ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

Recently, Unconquered Sun's 'Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities' thread inspired me to aggressively settle city to block chunks of land for later settlement. Hence the canal city really is important for strategic reasons.

Why the obsession with the canal city? I agree that's it's good to block off the AI early on, but here it's just suicide. You open up two fronts, becuase either civ could attack you at any time, and the city won't be beneficial until much much later in the game. In Unconquered Sun's game, he was on one end of a continent and blocked off land in only one direction becuase his rear was covered by the sea. Much better to take out Joao, REX, and then focus on Augustus. Also, the fact that you're semi- isolated means nothing now that espionage plays a more active role. Since you can devote all your :espionage: to Augustus once Joao is dead, youi can steal techs from him at your leisure, which would be instructive to watch, as you have not prioritized espionage in any of your BtS games yet.
 
The Great Wall is a decent wonder, but with no major barb issues, its only value is GPPs for a Great Spy and culture. That's what, 4 wood chops (?) that would otherwise build a lot of hammers' worth of settlers and military units. Plus there's always the risk you get beaten to it. I don't see the risk/reward for it here, when Joao clearly is going to expand right up to Madrid if we let him. If we were more isolated or had stone it would make more sense to me.

To me this is a straightforward rush on Joao followed by REXing and spying/medieval war against Augie.
 
I think the strongest move is an immediate Chariot rush to cheaply secure a big pile of land and plenty of production for Augustus.

After the Wheel, either try to get Judaism in Madrid or Lisboa, or do Pottery/Writing/IW first and wait for Christianity. Both equally good.

Indeed. 2nd city, chariots and get rid of Portugal. He is one mad Rexer, you don´t want to kep him around..
 
Whatever you do, don't do a Chariot rush compromised by building another city first.
 
1, no GW please, maybe we should demostrate this tactic in next ALC but not this one.

2, lisbon is NOT on a hill, and no religion holy city, that makes chariot rush so tempting , don't miss it.

3, if guys are afraid of the expansive canal city, we could hold our third settler there and settle that city if we see AC's settler, just don't givethe strategic spot to AC so easily. also we could have settler held in the blue city and time for the IW to come.
 
Round 2: 2825 BC to 825 BC

As I started the round I realized I had a lot of different strategic options open to me but I had to decide on which ones to follow and quickly.

First off, I decided to forgo the Chariot rush against Joao, which I'm sure will disappoint many of you. My thinking was that there were only two sources of copper available, both very close to Augustus, and no guarantee of iron. If I spent all my time focused on Chariot-rushing Portugal I could well find myself facing Rome with no metals. Scary.

Second, I also decided to forgo the Great Wall, which I'm sure will also disappoint many of you. In this regard my thinking was similar to what many of you have pointed out: limited barb activity in this game due to the map. Furthermore, as you'll see, the strategy I followed meant I quickly became the tech leader, making the benefits of a Great Spy not dubious, perhaps, but diminished. Neither Augustus nor Joao, in my experience, are tech monsters. Now, if I had been next door to Mansa Musa, well, I would have made a very different decision.

So what did I do?

To start off, I changed the build in Madrid from the Great Wall to a Barracks.

ALC18b_825BC_01.jpg


I wasn't going to let the Barracks finish right away, however. It's a good building in which I could deposit hammers while the city grew. Meanwhile my lone Worker first brought the gold online, which greatly accelerated research, and then the horses while waiting for my research of the Wheel to finish.

And of course, my Warriors kept exploring:

ALC18b_825BC_02.jpg


So no seafood near the eastern copper. That meant that a city founded on top of the sugar would be the best option, I decided.

My southern Warrior discovered that the spur of land at the southeast tip of the continent was barely a spur at all, so he doubled back to finish exploring the environs around Lisbon. While there, he had the opportunity to nab a Worker:

ALC18b_825BC_03.jpg


However, this is one of the few times I passed on such an opportunity. Why? My opponent if I did declare war: Joao. Someone posted above (sorry, couldn't find it when I reviewed just now) that Joao is a difficult to make peace with, and that reminded me that this has, indeed, been my experiences with him the few times I've encountered him in off-line BtS games. He won't settle for peace, he wants a city, or gold, or a tech--a pound of flesh, in other words. Keep in mind I don't know if he has a strategic resource and all I have for defense (and will have for some time) are Warriors and Chariots. Not good for a protracted war, which is what this would turn into. So I passed on the Worker this time.

The Warrior then headed northeast to become the first protector of my second city. I interrupted the build of the Barracks in Madrid to rush out a Settler in order to claim that southeastern marble/clams location. This would, in turn, support a run on the Oracle.

ALC18b_825BC_04.jpg


I know cabledawg suggested founding the city 2W of this location, but I didn't like the idea for several reasons. First of all, it meant the clams would be kind of wasted. A mediocre fishing village 1S of the flood plains would be required to work them (and that single flood plains tile, along with a whole lot of desert, peaks, and water). It also would waste a flood plain tile by settling on it, which I don't like to do. And finally, I was aiming for Metal Casting from the Oracle since it's on the path to Spain's unique building. That meant I had a crack at the Colossus, especially if I manage to nab one of the copper sites, so having coastal cities claiming all available seafood tiles was attractive.

As you can see I had already researched Polytheism and was on my way to Monotheism. I started building a Work Boat in this city and passed on a Monument as unnecessary, because...

ALC18b_825BC_05.jpg


...it became the Jewish holy city, which meant its borders popped very quickly, and also meant that the marble tile became available for quarrying much faster than if I'd bothered with a monument. Thus, founding Judaism allowed me to get a lock on the Oracle. The Oracle, in turn, would help generate a Great Prophet to build the Jewish shrine.

Thanks to Madrid's size (Judaism spread there, raising its happiness cap), working several good production tiles, having marble, and chopping one forest, I had the Oracle done in less than 10 turns.

ALC18b_825BC_06.jpg


I know a lot of you talked about some ambitious slingshots like Machinery, but come on, this is Emperor level and I wasn't taking any chances. While I was tempted by Theology, I already have a religion and I did that in the last game. Ditto for Code of Laws. Besides, I want Judaism to spread to both my nieghbours to keep them happy with me while I beat on the other.

ALC18b_825BC_07.jpg


Remember, the main point of this second game with Isabella is to highlight her UU and UB. Getting Metal Casting from the Oracle puts us that much closer to Engineering and Citadels.

Turns out that I wasn't the only one pursuing wonders:

ALC18b_825BC_08.jpg


Heh. Isn't that hilarious? Only 3 wonders built thus far and they're all on my continent. This also makes taking out both Joao and Augustus much more attractive. Now if I'd chariot-rushed Joao, he'd never have gotten an opportunity to finish Stonehenge, would he? And if I take Rome I could get those Great Spy points you were all talking about.

The Great Wall reminds me of barbs. Several did show up, scampering down towards Madrid from the north. My Chariots have handled them ably so far. I have one Chariot at 6 XPs with Combat 1 and Medic 1, awaiting my first Great General to become my M*A*S*H unit; another just earned Flanking II. At this rate I should have a handful of units worthy of upgrades to Conquistadors later in the game.

Speaking of the Portuguese leader, he came around after I finished Writing as expected:

ALC18b_825BC_09.jpg


I turned him down. The last thing I need is a Portugese Settler sneaking through my land while I'm preoccupied with other things and stealing city sites I've already mapped out for myself. I also refused OB with Augustus; I was planning on blocking him off too.

ALC18b_825BC_10.jpg


As you can see, however, this city may have some problems with food. Looks like Augustus has founded a city 2E of the corn tile. I'll have to load it up with culture in order to feed it. But at least I will soon have a source of copper.

With Pottery and Writing finished, I then researched Alphabet:

ALC18b_825BC_11.jpg


Surprisingly, neither Joao nor Augustus were willing to trade anything to me. Both had Iron Working and Hunting on me. Hunting isn't really a big deal, but I really wanted to find out where the Iron is, and since both my neighbours have it, I'm loathe to waste flasks researching it myself. So I opened my borders to both of them, hoping to improve relations so they'd tech trade. I also hoped that this would help Judaism spread to Augustus, which it hasn't yet.

Despite that, the Roman did, eventually, loosen up:

ALC18b_825BC_12.jpg


As I've pointed out in other recent games, I'm much less reluctant to trade Alphabet than I used to be. I've noticed that the AI is reluctant to trade it, so if I trade it to one civ and it's the sole tech he has on my other neighbour(s)--as it was in this case--it was very unlikely that he'd get much benefit from it. Mind you, Augustus will get a Great Spy soon and now can build little spies, so I may live to eat those words.

I was reluctant to trade Metal Casting just yet, especially as I had a cheaper tech to offer for the ones Rome had on hand. As I mentioned, I think the Colossus is a distinct possibility, so why give Augustus--who's Industrious--the chance to beat me to it?

At any rate, the important thing is that I found out where the iron is. It did not show up in that empty tile north of Madrid. It did not show up in that big empty area in the NE land blob. No, it showed up south of Barcelona:

ALC18b_825BC_13.jpg


So it appears that as with the capital, my instinct on founding Barcelona where I did proved correct. Though I guess that, with the quick 3rd border pop, a 2W Barcelona would have claimed the iron tile anyway, but this way it's right in the fat cross where it belongs.

Here's a look at the entire map:

ALC18b_825BC_14.jpg


Yeah, so it's just the three of us, and not with a lot of land to spare. You can see why I wanted to prioritize blocking off Augustus--he'll run out of room in his own eastern land-blob before too long and then he'll want all those choice city sites to my northeast.

As several of you pointed out, I'm definitely running the risk of having both my neighbours gang up on me because I'm blocking their territorial ambitions. This was another reason why I pursued Judaism, especially since neither Joao nor Augustus founded the 2 ultra-early religions. I'm hoping that a shared faith will keep the peace with AC while I mop the floor with Joao.

Now the land mass continues to the NW and the NE, but is blocked by peaks. There may be nothing but tiny spurs of land connected to either one, or there could be massive land blobs there. I won't know until I get a ship out. I'm thinking I should focus on Triremes for further exploration, since I can build them and they're more likely to survive than Work Boats or Galleys.

One last thing: right on the last turn of the round, a quest appeared.

ALC18b_825BC_15.jpg


I've gotten this quest before. As I recall, you get a choice between getting a certain number of free Horse Archers (7 on a standard size map like this, I think), a free promotion for all Horse Archers, and +1 food from all stables. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, I was thinking of REXing in the next round, so 7 cities shouldn't be too difficult--in fact, that would precisely fill up the remaining space. And Isabella's UU is a mounted unit, so Stables would indeed be a good idea. However, I'd have to sidetrack research to Horseback Riding. I need it for the UU, but Military Tradition is a long way off and I hope to have my land mass completely Spanish by then, frankly. Thoughts?

Anyway, that was the round. The next priority is to get that iron hooked up so I can build better units than Chariots and ensure that neither Joao nor Augustus get any funny ideas for a while. Then I have two options: either REX to fill up the space in the NE, or if I can successfully seal off that area from Augustus, build up my military and take out Portugal with an Axe/Sword rush.

In terms of research, as you can see, I'm researching Mathematics next. I could then pursue Construction. Another thought is Aesthetics and Literature to go after the Great Library--still my favourite wonder. Come on, I have marble! Heck, I'll have stone soon too, if everything goes according to plan. Maybe we should give some thought to the University of Sankore and the Spiral Minaret. And dare we dream of building the Apostolic Palace yet again, thereby hyper-powering all our religious buildings (including the cheap temples) with +2 flasks, +2 gold, and +2 hammers? Wow.

Then again, I say we have a land mass to conquer, so you know where that means those hammers need to go. Long term, if the continent is pacified before the UB and UU are available, that means overseas invasions. Hence my thoughts on the Great Library, to lightbulb the Liberalism path towards Astronomy.

So... whaddya think?
 

Attachments

A second dotmap for discussion. Existing Spanish cities are in white.

SpainDotMap2.jpg


Blue and Pink remain unchanged from my first dotmap.

Red has moved to a better location based on several suggestions (thanks, everyone).

The only one I'm not sure of is ochre, which is problematic. Someone suggested that it could be a riverside ironworks city, but based upon what I can see either Rome or even Lisbon might be better in that regard. Ochre could move south to claim another grassland riverside tile, but in its current location it is next to a river and can therefore build a levee as well as getting the health benefit. If it does become the riverside ironworks, it could also then build the Three Gorges Dam.

Anyway, the above would give Spain 7 cities--an excellent base for launching an invasion of Portugal and then Rome, wouldn't you say? It also happens to be just enough cities to go after that Horse Whispering quest.
 
I hate reading your updates. It makes me want to fire up a game :) . Nice work settling your second city. When played a shadow, Jao beat me by one turn because I made a stupid mistake and wasted a move through the woods.
 
I wonder why you haven't switched to OR civic since you already have switched to Jud religion??? Those missionaries will help expand boarders especially in Seville if you want to take the corn tile before Augustus and the extra 25% towards buildings especially forges will be helpful.

If you're planning to play peaceful, COLs or Currency seem to be useful techs you keep your economy afloat while you rex the jungle, obviously you want to settle Gem City if you want another happy point from forges.

If you're planning to knock out Joao then Obviously a Construction beeline through Maths for Cats and opens up Engineering.

After that picking one of the two you'll probably want to go down Aesthetics and Literature for GL, especially with Marble for a Liberalism Beeline to MT.

I know Artist's can bulb Nationalism if you've gotten all the Religious and Artist techs. Meaning Divine Right and Music and everything before it. if you can somehow get the Free GA from Music and somehow bulb DV with a GP, then a MT beeline will be very easy but that's kind of off track and may delay your Engineering beeline for your UB, but the option is still there... just in case you get lucky lol.

Btw be very careful I get the feeling once AC (Augustus) finishes expanding on his side of the continent he'll spam Prats to own you, he has Iron in his Capital's BC... *Lucky Bastard*... The only thing you can do it either, spam Axemen, bulb theology for theocracy civic allowing you Shock Axemen or a Beeline to Machinery for Crossbows. The best option in my opinion, in this case will probably be a Construction beeline for Cats, another incentive to go attacking Joao while defending your east with cats.
 
Definitely go for the Horse Whisperer. Madness? This is Spain!
Then again, on Emperor thematic reasons may not be the best of ideas.

Man, going overseas with Conquistadors. I can only hope there's Huyana waiting. :)
 
Very interesting landmass you've got here--I would prioritize founding blue and purple on your dotmap next before AC gets tricky and sends galleys out that there with settlers. Build a trireme from one of those cities and see if there's any more land up north.

Briefly on Portugal: it is worth scouting out his capital to see if he has any metal there asap--I think you mentioned you signed OB with him, yes? Now is a good chance.
 
:bowdown: All hail Izzy, Judaic Warrior-Queen!

All she needs now is a slingshot and a tall, stupid, menacing Portugese ...

Looking at Joao's territory, all he has is horses. It's possible he has metal in his BFC but I doubt the AI would be given two strategic resources in one city's BFC. That means Joao has archers and chariots and that's it.

If we were in Joao's shoes, we'd tech to Feudalism to improve our archers. So let's conquer him now before he gets that bright idea. With the land he has, Joao could settle, at most, two more cities -- one to the far west, and one to his east, though he'd have to get there by ship now that you've blocked him. :goodjob:

Archers and chariots means you attack with swords and spears. There's nothing an axe can do against Joao's forces that a swordsman or spearman can't do better. I don't think you need to wait for catapults, but if you're close to construction it wouldn't hurt. At the most he has a walled city with 50% cultural defense and fortified CG I archers. Not easy, but it can be handled without cats. Assuming Joao has all five cities when your SoD arrives, I would think you'd want something like 12 swords and 4 spears, with reinforcements coming as they're built.

While you're waiting for iron to be hooked up and/or finishing Construction, you should have time to pop out a settler to the blue city and cut off Augie. It looks like his part of the continent can support 3 or 4 more cities easily, so let's hope he occupies himself with that. I find Augie is easier to deal with than Julius, though once Joao is gone, that may change.

Agree with the previous poster re: getting Crossbows somewhat soon to deal with Augie's Praetorians.

Colossus in Barcelona, I presume? Before or after the conquest of Joao?

I say go for the Horse Whisperer quest after Joao is defeated. 7 free horse archers would make a nice addition to your Rome assault stack.

Techwise, I'd finish Mathematics then pick up Currency and Code of Laws. Even though the markets are horribly expensive at this stage, the extra trade routes give you instant income to offset new/conquered city maintenance.

I wonder why you haven't switched to OR civic since you already have switched to Jud religion??? Those missionaries will help expand boarders especially in Seville if you want to take the corn tile before Augustus and the extra 25% towards buildings especially forges will be helpful.

I do this too. I'm so eager to convert to the religion (whether it's Judaism, Confucianism, or Christianity) that I forget to switch to the civic. :blush:

Last point: I don't see the benefit of keeping open borders with Joao any longer. The last thing you need is a chariot or two of his running around behind your lines and messing with your workers.
 
Horse Whispering? Now there is a new one!

A horse is a horse, of course, of course
Unless of course it is a talking horse
But who ever heard of a talking horse
(Whoever heard of a talking horse!)
Well listen to this:

"My name is Mr. Ed"

:lol: :lol: :lol: Well we have heard of stalking horses, however...

I'd definitely go for this quest - if your UU is mounted, you should be specializing in experienced mounted units from the get go, even if the UU has to wait until MilTrad. Save money for upgrades.

Try to trade for HR, but if that is impossible (likely due to lack of partners after Joao is gone), I'd research it.

You're going to need to also build an effective seagoing capability, both to discover the other AIs (and attack them with your super-duper mounted corps), and probably to efficiently take out Augie C. , since the land route is obviously bottlenecked. I'd guess that Astronomy could be a priority. Liberalism sling?

Or you can let the world come to you. Note that the BtS AI tends to prioritize Astronomy.

But that is the thing with Izzie: her optimal tech paths tend to correspond with the AI favorites, making tech trades a bit of a challenge. In fact I go as far as to say that one should be tight-fisted with techs playing Izzie. That means prioritizing "internal" sources of flasks.
 
Great work! no civ shows up certainly put chariot rush into less favour.

I suggest u playing peacefully as builder and tech to your UU and UB then go to war. that will keep up your research with other continent by tech trading. There must be religious war on the other continent, so u can take backward civs later and achieve domination win.
 
personally sisuitil I'd follow this path:

rex, first blue then red then pink.

and garrison all of your cities with a spy asap.

since you have tech lead against augustus, he will likely infiltrate you with a great spy.. while there is no way to stop that.. the best you can hope for is to cutoff his ability to cripple your cities or steal your techs. setting up 3-5 spies in his way will greatly hamper his ability to do any signifigant damage.

tech towards construction and wipe portugal out asap. that way you can focus on rome.. hopefully you can get some leg up against potential praetorian invasions.

but you can not delay too long.. otherwise you are 100% right about being dogpiled.
 
Rex... gems>horse>stone

...If Joao's the one you compromised (by settling Barcelona where you did) I'd suggest looking at Augustus just as much as Joao, and maybe even more so. 4 Axemen landed just off the coast of his iron could cut him from prats.

But expect everyone to form a cozy Jewish block, and if you pull off the rex you'd have the land edge. Compass and the other C's for economic techs and the only thing to trade for Caesar's happiness resources are stone, marble, horses and copper. Hopefully bronze can get you both of them, one way or the other.
 
Well, you've done exactly what I would've done in the circumstances, and things look to have worked out quite nicely so far. :goodjob:

With only three civs on this landmass, there's a strong chance of there being another continent with four AIs on it. With that in mind, plus plenty of land to settle and the iron-enabled Romans boxed in out back, I wouldn't be looking to take out the Portugese right now. A round of two of REXing, building and tech-trading seems the best choice to me, with one eye kept firmly on our military capabilities and the diplomatic situation.

Don't get me wrong. Joao needs killing in the not-too-distant future. But I reckon we can use him and Augustus to advance ourselves in the global tech race a little before that becomes necessary.

Where the quest is concerned, I'd say ignore it for the time being. HAs don't seem that useful at the present time, and it'll take a long while to get to a point where building seven stables would be worthwhile. Bear in mind that it would be cheaper, and much more straightforward, just to build seven HAs if we needed them.

The builds almost choose themselves in this situation - settlers, workers and military units take priority. The difficult question, for me at least, is which tech-path to pursue:

Spoiler :

Machinery is the one tech which would make those boxed-in Praets less terrifying, and puts us on the road to Optics for our future colonial adventures. Plus, it would almost certainly be of great value in trade. But (and it's a big but) it's horribly expensive, and would divert us from some more economically important discoveries for some time.

Construction would give us some added security, is on the way to our UB, and is considerably less expensive than Machinery. The downsides are that there's no way we'd want to trade it to either of our neighbours, and it doesn't do anything for our economy.

Currency would help to pay for our REX, make CoL cheaper, and could probably be traded with our neighbours for Monarchy and/or Calendar for yet more economic goodness. But we could find ourselves in serious danger on the military front.

CoL has similar advantages and disadvantages to Currency, but with the added bonus of helping on the espionage front, and the added cost of being more expensive if we don't get the other tech first.

Aesthetics is the cheapest option, and would allow the construction of some economy-boosting wonders while opening up Literature for yet more shiny playthings. But it won't be much use for trading, and leaves our military looking rather inadequate.

Theology would give us a shot at the AP, which could sort out our diplomactic situation nicely, and give us a boost in the production department. The Hagia Sophia could also work out well, speeding up the development of our expanding empire and giving us some (potentially) very useful GE points. Another religion would also be nice. But it's very expensive, diverts us from economic and military research for a long while, and we wouldn't want to trade it away 'til we'd built the wonder(s). We could, perhaps, bulb it with a Prophet, but that would mean waiting a long while for what would surely be a very profitable (lamentable pun fully intended) shrine.


It's a tough choice, but at the moment I'm leaning towards Currency--Construction--CoL. A bit risky on the military front, and totally devoid of wonders (except the ever-popular Chicken Pizza), but perfect for setting up our economy before we go after Joao.

ps. I used a spoiler to save space. There's nothing in there that Sis shouldn't be reading.
 
I'd take on the horse whisperer quest, to get the +1 food in every stable. Spain could have 2 UBs all of a sudden ;)

I'd also finish my expansion before going to war against portugal.

But then again, I'm only on Prince level (almost Monarch... Almost there!!)
 
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