ALC Game #2: China/Mao

[voek]

Good thing Mansa is there for the tech trade! Now alphabet becomes more important. I agree on maybe forgetting cultural, but hey i am not a cultural guy in the first place.

Good call on the Mids in the stone city. I think most peeps agree. The point on the GE 'factory' btw is you will prob. have a few GE's, say 2 or 3 in the whole game. But that's ok, you don't need more, although more isn't bad. Other farms will outpower this one, but that is only a good thing. You want to decide which GP's you are getting as much as possible. All i am saying 2 or 3 engi's isn't to bad. Besides, if you don't have the marble you might use the GE for GL if it comes in time. Well not very big issue. You can always decide later.

Seeing that bronze near Moscow i have a little regret you didn't try to grab a worker from Cathy. It would have net you a worker and maybe more important would have held up cathy to develop Moscow and improve the bronze, making it easier for the early axe rush. It only cost one or two warriors extra and might save you a lot of axemen later. Cathy would be angry from the start but she has to die anyway, that was clear from the start.

I am also curious about the other religions. Another thing i am wondering if it will be possible to build the Parthenon after the Oracle. Depending on the situation (war with cathy) you might want to take a shot when you have the marbe... But again, that's after the Oracle, so no need to worry yet. Nice game, again, anyway.

 

[pigswill]

Quick question. Off topic but not (I think) big enough for a seperate thread. I'm playing a Mao game as well:different map, sharing a continent with Genghis and Louis in the middle; Tokugawa in south; Tog spamming units and being generally aggressive (no surprise). I spect Tog will get Samurai before I get to gunpowder so the question is what's the best counter for Samurai?Options include elephants (flanking 2?), cho ku nu(drill 2?), macemen.

 

[voek]

CKN, they will eat them alive. it's a melee unit so even unpromoted CKN will stand a good change against the improved macemen. If you use them it might be nice if you share your experience in this thread since it might help the OP in this game.

 

[JoeBlade]

Quick question. Off topic but not (I think) big enough for a seperate thread. I'm playing a Mao game as well:different map, sharing a continent with Genghis and Louis in the middle; Tokugawa in south; Tog spamming units and being generally aggressive (no surprise). I spect Tog will get Samurai before I get to gunpowder so the question is what's the best counter for Samurai?Options include elephants (flanking 2?), cho ku nu(drill 2?), macemen.

I'd advise CKN's as well: they're definitely the best counter to strong Melee units. You may want to try for at least two levels of promotions for another +25% against melee. Also keep them in pairs if possible, such that when the first CKN fails the second can finish off the Samurai (who should've suffered colleteral damage by then)
It'll still be close though, the Samurai's first strikes can be quite painful against any opponent of comparable strength. If your predicament is particularly bad you should consider aiming for chemistry, and grenadiers, ASAP.

Don't even bother with macemen or other melee units BTW, Samurai have melee for breakfast.

 

[pigswill]

Thanks guys. kind of what I suspected. I might try pairing elephants (flanking 2) to see if they protect CKN.
Edit:thinking about units in general, CKN upgrade to grenadiers or rifles and ultimately infantry. Infantry is essentially vanilla so specialising beforehand and upgrading gives some variety:axe/mace for city raider; CKN for garrison/drill/geurilla is a way to get specialist infantry. Might become relevant to Sisiutil's game in the long run.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I kind of agree with the others that it's too soon to rule out cultural entirely, but you do need to start preparing for abandonment. You haven't located Montezuma yet. He might be far enough away to be a non-factor. If both Catherine (looks definite) and Mansa (at this point we don't know) are acting as a buffer between you and Montezuma, that might actually work in your favor. On the other hand, I've tried a few times to pull a cultural victory out of thin air with bad territory, and it always turns out to be a bad idea.

I'm for putting copper city on the coast where it can snag the fish and the deer. That gets you a bunch of non-ideal territory (ocean, mountains, tundra), but I just can't stomach putting a city one tile away from the coast. When the AI does it, that's a must-raze condition. It's hypocritical if you do it yourself. ;-) I don't think you should worry too much about the fact that the borders need to expand before you get the fish. With Stonehenge, that's going to happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Fetch]

City placement: #3 1N of the deer. #4 1W of Horse, both of which were mentioned and justifed above.

As an aside thought to help prevent spoilers, you may want to lock the assets, or whatever they're calling it now so readers can't enter the worldbuilder.

Just a thought.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

#4 1W of Horse

1 west of the horses only gets you one of the two available fish. 2 west gets both fish. Alternatively, right on top of the horses loses the horse production and one of the fish but gains 2 flood plains.

 

[Fetch]

1 west of the horses only gets you one of the two available fish. 2 west gets both fish. Alternatively, right on top of the horses loses the horse production and one of the fish but gains 2 flood plains.

You're thinking East, which isn't a bad call either.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

You're thinking East, which isn't a bad call either.

Oops! Yeah, west is interesting. No fish, but several flood plains. You trade off overlap with City #2 for overlap with the capital, which is pretty much an even trade. You also have no ocean if you go west, which is good.

 

[pigswill]

Sounds like you're talking about city 3 going s.e. of Beijing. Its a reasonable spot butI'd have thought at this stage you're better off expanding towards Cat than backfilling.
Unless you feel like doing something uncoventional such as a chariot rush.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I agree. The silk city is still a prime spot, and marble is still there for the taking. But someone suggested getting horses soon, and if you want to do that, then southeast of Beijing is the place to get them.

At any rate, I think we're really talking about city #4. I think it's sort of a no-brainer that city #3 needs to get some metal.

 

[Fetch]

A city 1 E of the silk for #4? You don't get the wheat, but you do get 6 floodplains to make up for it. I think this will also put you on the river to Bejing for trade, but I don't know.

If you go 1 NE of the silk, you get the wheat, but lose 2 FPs. Cows are yours either way.

 

[pigswill]

Dear Doctor, you're quite right.#3 is metal,#4 up for debate.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah I think City # 3 should be on the coast by the river, no real production
(besides the copper), but decent food, and a good amount of food [deer gives food], so it can become a mid level Commerce City. plus that hooks it up faster.

City #4 Marble (given that Cathy has Metal, I'd try going for that if you can get to it soon enough)
I'd say at least temporarily shift from planning to take Moscow to simply expanding (axemen with Combat->Shock rather than City Raider) [be nice to Cathy for a while]

I think that between Cultural and Space can actually be decided slightly later, founded religions can be useful for either one (shrine gold/multiple monasteries) the only real decision is Scientists v. Artists for your main GP city. (and in Space Race you want to to be a bit more expansive.)

That will affect where you build the Parthenon, (Silk city seems best GP farm so you want Parthenon there if Cultural, Parthenon elsewhere if Scientific)

Researchwise I'd go Poly, Mono, Priest, Writing, Alphabet (by the time you get Priest the Marble for City #4 could be Hooked up)

Prophet-> Theology (Christianity And Theocracy when necessary)
Oracle-> CoL (Confucianism and Courthouses and Caste)

Which can then be traded for other useful techs (ie Metal Casting/Math) when Alphabet comes online.

Pyramids in Stone city is probably good, it can get decent production

 

[Sisiutil]

This is great stuff, gang, thanks. I'd probably do a lot better in all my games if I only played a few turns, stopped for a day, thought about it for a while, and came back to it.

Yeah, like THAT'S ever gonna happen. This is the intensely-addictive, just-one-more-turn Civ we're talking about here.

I was thinking the same thing with city #3: 1N of the deer. The +1 health of the deer is the deciding factor, with all those floodplains around. With Stonehenge in place, having the copper in the second ring is not as much of a concern.

I've noticed in several of my games lately that copper is in far-from-ideal locations, while iron seems to appear within the inner ring of one of my core cities. That can't be coincidental.

If Cathy expands south and lets me snag the marble, that would be great. I think I will have a look when I'm ready to build city #4. If she has the marble, I can then either go north to the silk or east to the horses. Assuming the marble is free, however, which would be the best city site? There's gold in them thar hills, an oasis, and horses nearby too. The plains tile 1 SE of the marble snags 1 gold and the horses and is a comfortable distance from Moscow. There are two plains hills there as well, though, for +1 production and a defense bonus--very much a factor with Cathy so close and our relations doomed at some point. The problem is that the hills will let you get either one gold or the horse tile, but not both.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd prbably go for the hils 1 S of the Marble, gets Gold and is a good 'Forward position' That territory has plenty of production so the Horse really isn't necessary, the Commerce from the gold is probably better (and you can access Horses elsewhere pretty easily when you need to, the Gold is a pre calendar +Happy, and defensible as it is on a hill.)

Actually, you might want to go Math and Then Alphabet after Writing, so that you get the better Forest yield (cause you have a lot to chop). The alternative is trying to trade for Math.

 

[pigswill]

Marble city got nice resources but needs food to grow, so I'd say SE of marble to get the horse on grassland. OTOH even if Cathy expands mainly south she'll likely put a city somewhere near the marble so you're likely to end up with wherever Cathy locates or raze and start again. So unless you want horses quickly I'd reckon silk city is more likely candidate for City #4.

 

[Nares]

Quick question. Off topic but not (I think) big enough for a seperate thread. I'm playing a Mao game as well:different map, sharing a continent with Genghis and Louis in the middle; Tokugawa in south; Tog spamming units and being generally aggressive (no surprise). I spect Tog will get Samurai before I get to gunpowder so the question is what's the best counter for Samurai?Options include elephants (flanking 2?), cho ku nu(drill 2?), macemen.

Combat 2 or C1+Shock CKN. Drill is good for suicide CKN and cleanup crews.

EDIT: Put city #3 1SW of the Cows NW of the capital(aka 2E of the silk). Put city #4 either on the coast down south (if your borders have expanded to meet the Copper), or 1N of the deer (if your borders have yet to reach the Copper, and won't any time soon, which they should).

 

[Sisiutil]

SIDEBAR: Start-of-game city tile assignments

I thought I'd share something I've been intiuitively aware of in the past, but really leveraged in the first few turns of this game.

There's always a lot of discussion about initial build orders in the first few turns: Warrior-Worker-Settler and so on. Whatever order you choose, of course, you want to produce those units as quickly as possible. Once you have a Worker, chopping is a very attractive option.

What I became cognizant of was the effects on these builds of the tiles I was having my citizens work in the first few turns.

Anyone who starts by building a Warrior usually does so to allow the city to grow to pop 2, since starting with a Worker freezes growth. Ideally, you'd like the Warrior build to complete and the city to grow on the same turn. You can achieve this, or close to it, by carefully managing what tile the 1st citizen works. The AI usually assigns that citizen to a food-heavy tile; you may have to shift the citizen to a tile with better production to balance the build/growth times.

But there's another consideration. Research.

Many unimproved resource tiles, and tiles next to rivers, provide additional commerce right out of the gate in addition to food and hammers. This commerce goes straight into research, since it's running at 100% at the start. It's not much, but in the early game, it can add up. I'm pretty sure by managing the tile assignments carefully, I gained at least a turn or two for a couple of initial techs.

You can really leverage this when you're building a Worker or Settler, since for those units, food counts towards the build as much as hammers do. I moved tile assignments from production-heavy tiles (forests) to food and commerce ones (flood plains) when building the Worker and Settler. Not only did I build the units faster, I also gained commerce for research.

Every time the build order for the city changed, I went in and changed the tile assignments. It may not make a huge difference, but in the early game, little things really add up.