ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Scarredroman]

Sury and Roosy don't know anyone else. They would be good practice for the swords/beserkers.

Unless Confucianism spreads to Nidaros and Uppsala, there's no benefit to being in Pacifism.

Having suggested that Sisiutil did not need to change from US, I looked at the tech tree. Sisiutil could pay to build the Trading Post and then switch to Rep. Then he can research Guilds-Gunpowder-Chemistry in around 20 turns. That could be further reduced if the Swordsmen are not upgraded and the science is run as high as it can.

Two galleons with 5 swords and a berserker ought to take the first Barb city. Galleon number 3 ought to take along a spy - assuming the caravels are out doing their scouting thing. The galleons should finish theor explorations in a manner that brings all the knowledge ofthe world back home with them and ready to receive their berserk cargo.

Drats. Looking at the map, the one-tile island has no fish. It's still a great place to use as a staging area, it just will grow very slowly.

The only ai currently able to expand is Mehmed. Privateers end that threat. They can keep Sury and Roosy from contacting those other civs.

Take Barb 1 with 2 boatloads
Barb 2 with 3
Barb 3 with 4
Barb 4 with 5

By which time , a few Privateers and Frigates should be on line. And good night Sury.

It would be extremely cruel to export Christianity to Izzy, wouldn't it?

 

[shyuhe]

I think I read that Sury has the ToA. That alone makes him a good target since you'll double the value of your trade routes. I don't know if it multiplies or if it adds a 100% multiplier but oversea trade routes with foreign civs are worth lots of coins - double that with a ToA and you can run through the renaissance era techs just on foreign trade alone. The ToA will help you reach chemistry/steel sooner, at which point you can mop up one or two of the power civs and cruise home with the game.

on executing the astronomy gamble.

 

[absimiliard]

It would be extremely cruel to export Christianity to Izzy, wouldn't it?

Oh, I so LOVE this idea.

I know I was advocating simple, and just doing the berserker rush.

But the sheer maliciousness of this idea appeals so strongly to the Evil Overlord (tm) in me that I'm forced to do some begging.

*gets down on his knees*

Please Sisiutl, please, please, please.

Pretty please, with sugar on top, and whipped cream, and even a cherry!

Please spare one caravel and a Christian Missionary to convert Izzy to Christianity.

I'm begging dude. Begging.

It won't cost much, just recall a caravel and build one missionary, and it's sooooooo EVIL. It would be glorious.

-abs

 

[Winston Hughes]

Some good points on why to attack Sury/why not to attack Hannibal have got me wavering a little, but I'm still inclined to think that the chance to knock out one of your biggest rivals (and to absorb his tastier cities) is too good to turn up.

You should be entering this first war from a position of unchallenged mastery of the seas, and using this against a weaker opponent looks like a bit of a waste to me. Will you still have such an advantage by the time you get around to tackling Carthage?

Also, Hannibal's lands will open up more options for the next war than Sury's would - from Carthage, everyone but Roosevelt is within easy reach.

Finally, Hannibal, a financial leader, has got the best cottageable land on the planet, with two long rivers and loads of grassland. For me, the fact that he's teching fast enough to be the best source of trades is a reason to take his lands for yourself (and thus to eliminate the possibility of him running away in the tech race while you make war elsewhere).

You've put yourself in a very strong position thus far by taking a bold approach. Carry that over into the warmongering phase, and show the world that the Vikings are as daring on the battlefield as they are on the ocean waves.

some suicide cats (which are better for collateral damage than trebs)

Attacking cities from the sea, Cats won't have a squirrel's chance in hell of surviving.

And, bearing in mind that we'll be limited to the number of units we can ship over, we can't afford to be too blasé about suiciding our siege weapons.

Trebs will have a much better chance of survival, and will be more likely to inflict some damage on the defending unit (and so could save us from suiciding another unit to dislodge it).

Edit:

@shyuhe

You do realise that the ToA only doubles the value of trade routes in its own city, don't you? It's still powerful, especially when combined with the GLh, but not quite so game-breaking as your post seems to imply.

 

[kniteowl]

Too much to read... :S...

I'll just say, why stop at a chemistry beeline with Liberalism? IF you can push it a little further, why not aim for Steel?

Cheap Drydocks combined with Vassalage or Theology means Navigation 2 Navy, Imagine Privateers with Nav2 :S...

Early Cannons, no one can Flank attack you for a LONG time.

Ironworks, is always a good thing lol.

Well It wouldn't be a bad thing IF you can pull it off lol.

 

[Andvare]

I'd say attack the weak, but only if you can get chemistry unchallenged right after that war, and get some frigates to support the amphibious assault on Hannibal. Dunno if Sury got thems fancy longbows, but if ain't, it's always fun to attack archers with highly promoted macemen.

Hannibal is the enemy, the others are just there for support. Get him down, and you have bagged the game for sure.

Roosevelt is a tempting target for vassalage. Good resources for which to give his master, and crappy land. Sury, not so much. Few resources, but decent land. More of an annex target, and as such requires more work.

I would probably go after Roosevelt ASAP, and make him a vassal, preferably before anyone meets him ('tis why I don't like to trade optics). Then, depending on the time, frigates for Hannibal and all, either go straight for Hanni, or take a detour around Sury. That ToA is awfully nice.

Nice work alround though. Pretty sure I wouldn't have done as well.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

I haven't read through all the replies since you last post Sisi but this would make a pretty good National Park city.

Either where the warrior is now or in a coastal location. Just try not to road any non-forested squares to increase the odds of forest spread when the forest preserves are built.

 

[rupertmonkey]

Just for fun, what if you combined the ideas of Winston Hughes and absimiliard? Switch into orgrel before the golden age ends. Spread Christianity to yourself and Izzy (So people are mad at you. So what? You're the Vikings.) Attack Hannibal and see how long it takes for Izzy's religious antagonism toward her patron to outweigh the plusses from the colony bonus. Maybe she'll switch over to your side midwar. A long shot, maybe even an impossibility (you'd get plusses for religion but additional minuses from the war). But it might be fun.

 

[Kietharr]

Don't concern yourself with Khmer or America. Their absolute weakness is the primary reason for ignoring them. Assess your real rivals (the bismark/hannibal/izzy islands and the mehmed/hammurabi islands) and take out the militarily weaker pair. Here is my strategy for domination:

Start your attack by hitting the weak Germans and forcing them into capulation rather than eliminating them. Rebuild any losses and take on hannibal and izzy. Take the good cities for yourself and give what you don't want to Bismark so he can be used for helping you research, cities he holds do not contribute to your overseas costs. Follow this up by smacking Khmer around with your now experienced troops to build more experience and get some more population so bismark dosn't get any funny ideas if he expands. Finally, attack the other main island set taking the weaker of the two there as your vassal and doing the same thing you did to hannibal, you take the choice cities and give your vassal the less productive ones. Finally, finish off the Americans at the time of your choosing, stuck in their freezing prison they'll have little chance at resistance even though your vassals will not be of any military aid.

 

[cabert]

you want those trade routes = you don't want closed borders nor do you want them to run mercantilism.
So what? you say?
1) no religion. Free religion is the way to go.
2) go for economics first, so you can trade it to all AIs as soon as they get banking (possibly before they switch to mercantilism). A great merchant is most welcome to upgrade a few berserkers to amphibious riflemen .

 

[Munch]

Don't concern yourself with Khmer or America. Their absolute weakness is the primary reason for ignoring them. Assess your real rivals (the bismark/hannibal/izzy islands and the mehmed/hammurabi islands) and take out the militarily weaker pair. Here is my strategy for domination:

Start your attack by hitting the weak Germans and forcing them into capulation rather than eliminating them. Rebuild any losses and take on hannibal and izzy. Take the good cities for yourself and give what you don't want to Bismark so he can be used for helping you research, cities he holds do not contribute to your overseas costs. Follow this up by smacking Khmer around with your now experienced troops to build more experience and get some more population so bismark dosn't get any funny ideas if he expands. Finally, attack the other main island set taking the weaker of the two there as your vassal and doing the same thing you did to hannibal, you take the choice cities and give your vassal the less productive ones. Finally, finish off the Americans at the time of your choosing, stuck in their freezing prison they'll have little chance at resistance even though your vassals will not be of any military aid.

I like this strategy. Particularly since vassalising the weaker/smaller of the civs on some island allows you to establish a base from which you can forget about problematic naval invasions.

Thing is, I imagine that the point of this game is to showcase the strengths of the Vikings at naval war by exploiting their traits, UU and UB. It seems that the best war to show off all 3 at once is to load up your 6th century galleons with berserkers and attack someone quite far away. At this stage in the game, you are the only one who can launch ocean-crossing invasions, and so are impossible to attack; exploit this, and wreak havoc!

In a sense, this is a similar situation to being the only one with an oil-powered navy. In one game recently I tried the strategy of being the only one with an oil navy and using it to wage a permanent global war of attrition, the sole aim of which is to deny all other civs the use of their own oil by pillaging it and later, by using fighters. Perhaps here, in this era of Viking homeland invulnerability, a world war of mass blockading and pillaging is an option? Remember war weariness only increases when units fight!

 

[DrJambo]

I have a feeling this game is already won and not only that, is going to be a rather unchallenging stroll to the victory...

Archipelago maps should clearly be played at a level higher than normal. Unlike the human, the AI doesn't appreciate the increasing importance of researching Optics and Astronomy on watery maps. The beeline to Astronomy masterstroke performed by Sisiutil only serves to emphasize this!

Whether aggAI would have made any difference, who knows, but it might have put up a better defence in its impending doom.

 

[Munch]

I have a feeling this game is already won and not only that, is going to be a rather unchallenging stroll to the victory...

Archipelago maps should clearly be played at a level higher than normal. Unlike the human, the AI doesn't appreciate the increasing importance of researching Optics and Astronomy on watery maps. The beeline to Astronomy masterstroke performed by Sisiutil only serves to emphasize this!

Whether aggAI would have made any difference, who knows, but it might have put up a better defence in its impending doom.

Hmm, perhaps - I don't play watery maps but I can see why the AI would just suffer. Speaking of which, why not do the opposite next time...

The next ALC game is Shaka, possibly with aggAI right? For a challenge I suggest a "Lakes" map! If you haven't tried one of these already it's a map which has no oceans, only lakes instead (for more fun with larger lakes choose "high sea level"). It's particularly tough from a military perspective as every civ is surrounded on all sides. It would be nice to see this kind of map being played as it makes the game harder without turning the difficulty up.

 

[popejubal]

it can. they're still colonies, but colony expenses are capped at twice the "distance from palace" cost of the maintenance of that city, and that cost, as you said, will go way down. i think maybe that's a change in 3.13.

I gave myself 4 Modern Armor and a Transport in Worldbuilder and rampaged my way through Suri's continent.

Colony expenses ranged from about 10 gold per turn to about 25 gold per turn (per city).

After my Great Engineer rushed Forbidden Palace, those colony expenses dropped to 0 in the Forbidden Palace city and double the (reduced) distance from palace cost for each city on that continent.

Conclusion: Forbidden Palace and Versailles are VERY useful on an Archapelago map where there are a couple of decent landmasses. I renew my suggestion that Sis save the first Great Engineer he pops to rush Versailles rather than squirrel it away (beaver it away?) for a corporation.


...and I didn't put any of this in a spoiler box, but I don't think it's much of a spoiler when I gave myself 4 modern armor, a few Great Artists and a Great Engineer. I also got the "plant cities on at least 10 different landmasses" quest which was very funny since I was already giving myself treats in Worldbuilder.

 

[kazapp]

It's particularly tough from a military perspective as every civ is surrounded on all sides.

You mean toroidal?

 

[Bobbalouie]

At first I was for attakcing Rooseveldt the weakest of the weak, give your troops something to cut their teeth on.... but I'm now kinda leaning towards attacking Bismark. wait, wha? Hear me out. Rosey and Surya are rather backwards. They'll have few buildings of use, and while attacking would give your CR3 zerks, there are other ways to go about it. When all said an done, they don't really get you much but land. You can wipe them up later in a turn or two when you've got rifles or infantry.

He has a nice little penisula there, smack dab in the middle of the 2 biggest threats. He's currently the number 2 in tech, after you. He only has 3 cities to take, so reasonably fast war. He can't have many troops with only 3 cities, so it's still a nice war for green berserkers Taking his cities would give you a beachhead to proceed in a land war vs. hannibal if you wanted to. Not to mention having a safe harbor right in the middle of where your privateers will be blockading. Oh, and a forbidden palace there would cover basically Hannibals and Hammurabi's lands.

Possibly he has some wonders or something, I don't check the savegames (temptation to use would builder too strong ) maybe someone could check that for me.

The only downside is that it would piss off Hannibal, and there's a chance he could be bribed into a war with you. Coursse, if that happens you can just get back on the galleons and heal for a few turns. Possibly even use his movement of troops to find a nice city sparsely defending and take it out. A possilbe way to prevent this is to give Hannibal Theocray and Philosophy, so Bismark has nothing ot bribe him with.

As for religion, I think you might aswell spread christianinty and get the theologoy bonus for troops. You aren't playing a diplo victory, and that +2 xp can make a huge difference. Who cares if they hate you, soon you'll be pillaging and burning their cities, not to mention they are a long ways away from being able to even threaten your core cities. Also, avoiding the major religions will prevent the unhappiness caused by warring against people of your own faith.

Oh, and since steel is after chemisty, might aswell get that to get drydocks.

 

[Thomas G.]

Delenda est Carthago.

-Marcus Porcius Cato The Elder

 

[Sempronio]

Awesome game so far congratulation Sis.
I also think that you should attack Carthage, true the Khmer are weaker but they'll be still weak later.
Hannibal instead might start to run away if left unchecked.
Beside a part from the best land and resources he's got a very juicy holy city to grab.
If you can spare some military, grabbing the 2 islands to the east would be nice to stop Hammurabi expansion.
Then the game should become a catwalk.

 

[absimiliard]

Or more fully . . . .

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

You won me over Thomas. I think the game circumstances argue mostly for attacking Freaky Yellow Martian Dude, though Bobbalouie makes a strong case for Bismark as target. But I'm such an ancient history geek that you've won me over.

Besides Hannibal is a leader at the moment, those who think we should cripple him now do have a point. Assuming we can take him early when he's weak maybe we should consider it. If we can't we'll just have to take him later anyway.

In the end, I am of the opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.

-abs
- (And Cato the Elder)

 

[Munch]

You mean toroidal?

No, I hate toroidal. The Lakes map type is just like any other map in the way it wraps around east to west and has impassable ice caps north and south. I suppose it's a bit like an Archipelago map but where land is turned to sea and sea is turned to land. Here's an example screenshot from Sirian's map guide (on this website under Civ4 -> reference)

I think it would be a good challenge in the next ALC game with Shaka and potentially Aggressive AI as well.