gems, Barcelona's cottages, and the spoils of war, ought to see us through.

And then there's the quest to worry about.

I think you'll just have to ignore that for the time being. Horseback Riding is a diversion too far at this point, and we won't be wanting to build stables until the more vital economic builds are in place. If and when we do go for it, the food bonus would be far superior to the HAs (unless we find ourselves in trouble at the very moment the quest is completed, of course).

Blue city, then, would buy me some time to build the other cities at my leisure. Which means I could then have time to devote towards units that could take down Joao.

I may be misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're not giving enough priority to military builds now. A DoW from Caesar could end this game very quickly. We need axes.

I'll send a Chariot into his territory quickly to verify he has no metal, then close borders again.

Definitely the right move. It would also be very useful to know his present troops numbers/types, and whether his capital is on a hill. The first objective of our campaign should be to take Lisbon and Coimbra (simultaneously if possible), so anything that helps us to estimate the number of troops needed to bring down the capital will be a real bonus.

I see no need to rush to war in this case. We should make sure we have the forces needed to swiftly eliminate Joao (or at least to cripple him), so as to minimise the chance of war on two fronts.

Oh, and bear in mind that razed cities can spawn partisans, but these disappear if the civ in question is eliminated (iirc - is that right?). A good reason to take the cities you want to keep before razing the ones you don't want.

 

[Andvare]

Round 2: 2825 BC to 825 BC

I've gotten this quest before. As I recall, you get a choice between getting a certain number of free Horse Archers (7 on a standard size map like this, I think), a free promotion for all Horse Archers, and +1 food from all stables. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Isn't it +1 food for *one* stable?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Is that what people mean by a "stable" diet? (I'll get my coat). Still hoping for Liz and Bismarck to turn up in this game for appropriate Sooty magic words though.

 

[Percy]

Isn't it +1 food for *one* stable?

I'd say it's as Sisiutil thinks. Pretty sure i remember that from my own experience. I could be mistaken, though.

 

[ori]

Isn't it +1 food for *one* stable?

I'd say it's as Sisiutil thinks. Pretty sure i remember that from my own experience. I could be mistaken, though.

Sisiutil is right +1 from all stables - which is pretty powerful long term the others (a number of horse archers (6 on standard size map) or Sentry for all mounted are pretty powerful short and mid term)

 

[Percy]

ori, thanks a lot for compiling the list of random events. It's a gem =)

 

[MrFelony]

well think about what the 6 HA would do for a war against one of the civs? not saying it's the right choice, it depends on where sis is at when/if he completes it. and does the +1 food remain after stables become obsolete far down the line?

 

[zienth]

I completely agree on getting a chariot in to scout Joao and then immediately closing borders with him. He'll be sending settlers through you pretty soon. On the other hand, no point in closing borders with Rome until you actually have him blocked. Closing borders won't do any good if he can just waltz a settler around your borders. Better to keep the open borders diplo bonus as long as possible. But as soon as Seville pops its borders and blocks the isthmus, close the door to Rome. Then bar the door and start piling the furniture behind it.

Zienth

 

[cabert]

I'm a bit worried (but then again, I'm easily worried).
I don't think you should settle or conquer all those cities this fast.

I agree with pigswill about the gem city, but I would not settle anything beyond that before currency is in.
Portugal isn't a threat now, and never will be if you build a few spears + he is jew already, while Rome isn't.
If this was my game, I would prepare for a roman war next :
- axes (loads of, praetorian counter)
- chariots (for pillaging the iron, 2 or 3 should be plenty)
- swords for the cities.

I don't think you can afford to wait for catapults, JC will declare before that IMHO.

 

[ori]

well think about what the 6 HA would do for a war against one of the civs?

IMHO this is the weakest choice of the three, though of course great if in an ill-prepared war

not saying it's the right choice, it depends on where sis is at when/if he completes it. and does the +1 food remain after stables become obsolete far down the line?

It does go obsolete with Advanced Flight, though I doubt this game will go there and Advanced Flight is a non-essential tech for the Space Race, so one can skip it all together if the is too valuable.

 

[MrFelony]

that's basically what i meant. everyone just skips over that choice, but if the situation is right, i imagine 6 HA's being very useful. and in the case of them leaving at advanced flight then never mind about that, was mainly curious

and this is just for the people who were wondering/suggesting for a machinery slingshot. i could have gotten it a lot sooner if my game wasn't so sloppy.

Spoiler :