ALC Game #2: China/Mao

[neptune2000]

Sisiutil (can't seem to quote your text):

You're absolutely right, a commerce or 2 in the beginning can make all the difference, especially when racing to a tech, eg. for Buddhism or Hinduism. I don't have the game in front of me to get the exact commerce generated automatically in the capital, but in the beginning of the game, each extra beaker is sizable percentage of total beakers. Starting next to a lake (2 extra commerce at city size 1!) is especially nice. And since the AI automatically has your pop working food tiles, it probably does the same in its own cities.

By the way, I followed the Montezuma ALC and have been enjoying this one too. Thanks very much for doing it, and thanks to the others posting hear. I've been learning a lot!

 

[Sisiutil]

(4th Round: to 600 BC)

The universe is unfolding as it undoubtedly should.

3rd city, Guangzhou, founded:

Thanks to the Philosophical trait, the Great Prophet appeared lickety-split:

Shhhh...the Prophet is sleeping. Notice I'm researching Alphabet? I have Fishing, Meditation, Priesthood (obviously), Writing, and Hunting now. Mansa discovered Monotheism and is now Jewish. Since Mansa's in the neighbourhood, I may as well take advantage and trade with him for some of the other techs I have no doubt missed. If I can get a couple of the Religious ones from him (Polytheism and Monotheism, I'm hoping), I should be able to quickly use the GP for Theocracy. With Philosophical and both Stonehenge and the Oracle in the same city, I'm practically guaranteed another GP for Confucianism's shrine.

Whoops, got ahead of myself there. Yes, as you might surmise from that screenshot, two turns later:

And with only one chop, and no marble! Cathy, as you'll see, has already snagged that.

So Mansa and Monty have religions? Well, nya-nya-na-nya-nya:

Hmmm...poor Cathy, with no religion of her own! Once I get Organized Religion, I should try to convert her. Yes, right before I kill her.

And Mansa is already trading with me:

Which leads me to believe he must have Sailing, because I don't. Put that on the list too. We'll be talking turkey in...what is it now...six turns.

And, the icing on the cake appeared just a few turns later:

One chop only, gang. Hooking up stone early pays off. But Shangai is getting unhealthy fast with no forests, so I want to hook up that deer right after my worker is done with the all-important copper. I'm also building barracks in my cities--well, except Beijing, though it's next in the queue once the Settler for city 4 finishes.

I changed civics right away (yes, I remembered!) to Representation. I have not, however, changed to Caste System yet, even though CoL has made it available. My thinking is that with the copper just coming on line, I may need to whip Axemen if I get rushed by barbs--or Cathy.

China's and Russia's borders, you see, are starting to encroach on one another:

You'll notice from the position of the Warrior that I have Open Borders with Catherine. Check the score display and you'll see that I've got them with everyone. Yup--got a Warrior way down south, scrounging around. Wouldn't do to have my boy cut off from home.

Speaking of which, more of the map has been revealed:

I'm thinking Mansa may not be long for this earth since he has Monty next door and they have conflicting religions. Another reason I pushed for Alphabet, just in case he's not around or useful for tech trading later.

Next turn, my fourth Settler appears. Does he go northwest to the silk, wheat, and cow, or southeast to the horses and fish? My power rating is pretty low right now, and I'm getting worried Cathy's going to take advantage of that--I mean, I've got a bunch of attractive Wonders she could steal. I'm going to push my Warrior over to her closest city and see if she's gone axe-crazy (shudder).

And, as always, the saved game if you want to take a look:

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

3rd city, Guangzhou, founded:

Wow, that has to be the worst looking, highly recommended by everyone city I've ever seen. 3 tundra, 3 ocean, 2 mountains, no forests.

Next turn, my fourth Settler appears. Does he go northwest to the silk, wheat, and cow, or southeast to the horses and fish?

My feeling is that unless you think horses are going to be the difference-maker in a war, you don't need to backfill yet. Expand west where you're competing with Russia for territory. Furthermore, the silk city looks to be a stronger overall city than the horse city and with less overlap. So, again, it really comes down to the horses. If you think you need horses, then there's no choice but to settle southeast. If not, then there's really no good reason to settle anywhere but northwest.

As far as war with Catherine, you'll have to do some recon, but my intuition is that you're not going to wipe her out or take Moscow during the first skirmish. You might just take marble, beat up the rest of her forces a bit, pillage copper (if possible) and sue for peace. Even if that's all you do, taking that marble gives you 20% more cities and gives her 20-25% fewer. At this stage in the game a one city swing in power is huge.

This might also be a good opportunity to try to goad Montezuma into joining the crusade. You'll gain a friend (it's much nicer to have Montezuma as a friend than an enemy) and keep Catherine occupied in the south.

 

[Sisiutil]

Wow, that has to be the worst looking, highly recommended by everyone city I've ever seen. 3 tundra, 3 ocean, 2 mountains, no forests.

My feeling is that unless you think horses are going to be the difference-maker in a war, you don't need to backfill yet. Expand west where you're competing with Russia for territory. Furthermore, the silk city looks to be a stronger overall city than the horse city and with less overlap. So, again, it really comes down to the horses. If you think you need horses, then there's no choice but to settle southeast. If not, then there's really no good reason to settle anywhere but northwest.

As far as war with Catherine, you'll have to do some recon, but my intuition is that you're not going to wipe her out or take Moscow during the first skirmish. You might just take marble, beat up the rest of her forces a bit, pillage copper (if possible) and sue for peace. Even if that's all you do, taking that marble gives you 20% more cities and gives her 20-25% fewer. At this stage in the game a one city swing in power is huge.

This might also be a good opportunity to try to goad Montezuma into joining the crusade. You'll gain a friend (it's much nicer to have Montezuma as a friend than an enemy) and keep Catherine occupied in the south.

Good advice. As I said in the Monty game thread, I find Civ IV's mounted units to be of limited use during warfare. They're primarily pillagers and scouts. And they tend to manage one pillage and then die. So no, they're not a priority.

In addition, I would rather give Catherine a closer target than my capital to rush at. If she does an early rush on me, the silk city will likely be her target since it will be closer. With no Wonders or shrines (? - who knows, if my GP pops Theology), it's somewhat expendible.

And yes, it should be very easy to goad Monty into joining in. But only if necessary. Usually, if an AI Civ declares war on me before I'm ready, I go looking for allies. But if I declare war when I'm good and ready, I'd rather they butt out.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Silk seems better than Horses, it has more Forests, good for starting up a GP farm.

Anyways, after that 4th Settler I'd swing to war preparation for a while.
If you want to take more than Marble City, I'd research towards catapults, as the capital culture will be significant. (40% at least, possibly 60% if she built obelisks I don't know the turn #, but she's got at least 4 cpt there)
Teaming up with Monty sounds like a good idea, hard though as you will be a different religion than him and Cathy is neutral.

So I think the choice is
Marble City or wipe out Russia
if Marble city just gear up some Theocratic Axemen (Shock/City Raider 2).. maybe some spears if Cathy's getting Chariots. Heavier spears if she has HAs
if Russia the same but research to Catapults. (take Marble city and pillage while the Cats come online)

In any case trade away to get yourself to Prophet-pop Theology, I'd hold off on the Shrine though. If you can get a Holy City in your Capital the Shrine would be best there, because it allows priests if you want to pump the next few prophets. (for DR/Philosophy/Shrines for those) and right now the shrines are less valuable.. only 2-4 gpt so they can wait

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Shhhh...the Prophet is sleeping. Notice I'm researching Alphabet? I have Fishing, Meditation, Priesthood (obviously), Writing, and Hunting now. Mansa discovered Monotheism and is now Jewish. Since Mansa's in the neighbourhood, I may as well take advantage and trade with him for some of the other techs I have no doubt missed. If I can get a couple of the Religious ones from him (Polytheism and Monotheism, I'm hoping), I should be able to quickly use the GP for Theocracy.

You could... but I'm thinking you missed a bet here. First note: you are 6 turns out from alphabet. You need Poly and Mono, which you can't get on the same turn anyway. So you are at least 7 turns out from Theocracy on this line. I'd be a bit worried that somebody is going to beat you to it in that time.

On the other hand, had you built the Shrine, Shanghai could be pulling down 22gpp/turn for you, and you would have another prophet in hand by the time your trades were finished.

Besides, shouldn't you be gunning for Taoism, instead of Theology? The Angkor Wat is a stone wonder, after all.

Given the current situation, I would probably be looking at
1) Settling the silks
2) Whipping a Library at Shanghai - possibly a granary first, but 2 scientists + the 'mids should spit out a scientist in about 20 turns (maybe sooner if they beat Beijing to the 200 mark, but I don't think that happens, even if you hurry). During this period Mathematics should be cleared off the decks, so the Scientist can be cashed in for Philosophy.
3) Monastery in Beijing, and missionaries for everyone; the idea being to maximize the chances of landing another religion in Shanghai (first step, insure that every city has at least one religion already). If you have the capacity, a missionary or two to Cathy would likely be a good idea.
4) Granary and a camp for the deer in Guangzhou. Guangzhou, Shanghai (when it isn't busy generating GPP), horse town, and the deer fish town on the NW coast should all be leaning heavily on the whip to get infrastructure built.

I wouldn't worry too much about the horses just yet. Fog busting will alleviate the need until the north is settled.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Silk... good for starting up a GP farm.

I hate this answer. I think Silk is a much better choice for the HeroicEpic/GlobeTheater combo, or some other production magic. The surplus food is too spread out to make a good GP farm in the early going. Shanghai, with concentrated food, and priest specialists should do quite nicely for a production/GP combo - especially if the Angkor Wat comes in.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I was thinking about a later GP farm for mid-late GPs (Artists if Cultural Win, or Scientists if Space Race).. anyways the Forest/Floodplain combo makes it a decent quick startup city.

And the problem with a Shrine at Shanghai is that it is the Engineer farm.. with Pyramids, mucking up any priests you might get. (at about 20%+ chance of Engineers)

In any case what's needed now is a focus on war, the land greab is basically over (after Settler #4.. there's really only one good spot left)

One slight remaining thought, from the recent SDK, it appears that any city you have without religion will be Very likely to be chosen as the Holy City for a new religion, so Christianity would probably end up getting founded in whatever city is left non-Confucian.)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

One slight remaining thought, from the recent SDK, it appears that any city you have without religion will be Very likely to be chosen as the Holy City for a new religion, so Christianity would probably end up getting founded in whatever city is left non-Confucian.)

Ooh, thanks for the push, I've been meaning to look into that.

Assuming this code is valid (and that I'm translating it correctly), there's a big weight factor against the capital - so in practice I think a new religion will never go there if there is an alternative city available.

Beyond that, the important characteristics are number of religions (fewer is better), population (more is better), and order of founding (tiebreaker). There is a random term, but it is of the same order as population size.

So, to land a second religion in Shanghai, you would want to (a) get as many religions as you can into Guangzhou and Nanjing (b) whip Guangzhou and Nanjing right before the religion comes in and (c) make sure that Shanghai's population is as large as you can arrange.

(a) is the important step, though.

For those interested in checking this themselves, the relevant function is CvPlayer::foundReligion in CvPlayer.cpp

 

[Nares]

One slight remaining thought, from the recent SDK, it appears that any city you have without religion will be Very likely to be chosen as the Holy City for a new religion, so Christianity would probably end up getting founded in whatever city is left non-Confucian.)

Odd, as I had three start in the same city of four cities (total) in a game where I discovered six religions (missed Buddhism). Actually, that game was off this start. My experience is that it's random, but only enough as to be founded in any city except the one you want it found in.

City #4 should be 2E of the Silk. City #5 should be 1N of the single mountain square west of the Silk. City #6 should be in the southeast corner of your empire (due south city #2). City #7 should be on the hills south of the capital (it can get 2fp and some hills without affecting any of the capital's squares).

Naturally, you can skip any of these cities, but I particularly suggest #4, 5 and 6 (6 for the two Fish, 5 because it has Deer and Wheat, and 4 because it's a great production site).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah, given that Bejing has the Prophet Wonders it might be easier relying on Temples for the extra Priests you need there (and it has the Wheat, Cow, Wine and Floodplains to support a few) Each new religion can basically give you one more Priest. (and you could, once the war is over, and if no one else seems to go for it put CI there too..Stone again, I think)... get A.W. with Philosophy and Spiral with D.R. and you can take care of the Prophet needs without too many specialists
(and some other city gets turned over to GPing something else... because the Prophet Wonders get at Most 20-25 depending on Parthenon, which is beatable by 3 specialists in a GP farm (27-31).)

And I'd go for the Silk city as 1 W of the Silk... get 6 Floodplains that way which makes for an easy GP Farm (one that can whip if it needs too)

Then War

Then the Southern Horse-Fish City.

A Northern Wheat-Deer City could be built
Maybe a City in the Direct South of the Capital... but those last two sort of concentrate cities a bit.. of course they provide Sea Gold, which may make up for it as you don't seem to have many cottages, and it may be a while before they get going.


as for the Holy city Location, from what I saw the Religion factor is divide by N+1,
so zero religions is double the score for 1 religion, but 2 v. 3 is only a 33% difference.. easily overridable by the random factor.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Edit 2xpost

 

[The Tyrant]

and some other city gets turned over to GPing something else... because the Prophet Wonders get at Most 10 GPP base, which is beatable by ~4 specialists.. and a good GP farm should run more than that.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that way (specialized GP cities). I've seen so many posts that say having only one GP farm is optimal, and it is if all you're interested in is maximizing the GP total, but if you want a reasonable amount of control over which GP you get when then specializing GP production can work wonders. (Pun intended)

 

[Nares]

Yeah, given that Bejing has the Prophet Wonders it might be easier relying on Temples for the extra Priests you need there (and it has the Wheat, Cow, Wine and Floodplains to support a few) Each new religion can basically give you one more Priest. (and you could, once the war is over, and if no one else seems to go for it put CI there too..Stone again, I think)... get A.W. with Philosophy and Spiral with D.R. and you can take care of the Prophet needs without too many specialists
(and some other city gets turned over to GPing something else... because the Prophet Wonders get at Most 10 GPP base, which is beatable by ~4 specialists.. and a good GP farm should run more than that.)

Heh, reminds me of the GE discussion earlier. I ran this start and managed to make a GE farm, but it's fairly crippling to your economy and mid-game teching (need to sacrifice other GPs to get the GEs to spawn at all, really).

To Sisituil, I see a few things that can be done. For starters, you'll need to expand to between 5-7 cities (depending on what you're taking from Cathy). You need to build infrastructure, which means the three Cs (Cottages, Courthouses and Currency). To facilitate this, you'll need Organized Religion (Monotheism), Serfdom (Feudalism), and Mathematics (for Currency). Get a GS ready at some point to pop on Philosophy (Pacifism, +100% GP birth rate, and Taoism). Use Great Prophets on Theology and Civil Service.

In terms of military, you'll want Archery(Longbows, Horse Archers and CKN), Iron Working (at least to see if there's Iron, even if you don't actually need CKNs for victory), Construction (Catapaults), Engineering (Pikemen/+1 road movement), and Machinery/Civil Service.

I don't know if you really want to go for more wonders. I'd grab The Parthenon, and then worry about getting The Great Library and otherwise working on generating Scientists/Prophets (they're the easiest at this point to pop and mesh best with the Liberalism race). No matter what victory you're going for, getting ahead of the AI in tech will help. That's only possible with Great People, specialists, Cottages and religions.

 

[pigswill]

You've been too busy building wonders to get an early axe-rush so you've missed the boat on that one;fair enough, you can't do everything. It has to be said that I was pushing for wonders as much as anyone else.
You obviously need to expand further and Cathy's the only target but its gonna take more preparation. With all this lovely tundra and similar crap you can expect a bit more barbarian activity so need to run off a few axes as a starting point.
Mansa could be heading towards theology himself, hard to say but possible. How much will you get in trade for CoL, quite a bit but not everything he's got. You'll find out soon enough.
Feels to me like you're heading towards crunch time in this game:expand or fall behind. So military production it is,can you afford police state? Catapults could be the tie-breaker. In the meantime what about a monastery, try to convert Cathy in the first instance (before someone else does).
No mention yet of GL,wonderwise that's usually a higher priority than parthenon or most other things at this point. Silk City could be home for that. My guess is that you're aiming for theology as much for theocracy as the religion; if you miss Christianity its debatable theocracy is worth burning a prophet for but that's obviously your call.
On reflection at this point I'd say forget the clever stuff; go military, get marble city and moscow virtually at all costs and then decide your objectives after that.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Yeah, Cathy definitely needs to be knocked around, if not completely wiped out. If left to her own devices, she'll just cause trouble, not to mention she has got to have better land than you, though coastal squares aren't THAT bad....not great, but at least they're self-supporting commerce with a lighthouse, which Mao gets even cheaper than usual. You may want to try and stir the pot elsewhere as well. Always helps when Mansa has to drop his mad tech-rush to stave off Monty...so they don't bother you, naturally. And I'm not sure about inviting Monty to the Cathy beating....at this stage, he's liable to bite off quite a bit more than one would like....

 

[Sisiutil]

Good stuff, gang.

I liked Nares' suggestions for the next few potential city sites, so much so that I plotted them on a dot map:

I think they make the best of a far-from-ideal situation. Keep in mind that depending on how conflict with Cathy goes, some of these cities may not be founded for quite some time--if at all. This happens to me a lot when I start warmongering: I plan to peacefully settle several more cities, but then I find it's easier to take someone else's. And by the time I can spare some hammers for Settlers again, my borders have expanded to include the resources in those areas. Yes, I know you need a city there to take full advantage of them, but it just makes that a lower priority.

Interesting points on Philosophy/Ankor Wat. I have, in the past, completely undervaluded that tech. I think I've only founded Taoism once, and built AW just as often. And I've never burned an early-game GS for a tech. If things work out, I think I may try to follow this path, just because I haven't before and want to see how it plays out. A lot, at this point, depends on what techs Mansa is willing to trade once I have Alphabet in a few turns.

As for other Wonders and such, yes, the Parthenon has kind of dropped of the radar. In some games, I find the AI makes it a low priority, so I may take a run at it a little later if it's available and I have the breathing room. Great Library is, however, becoming my next target for the tech boost.

I'm totally with Tyrant on >1 Great Person city. I've tried but just cannot get a city surrounded by farmland, with no Wonders and low production, to truly compete with cities with Wonders in terms of GP production. A big problem I have with it is that the city adds very little value to my civ other than the occassional GP. It just plain sucks for both commerce (science/wealth) and especially production, even with specialists.

I have more success if I try to put Wonders in the same city as other Wonders with the same GP production, then add specialists accordingly. The cities then leap-frog one another in terms of GP popping, and it makes it much easier to control the GP produced. National Epic usually goes in the Science city with Oxford, since I still think GS are the best over-all GP.

That being said, I quite like the idea of making city #4 the science city, since it will have very good if not excellent commerce from the silk and floodplains. In my recent games the capital often contains Great Prophet-producing wonders like SH and The Oracle, as in this game, and that makes it a little harder to guarantee the production of GS.

 

[pigswill]

One of the things I've found is that once I've got Great Library its very hard for a GE City to keep up because the Prophet and Science Cities leapfrog each other, you'd likely need forge and HG to stand a chance. On the other hand what do you plan to use a GE for? Ifyou're going for spaceship then its lots of GS; if you're going for culture then lots of GA.
Addendum: I've also been playing a mao game with genghis,tog and louis. At one point genghis was building wonders and louis declared war on him. At first I thought they hadn't read their horoscopes but I then noticed that genghis had stone. Maybe resources trigger behaviour changes in AI in which case Catherine could turn wondermaker on you.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I liked Nares' suggestions for the next few potential city sites, so much so that I plotted them on a dot map

Looks good. The only one I think I have any doubts about is the southeastern one that gets horses, fish, fish, wheat. If you move it one tile west the net change is +4 plains, -4 ocean, -1 fish.

If you ignore the fish, it's obviously better to the west. 4 plains vs. 4 ocean, I think you go with the plains every time, especially when you have adequate food. So the question is, is the second fish worth the tradeoff?

I'm thinking no. You don't need it for health, because you'll already have 2 other fish. You don't especially need it for trade, because you'll already have one extra, tradable fish. You don't need it for food, because by my count that city will have a +1 food surplus even without that fish.

I don't think it's obviously wrong where you have it, but I think it's definitely debatable.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One point, if you go for the GL, (post-war you'll have the marble to do it well) then I'd probably drop the cultural idea altogether and go for Space Race (focusing on GS) because GL will interfere with the GAs that are needed for a good Cultural run.

I'd probably put all the 'Other' Wonders into 'Stone City' as mentioned you probably Won't get a GE out of it, so make it your Randomizer (Engineer, Artist, Merchant Wonders there, so their GPs might get you something semi useful..ie Free Tech/Wonder/Specialist.) Keep Capital as the Prophet Wonder.. and Silk makes a good Science City (4 National Epic Scientists wo Caste System if you get GL... for 45 gpp 86% scientists)

I agree the Horse city is questionable... you should get Horses with Mable city, the only point to a city there is Extra Trade goods, or blocking terrain. So I'd say moving it 1 to the W is probably a good idea (better for blocking off area S of Capital, and the Fish it loses will get picked up by Holy Stone City).. and that makes it a better production/commerce spot.

Also if you go Space Race, I'd start preserving those Capital Forests as it can become a Major production center (alternating between Prophet Wonders and Army early game... to Spaceship Parts/Army Late Game)...only cut down the ones on hills (if there are any of those left)


As for using the Great Prophets for Shrines, I'd wait till you founded all the religions... then put the first Shrines in any double/triple Holy cities you might have. (to become a gold center).