ALC Game #2: China/Mao

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I'd say..Pyramids is probably too expensive

Capital=Great Prophet City: Stonehenge/ Oracle/ Early Army
->Food+Priests once Religion is available->Cottage up for Culture once you want to switch from Prophets to Artists (still has decent production from Floodplain/Hill Combo if you want to grab some other Wonders ie GLibrary especially to get a quick scientist)

Stone City=Early Army/extra city, It has decent Low level production (a few Hills +Cow) eventually convert to Cottages

Silk city=Food based, long term Artist GP farm (Parthenon goes here)

Silk and Capital would be two Culture Cities, third Moscow?

I'd say Stone, then Bronze, then either Take or Settle Marble, and Settle Silk and start Chopping For Parthenon (while Oracle Starts/Chops in the Capital)

If you go with the plan of founding the last few religions, then I'd put the First Shrine in any religion that got founded in the Capital.

(because Prophets can get Philosophy as well as Scientists.. just the Prophet will prioritize DR/Theology)

 

[Nares]

As for Wonders, I agree, SH and the 'mids are definite possibilities, with a good chance for either Oracle or the Parthenon (or maybe both? fingers and toes are crossed!) once I snag the Marble.

As far as Great People go, it's been my experience that the cities with Wonders have a distinct advantage over a GP farm that's Wonder-free--which they often are; all those farms don't exactly lend themselves to production. At least in the early game; a GP farm doesn't really kick in until mid-game, I find. Also, in the Montezuma game, I built too many Wonders with different GP contributors in the same city, the capital. This made it nearly impossible, I found, to (a) control what type of GP I would get and (b) make another city into a viable GP farm.

So I would like to distribute and group the Wonders, if at all possible, into cities with similar GP-producing Wonders.

Stonehenge is cheaper than the Pyramids (120 hammers versus 450), and city #2 doesn't have many forests for chopping, so I think the 'henge should be built there rather than in the capital. The more expensive Pyramids should go in Beijing, where they can be chop-rushed quite handily. This would practically guarantee that city #2 will generate one or more Great Prophets and that Beijing will pump out a few Great Engineers. Later, I can use specialists to help this along. I'm looking forward to the fruits of that Philosophical trait.

On the other hand, this Wonder/GP strategy would lead me to try building the Oracle (because it, too, generates Great Prophets) in city #2. In my experience, especially at Prince level, you have a lot more competition for the Oracle. I've never built it on this level without chop-rushing it. That's going to be a limited option in city #2 with so few forests. I'm now running Slavery, so with those food resources, I might be able to whip it, but that option may be available too late.

Thoughts?

Yeah, here's some. Stonehenge is going to be fairly easily built. You should have a fogbuster or two (one north, one south of city site 2), which should reduce the need for a garrison in city 2 long enough that you can start it on Stonehenge as soon as you found it (and then connect the Stone and Wheat).

The Pyramids are an awesome wonder, but definatly a balancing act between getting more Settlers/Axemen/Workers out and tying up production in your second city. Even with Stone, they take forever, and that city isn't going to be producing many hammers. You can get them, but you'll have to delay your attack on Catherine (which might not be a bad thing).

The way I see it, there's two important things to note about your second wonder (Stonehenge being too easy to build to not build it, and that Great Prophet being very tempting for CoL).

First, The Pyramids are nice, but Great Engineers are hard to spawn until way later in the game. You can only get one Engineer specialist from a Forge. Between what little Great Engineer points The Pyramids provide and what little you'll get from your single Engineer specialist (Caste System does not apply to these guys), you're going to be fighting against your other cities in terms of Great People points. That is to say, it's more than likely another city will pop a Great Person (and subsequently increase the cost for the next pop) before your GE pops (because there's so few GE points). Not to say it's impossible, just not something to rely on (like the nice fat 100% Prophet or Scientist rates you can get at this point).

Second, if you do build them, choose their location wisely. City 2 is not a good choice, but you'll need a city to build The Oracle (timing is a factor here, and I'd rather have it sit waiting in my queue to complete than get a message someone built The Oracle with 10 turns left for me to complete because I put them in a low hammer city). You'll also need a city to be churning out Settlers/Axemen/Workers (depending on how many cities you decide to build). And you may want to build The Parthenon (50% in all cities is nice). Or even The Great Lighthouse or The Colossus.

Getting back to Great People, you'll need to use your first Great Prophet on Theology, because you're going to research Masonry so early. This means it can't be used for Code of Laws, which you'll need to research so that The Oracle can be used to research Civil Service. If you're going for a Cultural victory, you'll want the religions, so you'll probably want your second Great Person to be a Great Scientist (for Philosophy, after Mathematics), and your third to be a Great Prophet (for Divine Right).

You'll also want to keep Machinery a high priority. Cho-Ku-No's are an incredibly powerful unit for their era, especially when you factor in experience upgrades (Drill III...). I suppose you could try to use The Oracle to grab this (it's only slightly cheaper than CS) if you don't feel you can get done with CoL before you need to pop The Oracle. This would also be more in line with 1) an early military campaign against Catherine, and 2) popping a GE (through earlier Forges), though I think you'd still need The Pyramids.

 

[JoeBlade]

Hmm, seems I misjudged the image: hooking up more than 3 food resources in stone city isn't possible. In that case I'd definitely go by my initial feeling and have the silk site as GP farm.
Dr Elmer Jiggle's suggestion of pushing stone city up by two tiles and founding in another city south of it (with 2 fish) may not be such a bad call. As I stated earlier I can discern very few decent sites so you may have to accept a bit of overlap and more thinly spread resources. Might be possible to squeeze in another city to the south of your capital, though that could be stretching things.

Otherwise, I like Krikkitone's general plan. SH + Oracle in Capital is pretty much in line with what I suggested earlier; I reckon the Prophets should be well worth the trouble for the later religions and maybe Civil Service. The silk site can indeed be turned into a Great Artist farm afterwards.
I'm not quite convinced on Parthenon and Pyramids however. I'd say the latter is actually the more realistic option as both are very expensive in terms of hammers while you should have the stone hooked long before the marble (cathy will indeed probably settle near the marble soon) The GE points would either be wasted or risk interfering with great prophets though, so I definitely would NOT build pyramids in your capital, should you decide to persue that path.

I'd strongly suggest building a few more warriors or scouts in those cities that are not building wonders, as to clear the fog tiles. I would even consider building them before barracks; those will only become important once the copper is hooked and your cities are interconnected (for axemen)
With some luck a new potential city site could be revealed.

 

[vormuir]

I just want to say I'm enjoying the heck out of these threads, and I'm grateful to Sisutil for playing and posting.


Waldo

 

[pigswill]

More complications. At the moment any cities you build won't start off with culture. Optimum location for stone city is two tiles away from stone so inaccessible til stone city has got some culture to expand. As I commented earlier need 3 very good sites for your legendary cities for cultural victory; as Dr Elmer Jiggle commented stone city would be a good city but not a great city.
Options: Build Stonehenge in Beijing without stone bonus to get culture and use stone city for pyramids. Build oracle in capital, Col slingshot, confucian missionary to stone city for culture and then stonehenge with stone bonus.
Stone city near stone in sub-optimal position: minor city rather than legendary city.
Edit: checking Sisiutil's dotmap he can get stone within first ring. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[voek]

i agree with the wonder spread. The reason why i would take a shot at the PY in the stonecity, is it will generate a GE. The GE could be used to rush Hanging gardens (extra pop and health) and causing to generate more GE free points. 4 points, with forge 6. (maybe 9 with parthenon) It would be a small GE farm which you can use for the latter culture wonders... You will need another big GP farm offcourse.

 

[Mutineer]

I would shift city N2 one up and add one more city with 2 fishes down at the corner. Hight food cities are good, even if they do not have mach land to work with.

I would investigate is there any food resources near GOLd. Gold gives instant commerce that can catapult your early research up and it is + 1 happiness.

There potential a good GP farm or commercial city east from Silk near floodplance.
Terran near cooper neer to be explored to dicide city location for claiming cooper.

 

[pigswill]

Sisiutil: I'm wondering if you're thinking about Pyramids because you usually go for Pyramids ( no offence intended). Going primarily for a GP strategy you'd likely be better off with Parthenon and good chance you won't get both.
Pyramids would most likely give you early Representation (happiness and bit of extra research). Parthenon gives you extra GP points which are harder to acquire than research and temples would give you happiness + culture

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Parthenon gives you extra GP points which are harder to acquire than research and temples would give you happiness + culture

Don't forget that he's already Philosophical. IMHO that makes the Parthenon less attractive. I guess you could make the case that it plays really nicely into Mao's natural strengths, but I would argue that it's somewhat redundant. You already have increased GP production. Maybe go for something else from a wonder. I mean, sure the Parthenon is always nice to have, but I'm saying if it comes at the cost of something else, then "something else" is probably better.

 

[futurehermit]

i think seeing more of the map might help some of these decisions. another screenie?

 

[Nares]

i agree with the wonder spread. The reason why i would take a shot at the PY in the stonecity, is it will generate a GE. The GE could be used to rush Hanging gardens (extra pop and health) and causing to generate more GE free points. 4 points, with forge 6. (maybe 9 with parthenon) It would be a small GE farm which you can use for the latter culture wonders... You will need another big GP farm offcourse.

The problem with this is that your other cities will be out-GPing wherever gets The Pyramids/Forge/Hanging Gardens (I don't think the last is possible without one of either a GE or luck {ie the AI doesn't build it for some otherwise unknown reason}). 4,6, or 9 points is nothing compared to the 30+ you should be pumping out with Priests or Scientists at this point. Simply put, the cost for a Great Person will rise faster than your GE farm can reach it to pop one.

Basically (and this is probably by design, similar to the lack of a Ind/Phi leader), GEs are small chance pops in cities that are otherwise dedicated to one of the other Great People types.

 

[Sisiutil]

i think seeing more of the map might help some of these decisions. another screenie?

Agree, and will do.

Real life intervened last night and I didn't get a chance to play. I guess having a job is necessary, but it sure does cut into my Civ time.

I'm still a ways off from having my first settler ready, so I have time to do a little more fog-busting before making any final decisions about city placement. Which is why the first dotmap was so tentative.

Keep in mind that even if I end up going for a cultural victory, the three cultural cities don't all have to be among the first three (though they do have to be brought on-line fairly early). Keep in mind that I am definitely planning on axe-rushing Cathy. Capitals like Moscow are usually in very good locations, so it could become one of the three.

In addition, when I play cultural, I usually like to have at least two other cities allocated for military production and wealth. I may build Heroic Epic in one of the three cultural cities for the GA points and culture, but I may not build a lot of units there. This means I need another top-notch production city pumping out units, possibly without the help of HE. Ditto for Wall Street, although that's less of a lost opportunity than building HE in a city that won't produce a lot of military.

And finally, this early in the game, I think it's too early to peg all my hopes on a cultural win. Anything is possible at this point. More fog-busting both north and south (past Moscow) is required.

EDIT: Nares, that's been my experience with GEs too. If I build the Pyramids in a city without other Wonders (i.e. not the same city as Stonehenge/Oracle), I will almost always get a GE as my second GP (after the Great Prophet from Stonehenge). After that, however, other cities generally keep leap-frogging the GE city--even if I build Hanging Gardens there too, and a forge for the lone Engineer specialist. If I get another GE in early/mid game, it's a pleasant surprise. But as I said, Pyramids usually, in my experience, guarantee one GE in the early game, and that alone can be invaluable and one more reason the 'mids are worth pursuing.

 

[Nares]

Don't forget that he's already Philosophical. IMHO that makes the Parthenon less attractive. I guess you could make the case that it plays really nicely into Mao's natural strengths, but I would argue that it's somewhat redundant. You already have increased GP production. Maybe go for something else from a wonder. I mean, sure the Parthenon is always nice to have, but I'm saying if it comes at the cost of something else, then "something else" is probably better.

I'd say that The Parthenon's better for a Philosophical leader because they're already getting +100% in all cities from their trait. +150% makes for multiple GP farms in the early game (before you can really get a solid one going). Versus National Epic, which merely mimics the Phi trait in your (already established) GP farm, and eats an otherwise useful National Wonder spot. The question is, what can your other cities do to compensate (so far it seems one is building The Pyramids, one will need to work on The Oracle, and Stonehenge should be a joke once Stone comes online, even to a size 1 city).

EDIT: If 15 squares of fogged terrain are too "revealing," then this was a x-ray.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

The problem with this is that your other cities will be out-GPing wherever gets The Pyramids/Forge/Hanging Gardens (I don't think the last is possible without one of either a GE or luck {ie the AI doesn't build it for some otherwise unknown reason}).

I don't understand what you mean here. Why do you need a Great Engineer or luck to beat the AI to a wonder that it isn't even trying to build?

 

[Nares]

I don't understand what you mean here. Why do you need a Great Engineer or luck to beat the AI to a wonder that it isn't even trying to build?

For The Hanging Gardens? Because you're going to be doing lots of other things (I would assume) before getting around to it. I guess it depends on what you want to use The Oracle for, or how long you think you can hold off on popping it (because you need to go for Mathematics early for THG).

Also, it's my experience that if you choose to horde things like religions or wonders, the AI will compensate by setting one or more AI civs to race you. Now, if you want to prioritize THG, you could pull it off. But I think it'd end up costing you either more religions or another wonder or cost you so much time in not building up military forces that the AI will be ready to invade you. If you had to go for one more wonder, I'd suggest The Parthenon, as it'll help crank out an extra GP or two you otherwise wouldn't get without it before it becomes obsolete. +50% in all cities is great this early, when GP costs are relatively low and multiple cities can pop them.

To Sisiutil: I generally like pumping out Scientists and Prophets faster than waiting on a slow Engineer. Maybe you should try to split the Engineering points and give multiple cities smaller chances to pop one. It'd work better with the single Engineer specialist per city, even if it did throw the occasional curve ball. Scientists and Prophets can be readily used to research Philosophy, Theology, Divine Right, Education, and (maybe) Liberalism, besides Scientist specialists improving your research efforts.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

The last couple attempts I've made with Mao, I've been able to establish a "Settler factory" to avoid gettign hemmed in and losing out on valued resources and important cultural cities. Then the next three cities work on Stronehenge, the Pyramids and the Parthenon. Also, in this process, I make the moves towards three holy cities. The only problem I have is mixing aggression into this building spree. I still can't get to nine cities, and I need Swords to fight the Malinese (Who seem to be my neighbours too frequently).

 

[Sisiutil]

(3rd Round, to 1760 BC)

Well, this has gotta be one of the most awkward maps I've played on. I mean, there's resources everywhere, but a lot of useless or next-to-useless mountain, desert, and tundra tiles in the way. Not to mention ocean; good thing Organized gets me cheap lighthouses!

Anyway, here's the recap.

First off, I got the wheat and the cows hooked up near the capital, then finished my Settler (with a single chop to help) and started on Stonehenge. I continued exploring with my Warriors, sending one north and one south past Cathy. No more goody huts, thanks to Cathy's dang Scouts.

Here's where I put city #2, Shanghai:

Notice something interesting down at bottom left? Horses! Yep, that's what Animal Husbandry revealed--and another source southwest of Beijing, closer to Cathy. So I put Shanghai there, even with the three (!) mountain tiles, so I could, as several of you suggested, eventually put another coastal (VERY coastal) city south to snag not only the other fish tile, but also the horses.

My warrior in the north encountered more barb animals and eventually reached Level 3:

I game him a Combat I promotion rather than Woodsman II because I'm sending him home to Beijing to protect it.

And the neighbourhood is getting awfully crowded:

Hmm, Mansa the technophile and Monty the psycho. Interesting mix of Civs on this continent, which must be larger than I was surmising.

It made me glad I'd sent a Warrior southwards to keep exploring. He was the first one to encounter a barb Warrior:

Yeah, he saved Cathy's Scout there. Think that'll earn me any brownie points with her? No, I didn't think so either.

The first power rating appeared, and it's a little worrisome now that Monty is on the continent:

At least Cathy isn't looking much more formidable than me. Also on the up side, I managed to finish Stonehenge WITHOUT a single chop, and without the stone hooked up!

Beijing has a +5 health bonus from forests, even after I chopped one to hurry the Settler. I don't ever remember having 11 forest tiles around a city before. Even if I don't hook up that marble, I think I should go after the Oracle and just chop it.

Now here's what the map looks like:

Yes, I have started on the Pyramids in pop 2 Shanghai. I first built a Warrior there, who will protect city #3, which will be founded by the Settler I'm now building in Beijing. Now, if some of you think the 'mids are a mistake, I'm prepared to abandon them, but I think once the stone is hooked up (the worker is on that tile right now) I have a shot at them. With Mansa around, Representation's slight tech boost could be very valuable.

If you look closely, you'll notice a copper resource outlined in Russian burnt orange. Cathy has bronze. And within Moscow's fat cross. The little minx.

City #3, I think, has to snag that copper and start producing Axemen without delay, or I'm gonna get mugged by either her or Monty. The good news is that there is deer, fish, and cows near the copper; the bad news is you can't snag them all in the same fat cross.

And the tech tree thus far:

Once I get fishing, I'm done with the immediate worker techs I require (I'll need hunting before too long, but I can probably pick it up cheap or even in a trade). As I mentioned above, I think I should pursue the Oracle in the capital. With so many competitive neighbours, I need every edge I can snag, and a free tech definitely qualifies. In addition, I have not pursued any of the religious techs so far, so it's time to play catch-up if the GP I'll get from SH is to be at all useful.

At this point, sorry to say, I am leaning towards abandoning a cultural win. Aside from the capital, my initial cities are going to be a little weak. And warring on Cathy, since she can now produce Axemen, is not going to be a cakewalk.

I would like to snag those two additional early Wonders for the advantages they'll give me, get the copper hooked up with city #3, maybe build one more city, then turn early warmonger. I want to wipe out Cathy and then weaken either Mansa or Monty--possibly both, but in a Machiavellian way: I'd like to see if I can turn Monty into a pet dog and sic him on Mansa to slow down the latter's research. Risky, but possible.

I would like to claim some decent territory through the early wars, expand southwards into some better city sites, then close off my territory from Mansa and Monty and try for a space race win if I can relegate Mansa to also-ran status. I may eventually have to wipe out Monty if I can't leash-and-collar him. Heck, I may have to mop up everyone on my continent, just like in the Montezuma game. Bee-lining to Cho-Ku-Nus suddenly makes a little more sense.

And I'm not compeltely sure how to fit religions into this potential mess at the moment.

Anyway. My thoughts may seem a little scrambled here because I am shifting strategies and victory goals based on what has been revealed. As always, your perspective is appreciated.

Let's look on the bright side: this looks like it will be a much more challenging and interesting game than I first anticipated.

 

[The Tyrant]

I would like to snag those two additional early Wonders for the advantages they'll give me, get the copper hooked up with city #3, maybe build one more city, then turn early warmonger. I want to wipe out Cathy and then weaken either Mansa or Monty--possibly both, but in a Machiavellian way: I'd like to see if I can turn Monty into a pet dog and sic him on Mansa to slow down the latter's research. Risky, but possible.

I agree. I'm usually a bit wary of Pyramids, but that's just because I play on Monarch and have learned to stop trying for them. In the ALC-Montezuma game, however, you showed it is clearly a possibility on Prince. With stone hooked up, I say go for them. If you can snag them, that would help a lot. Getting that wheat hooked up for Shanghai should definitely be a priority.

Getting the copper hooked up: Terrain is really proving challenging here. Once again, the copper city is going to be sub-optimal. Bad terrain and no real production other than the copper. I'm not at my civ computer and don't remember the bonuses for deer. If the bonuses aren't that great, and you wouldn't mind the loss, then you might consider placing city number three on top of the deer. This would let you use those two floodplains that will otherwise be wasted. Of course, this would mean being one tile away from the coast and having to wait for the borders to expand before you could start mining the copper. If you're willing to lose the floodplains in favor of a coastal city, placing it north of the deer nets you the fish but you still have to wait for the borders to expand. NW of the deer means no wait but less useful terrain. Ugh. Ugh all the way around.

I think it would be better to place city 3 north of the capital (copper/deer/maybe fish) -- one of the three options mentioned above -- rather than northwest (copper/cow). Going for copper/cow would take you off the free trade route, mean more overlap with the capital's tiles and leave the eventual northern city with even less desirable options.

Cathy has axemen and the AIs tend to go heavy on units. Uh-oh. You're going to have to play rough with Cathy. Since one of your better cities is going to be tied up building the Pyramids, you may want to consider placing city number four to snag the horses. Building the extra settler would set you back on military builds, but the extra city could help make up the difference.

 

[JoeBlade]

Quite the turn of events there. I'd say Monte and M&M's precense are a good news : this implies you're bound to discover several additional good city spots, possibly with nice pre-build cities on them With what the fog has revealed that's more than welcome I reckon.
Another welcome bonus is that you'll be able to snag one or even two early religions from them (Monte's already founded Hinduism it seems), which is a great boon for a culture victory.

Speaking of: what's the situation on the religious front? I assume Buddhism has been founded, most likely by a distant civ? If Judaism hasn't been founded yet though either M&M or Cathy may yet found it for you.

Tyrant: the bonus for deer is 1/2f (with camp), and +1 health. That last one is a welcome addition; health is gradually becoming much less of an issue. I noticed bananas to the south and suspect more resources will be revealed later on. All in all the resources part is looking far less bleak than initially.

I'd put the copper site 1n of the deer myself: you'll have to accept two useless mountain tiles and 2 semi-useless ocean tiles but with the extra food you will be able to work all the tiles without or with very little farms I think. So if you were to cottage all the remaining tiles it'd make a rather neat commerce city, with no overlap whatsoever with your capital.

Another good commerce city site would be near the horses. I see 3 possibilities there:
1w of the horses. Pros: 2/3 flood plains (1 shared with Bejing), no ocean tiles whatsoever, 2 hills within fat cross, river access. Cons: no resources other than the horses, 2 overlap with capital, virtually all plains.
1e of the horses: Pros: +1 fish, only 1 ocean tile without resources, no overlap with capital, 2 extra forested grasslands. Cons: only 1 hill (shared with Shanghai), 2 overlap with Shanghai.
2e of the horses: Pros: +2 fish. Cons: 3 overlap with Shanghai, +2 resourceless ocean tiles.
I'd forget about the last option because you're essentially trading workeable tiles for ocean tiles there, although you'd gain a fish in the process. It also produces most overlap of all three possible sites. So either 1e or 1w of the horses. I'm slightly in favour of the latter option (1w)
Mind, this city is no priority as it's well hemmed in between Bejing and Shanghai. Don't wait too long though or you could see one of those Settler galley pests appear...
I would settle the silk site after the copper, if early war so permits. Cathy may otherwise settle nearby, I suspect.

I too would still stick with Oracle in the capital as the extra Great Prophet points alone would be well worth the trouble IMO.
Tech-wise I'd pursue Priesthood first, then Writing (both for CoL slingshot), then Sailing (= cheap lighthouses) and then IW. You'll probably have your first war either ongoing or over by then so I reckon the next steps will depend on the outcome.

Good call on Pyramids BTW: even if you miss out on them the cash injection should keep your research at 90% or even 100% for quite some time. You may even beat M&M in the tech race thay way.

Victory-wise I'd say all options are still open. I'd still like culture to be honest, simply because it's a nice change from the classic warmongering victories

 

[pigswill]

It has become more interesting but still too early to rule out cultural victory as yet. Copper city is a priority only for the copper;early/mid game the best thing to do with it would a small worker/settler factory; hook up copper and fish and probably deer and then largely forget about it. Surely need to expand soonish but if you go for Oracle in Beijing first then you'll have a small prophet factory without having to compromise anything else. Maybe once Oracle is done go for silk city as eventual commerce/culture city. If Cathy doesn't beat you to it then production city based on marble next. Pyramids with stone is more feasible than parthenon without marble so despite my earlier comments go with it.
Cathy seems to be heading south; with a smidgin of luck she and Monty will fall out. If so you may have the option of war alliance with Monty which would help long term diplomacy.
As I said in the pre-game, early expansion followed by defensive posture is a good option;cho ku nu fits in well with this, especially with narrow land borders around Moscow.
Tech-wise still worth going for original plan of Col from Oracle; religions from prophets though a lot depends on wether Cathy heads mainly south or north.
Other option for Oracle would be machinery but that would mean heading fairly quickly for iron and metal working, both with relatively long research times. If you don't have iron life will get even more interesting but good chance that you will.
Edit:checked tech-tree:don't need iron for machinery, silly me.