ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[absimiliard]

I think, now that we know the map better, that Sisiutl probably should have settled in place. The GP farm could have gone to the triple-fish city, and the capitol would have more production, and of course the western fish could've been used to feed cities on the western island.

But his play has been good since then, so I guess it doesn't matter too much.

At this point I would count on being isolated. I think a keyhole spot is unlikely, not impossible to be sure, but unlikely.

Alas that leaves me out of the advice loop. I'm horrible in isolated positions.

-abs

 

[LlamaCat]

it would be nice if you posted a few screenshots of your capital or other key cities to show what tiles you are working and give your micromanagement thought process (are you working cottages, any specialists?) After playing most of a shadow game, I'm really surprised you grabbed the Great Library and grew so quickly to your happiness cap and apparently had so much money. Then again, I didn't pop Metal Casting from a hut... I popped a map

 

[futurehermit]

I finished a game the other day where I was on an island with just Genghis. I was playing as Capac, he was close, so I took him out very early meaning I was essentially isolated. I ended up winning domination.

The goal for me is to develop a strong economy and tech to tanks/bombers. Then take people out trying to force capitulation asap. I had to capitulate everyone in the game I played to win, but usually if you capitulate a few of the larger empires it is enough to get you a domination win. Alternatively, when isolated going for cultural/space is pretty straightforward.

 

[Refar]

Should not you be winning Conquest if you capitulated all ?

 

[Daedal]

Hopefully there's at least one neighbor relatively close by that we can greet with several galleons full of CR3 berserkers. After that any victory condition is fine. Domination through capitulation would be fun to watch, but would be micromanagement late game warmongering hell for Sisiutil. The spaceship has a nice ring to it too, Vikings being explorers and all.. It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to turtle with a strong navy and tech to victory, especially once those intercontinental trade routes get going.

Anyway, the game seems to be going well so far. That state of the world tech standing is very telling. Even isolated, Sisi is still on par with the world. Berserkers and galleons seem like the next logical step along with a few more cities.

 

[Porphyrius]

I think you are in a simply splendid position.
Demographics show top ranking for both GNP and land which i'd rate as the most important long term indicators. My guess is you are allready in a dominating position, if not then you will be as soon as you get a chance to trade techs.

There isnt really space to REX on this type of map and i suspect you have amongst the highest no of cities and a great economy shape on top of that. However though ve REXed in a wise pace, you could push your GNP up by 10-15% just by settling cities on a different order. Intercontinental routes are worth 2 rather than one, that alone would/will net 2-2,5 beakers per city.
Harbors may also need to preceed granaries in many cases. And on this setup i'd suggest growing new cities to size 3-4 via their seafood and only then focus on for infrustructure.



Should you manage to get an GSc (GP pool dilluting always follows the SH - most always a poor wonder IMHO), try for bulbing philo after you trade in maths/alpha. The lib race will be based on getting GSc and if this isnt an occasion for pacificm idont know what is.
My guess is CoL is responsible for the 4th religion as the oracles late date suggest no heavy following of the religious tech path. (Oracle at 1000BC, we could have gotten it. ). Not that theology wont follow soon, still capturing the almost quaranteed coastal AP city should be much less tough than usual.

Anyway short focus optics and tech trading, long term focus astronomy via lib. We will get likely the best results by as early as possible galleons/berserks invasions on the most appealing land mass.

I second Refar's plea for conquest. Should be much less strain than land based maps.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think you can pull back your fogbusters; you are paying money to have them outside your borders and you have a nice little isthmus to defend if barbs come down.

I've kept the fogbusters up there to keep the barbs from settling there, but I think it might now be a good idea to pull the guerrilla archers back to encourage that to happen. Since, as KMad mentioned, I have the Swordsman quest, it may be worthwhile to build that force of Swordsmen and use them to take a couple of barb cities in the north or nearby islands. That may just earn me enough XPs for the HE, and it would help my power rating vis-a-vis the AI.

So I'll keep going on the Optics bee-line. I may build a few Triremes and sock away some gold to quickly upgrade them--it's a cheap upgrade and one of the fastest ways to get Caravels out and about. I should build a few more of the UBs anyways. My next city will definitely be the second one on the western island for the trade routes and the horses. After Optics, I like Cabert's tech plan, though I think CS is a higher priority than Theology because of the current importance of the capital.

 

[Mesousa]

After Optics, I like Cabert's tech plan, though I think CS is a higher priority than Theology because of the current importance of the capital.

Teching to Monotheism shouldn't take long though, and then you can just wait for your next Great Prophet(s) to lightbulp Theology (religion, AP) and then Paper. And well, as long as you haven't explored all that you can right now, it's hard to tell just how soon you need Optics.

 

[futurehermit]

Should not you be winning Conquest if you capitulated all ?

I thought so too, but it gave me domination. I was going to post a thread about it but then figured it wasn't that big of a deal.

 

[oyzar]

I've kept the fogbusters up there to keep the barbs from settling there, but I think it might now be a good idea to pull the guerrilla archers back to encourage that to happen. Since, as KMad mentioned, I have the Swordsman quest, it may be worthwhile to build that force of Swordsmen and use them to take a couple of barb cities in the north or nearby islands. That may just earn me enough XPs for the HE, and it would help my power rating vis-a-vis the AI.

So I'll keep going on the Optics bee-line. I may build a few Triremes and sock away some gold to quickly upgrade them--it's a cheap upgrade and one of the fastest ways to get Caravels out and about. I should build a few more of the UBs anyways. My next city will definitely be the second one on the western island for the trade routes and the horses. After Optics, I like Cabert's tech plan, though I think CS is a higher priority than Theology because of the current importance of the capital.

If you are going to complete the swordsmen quest make sure you are in hrule when you complete it since then you can get drill1 on all meele units, otherwise you'll only get city raider1 on all your swordsmen(so don't promote them before you complete it if you chose this option). Both options might turn out to be rather useless if your never going to fight with meele units though(upgraded berserks with drill one are better than berserkers without drill1 though)... Just use the swordsmen for happy garrison in your cities...

 

[ori]

I thought so too, but it gave me domination. I was going to post a thread about it but then figured it wasn't that big of a deal.

vassals do count into domination victory requirements so maybe you achieved both victories at the same time? the game has an order in which it checks victory and awards the first one that is returned as true so if you win twice on the same turn you still only get one of those and it is not random. It is well possible that it checks for domination before it checks for conquest...

 

[Scarredroman]

Having played thorugh the save, I'll keep this spoiler free. Bear in mind that if you take machinery, you'll enter the middle ages and the quest will be over. If you haven't built your force of swordsmen by that time - 6 turns, you will lose. You can always whip them and maybe libraries and granaries as well. Libraries, so that you can get the most out of of representation as you can. There's a less compelling case to whip trading posts and harbours. I like the idea of barracks in all cities.

If you can fit them in, explorers or spies for each of your caravels would be an idea.

The hut pop for metal casting meant you didn't need Oracle after all. You do seem a little light on workers.

There's a case to research Maths and Calendar and then the techs through to Civil Sevice and then Astronomy. There's definitely a case for switching to Caste, saving any more Great Prophets to trigger a Golden Age for that purpose and running as many scientists as you can in every city. With enough scientist specialists, you may sill run through Paper, Education and Liberalism before anyone else.

There is something about a dozen galleons loaded to the gunwales with screaming CR3 Berserkers descending on some poor unsuspecting Civ that just tickles me.

 

[ori]

There is something about a dozen galleons loaded to the gunwales with screaming CR3 Berserkers descending on some poor unsuspecting Civ that just tickles me.

Regarding the Swordsman quest:
when building those swords you should make up your mind beforehand if you want to have all swordsmen gain city raider 1 as the reward or if you want you melee units all gain drill - I'd go for the latter, just build those couple of swords, have them "trained" by some barbs to CR3 and have all those and all latter zerks also get drill 1 for some extra survivors during your raids
If you want to go for the CR though you should not promote them before the quest is won...

 

[Validator]

You've done a much better job taking advantage of what you've been given in this isolated start compared to the Mehmed game. First in GNP and production is a strong position at this point.

I don't like the idea of getting Astronomy via Liberalism's free tech. Beelining Optics was the right move and you've done a good job getting there so quickly. But while it will provide you with the opportunity to trade techs with other civs it doesn't solve your major problems associated with being isolated. You still need Astronomy to:

1. Get foreign trade routes.
2. Trade resources with other civs.
3. Have religions spread to your cities.
4. Use galleons to send settlers to claim any unsettled landmasses you find nearby.
5. Use galleons to send berserkers to liberate any nearby landmasses that have been settled by AI civs.

For these reasons I think you need to make getting Astronomy a higher priority than waiting for Liberalism. Once you've finished optics you can get to the point of researching Astronomy quickly. You'll only need Math->Calendar.

While Astronomy is an expensive tech it should be possible to use a GS to bulb about half of it, and possibly even use 2 GSs to bulb it entirely. According to the GS tech list kniteowl posted a couple of pages back the only other tech you would need to get out of the way for the Astronomy bulb would be Alphabet. You would need to avoid Meditation, CS and Theology to block Philosophy and Paper.

If you build NE in Nidaros ASAP it will produce 2 GPs in the next 35 or so turns if you continue to work the 2 scientists. Both will be highly likely to be GSs (about 70% for the first and 75% for the second). That's about a 50% chance of having both be GSs, which would mean getting Astronomy around 600 AD. Even if only one is a GS you can still research the remaining part of Astronomy in about 20 turns which gives you Astronomy around 800-900 AD, which is much earlier than you can get there via Liberalism.

You would then have a monopoly on Astronomy for a long time. It seems appropriate that the Vikings should be the only civ with the ability to travel the high seas for centuries. And if one of the goals of the ALC games is to play each according to the leaders strengths it seems this is the perfect opportunity to prioritize Astronomy. How many times have you done the Liberalism beeline? (Actually you can still go for Liberalism after getting Astronomy in the near term.)

 

[Scarredroman]

In which case, Validator, you'd be sending out swordsmen in galleons to find barbarians to practice on ...

Talk about a far flung Viking Empire!

[Tokugawa wins the swordsman quest, chooses drill and his samurai later have ... it's frightening nightmare.]

 

[r_rolo1]

I like validator's idea, it is quite a gamble.... but has a big reward if sucessful ( observatories + intercontinetal trade routes + galleons + circumnavigation bonus + intercontinetal action ). Even bubling roughly half of Astro and self research the rest would not be a bad idea...

 

[Refar]

As you guys are talking about Astronomy Gambles....

Astronomy is Pop-Able from Goody Huts. Soe perhaps after Reserching the Prereq's some galleys could go look if there are Goody-huts left on the Islands nearbye

 

[Terrance888]

Wooow.... Go Sis!

 

[iamnleth]

Can someone fill me in on why Birka isn't 1E of its current position? Simply to take advantage of the +1 production in the city tile and to gain more land tiles?

Spoiler :

Looks like the main contenders will be Mehmed and Hannibal... wow, Germany is going to be such an easy target.

EDIT: And does anyone else think that Sisiutil's position looks a bit similar to the British Isles? I mean, look... Ireland and Cornwall are both there!

 

[triacontahedron]

AFAIK, you can only get to 10xp max on barbs (to 5xp on animals) which is not enough for HE (lvl 4 unit i believe).