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ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. Kietharr

    Kietharr Prince

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    I'd found the last few cities up in the north before Agustus decides to expand. In BTS the AI recognizes when it is being blocked, he could easily overwhelm your city on his borders and run out to settle that land while you're busy defending Madrid from praetorian hordes.
     
  2. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I think you are between a rock and a hard place. Neither AI is particularly trustworthy, and neither will tolerate being boxed in for long. My prediction is that if you declare on one, the other may likely come at you.

    I think tech wise you need to beeline machinery real fast so you can get crossbows to neutralize the Prats.

    Build am army real fast and hit Joao hard, partcularly Lisbon. Have some good defensive units on the Roman border just incase. Forget the missionaries.

    Also watchout when Agustus gets Currency. He can build the Forum which adds 25% to GP production, he could get a real big tech lead on you real fast if your stuck warring with Joao too long.

    Like I said, a tough situation.
     
  3. MrFelony

    MrFelony Prince

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    well it should probably be jao first just because he's close to your capital so little maintanaince compared with Caesar. just buffer your cities over there with walls/axes. even if he does sneak attack, he'll be preoccupied with reducing 50% defenses for several rounds.
     
  4. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    They definitely know each other or else they would not be willing to trade archery - the AI does not trade away techs it thinks it has a monopoly (mansa being the exception). I think the glance screen does not display 0 if the modifiers cancel each other, so it is well possible that there just are no + or - modifiers or the addition yields 0.
     
  5. Indibil

    Indibil Chieftain

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    They both have a +4 relationship, Joao and Augustus I mean.

    Thus they know each other.

    On the other hand and quite more importantly, is it a 5+ Praetorian stack sitting at Neapolis? I'm only glancing through the screenies, but if that's true I'd start worrying about Augustus' intentions...

    Some shock Axes stationed in those border cities could do wonders in keeping Praets at bay and playing nice with that adopted son of Gaius Julius wouldn't hurt, to be honest.
     
  6. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    D'Oh I made the same mistake as the poster I was replying to: None is for attitude towards self of course :blush:
     
  7. Indibil

    Indibil Chieftain

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    Inderdeedio, ori.

    Scanning through the whole round 3 post I see that Augustus (at least) has 3 Archers and 1 Axe in Neapolis, apart from whatever number of Legions he has built.

    However, if he starts stacking those Praetorians, Sisiutil could bloody well find himself at the wrong end of an invasion.
     
  8. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    I think you gotta continue the rex. The sites up north are better than Joao's land (other than the capital) anyway. And the sooner you can open borders to get your trade routes multiplied by 2.5 the better. And cheap harbors (and citadels) will only help.

    Economy wise, the biggest impact you can make by far is a prophet for the jewish shrine. Among other things, get a xtian missionary in madrid to speed that up. At present, CoL won't be too much of a help; Courthouses are expensive and cutting 10 :gold: in half is like currency's extra trade route, only with Currency you don't have to spend the hammers. With the bonus on CoL, definately Currency first.

    But whether it's Currency right now is up to you. I thinks it's that, Aethetics on to the GL, or Machinery. As much as Augustus' mini stack in Neapolis could destroy you, this is the AI we're talking about. You got Theocracy and shock axes so once those NE cities get resonable populations you can whip off a couple defenders at a moments notice, it's only the immediate present you need to make it through. But have you seen his land? other than Rome, he has no production. Whenever you do decide to take him over, i think you'll find it a cakewalk. But if you wanna go on the safe side, Machinery erases any threat coming outta the NE.

    Growth wise, I'm a little worried about Madrid's growth rate. Cottaging definately got you to where you are, but I'd consider farming on the river grasslands. I understand you're running a preist, but 3 :food:/turn with five more pop to expand into isn't all that pretty. On the other hand, Barcelona looks ok, and I'd even cottage it some more, in fact it needs a worker or two down there right now. Seville, your current :hammers: city, looks like a good spot for the Colossus (and probably the Moai Statues too).

    I think you settle the two food spots up North (loosely timed with the completion of the shrine) and open borders. If your countryside's speckled with roman/portugues cities so be it, they won't be in good sites. Maybe you make a run for the GL maybe you don't, but I'd keep the economy tight (Currency, Compass, unit costs too), and wait for a better day (Machinery -> Engineering).
     
  9. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    3 Prats, 1 Axe, 2 Archers. Sisiutil's got one Axe in Seville. We could definately use a couple more Axes. And I love how Seville's pinned up into the mountains. By land it can only be accessed from one tile, the one closest to Caesar.
     
  10. xanadux

    xanadux King

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    I would definitely be worried about war coming too soon for you here. If at all possible, bribe Rome to war with Jao. Don't forget that any trade you make with Rome will make an automatic peace treaty for 10 turns. If you can't get him to war with Jao, you can at least get 10 turns more to build forces. Someone mentioned in another thread that making a demand also forces 10 turns of peace. I haven't tried this myself, but if you know it's coming, 10 turns will help. What is troublesome about a war with Rome first, is you will likely burn catapults against his stack, and need to build a lot of shock axemen which are non-ideal promotions to take out Jao. This is going to be very rough if you can't get the 2 AIs at war with each other. I would be very suprised if either AI chose any path other than war against Spain in the near future unless you do something about it.
     
  11. Chrispy

    Chrispy Warlord

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    Yeah, I see that now. Mental note: don't read the latest entry before coffee.

    That could make a switch to Christianity a consideration again, but I think a quick Swordsman war with Joao while prepping the Roman border with Shock axes makes more sense. That's a lot of hammers to push into missionaries considering a planned switch to Theocracy.
     
  12. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Warlord

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    Jaoa has been described as a backstabbing b*. If you attack Augustus, Jaoa will backstab you. Augustus is more likely to watch you square off against Jaoa. Augustus' Praetorians are more likely destined for that barbarian city than poised to take Seville.
     
  13. petey

    petey Prince

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    Signing a trade deal causes 10 turns of peace, right? If that's the case, you may want to cancel your current deal with Augustus and then resign it just before you attack Joao. That way, you won't have to worry about Praets marching in while your units are busy on the other side of the empire.
     
  14. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    That's what I'd expect too. But it's better to be safe than sorry, so a couple of shock axes to guard our backdoor while we beat up on Joao would be sensible precaution.

    Actually, this raises another question: if we have the opportunity, would it be wise to get Caesar to join us against Joao? On the one hand, it would keep us safe from a Roman sneak attack during the war, and give us a diplomatic boost to make the inter-war period more secure. On the other hand, it would probably mean Caesar building even more troops, which we'll eventually have to deal with.

    :hmm:
     
  15. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    If you asked me which 2 leaders NEED to expand, meaning they are not happy if they cannot, Agstus and Jaoa would be at the top. If there are off shore lands they reach by galley it's not too much of a problem, but if the only way is through Spain, there's a problem

    Knock the weaker one out first.
     
  16. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    Nah, i think it's only asking for a tribute and getting it, or giving in to an AI's demand, that creates a Peace Treaty for 10 turns as well. This is probably supposed to avoid the trick of asking a huge tribute to a weaker Civ, only to invade it a turn later.



    On a sidenote, i recently read someone (i believe it was Unconquered Sun, but i could be wrong, sorry if it's the case) say that you should have about +100 beakers/turn when reaching the ADs. Sis is at +33 at the moment. So i must admit i'm a bit doubtful when i read people say that other Civ son other continents won't be too advanced because of their use of the espionage slider.
     
  17. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    I think that doing a quid-pro-quo trade doesn't get you a 10 turn peace treaty, you get them when there is a demand/request that is accepted. So if Augustus demanded a tech as tribute or asked for one as a favor to a friend and you give it to him you get the 10 turns of peace, or if you make the demand and he gives it to you. But just trading corn for wheat won't do it. You also don't get th treaty if the demand is refused.

    The whole point is to prevent someone from extorting a tech from someone else and then still attacking after the victim pays.

    Zienth
     
  18. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    Isabella can still make an unsolicited gift and get the 10-turn window, which would not only protect Spain's flank but soften Augie up for other diplomatic measures, like converting to Christianity or attacking Joao.
     
  19. petey

    petey Prince

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    Ya, I used to love doing that. I still remember my heartbreak when I first found myself unable to attack after taking his last ten gold just to be a dick before I wiped him out.

    If gifts work, though, we should do that instead.
     
  20. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    Glancing through these remarks made me consider more longterm plans than most suggest.;)
    I'd say our continent is really small for 3 civs, so even with the absurd variety of this type of maps we can safely presume a larger one across the oceans. Thus a far more suitable than the current one to use as the home continent if aiming for domination.
    This ofcourse suggests withholding from expanding over say 5-6 cities here. Such a choise is aided by the fact we ve blocked most land to our use, and moreover that we control most :commerce: land of the continent.

    Do we NEED more land right NOW?
    I mean getting Joao's land would at best mostly retain our tech rate, while getting us more :hammers:. :hammers: we have no pressing use for. Thus he is a less desirable target.:D
    August's land does have a couple :commerce: jewel cities though.

    Plus keeping a wonder maker (August) around is not neccessarily a bad thing, and seeing as Joao techs towards optics could provide us some useful tech trades.

    Now here's what i suggest:
    Aiming for improving current land with an emphasis on teching towards liberalism and through him to astronomy ASAP. The fiery warmonger in me wheeps often over such strategies, but in BTS you have to plan ahead how to rule the world before you introduce it to fire and axe.;)

    I recon some of you worry about uor neighbors bringing the war to us:
    Keep in mind his is a chokepoint border city. An army of size 5 with equal defenders and attackers suggest simply a watchful eye. Stil in order for xbows to rid us of such threats, in the near future, machinery is a priority. However them alone can mostly see us through up to knights era.

    Along with CoL ofcourse, but no currency. Even if we were to REX and then OB the whole thing would postpone the need for currency quite a while. Plus we can make maximal use of the Theo bulb to get quicker towards liberalism. Bureaucracy early would be nice but not essential. Aesthetics and the GL however stil feel much more tempting.


    Disadvantages? Why, yes, obviously. Not going strongly after Engineering and strong trade routes means not showing off the UB witch is a pretty hard task even if aimed properly.:mad:
    Some hope of making a better job with the UU remains...
     

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