ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Morgawr]

I like the idea of playing Shaka on Lakes map but gotta remember that these maps tend to LOTS of land to settle so adding 2-3 more civs would be a good idea. This current game is still far from over though so maybe you should open up a pre-game thread for the Shaka game!

 

[patagonia]

Don't concern yourself with Khmer or America. Their absolute weakness is the primary reason for ignoring them. Assess your real rivals (the bismark/hannibal/izzy islands and the mehmed/hammurabi islands) and take out the militarily weaker pair. Here is my strategy for domination:

Start your attack by hitting the weak Germans and forcing them into capulation rather than eliminating them. Rebuild any losses and take on hannibal and izzy. Take the good cities for yourself and give what you don't want to Bismark so he can be used for helping you research, cities he holds do not contribute to your overseas costs.

This isn't a bad approach to take, but there are a couple of caveats.

It's much better to eradicate Bismark and create a friendly colony in his stead. You'll run into problems with rival culture initially, but it gives you an ally who'll definitely trade techs, and one that won't risk shaking off the yoke of your oppression if you gift them too much land/pop in a bid to keep costs down as the war machine rolls on through carthage/spain.

While you're subduing the Confucians, hopefully one of the Muslims will discover DR and build Versailles for you.

 

[Andvare]

Delenda est Carthago.

-Marcus Porcius Cato The Elder

Yes, without all the salt. That is so last millennium*, and quite frankly too melodramatic.





*:Yes, I know that Carthago fell in 156 BC, and that would make it three milleniums ago, and that the salting of the land never did happen, it just sounds better this way. BTW, I though it was Carthago delenda est, and not the other way around. Well, my latin is pretty much dead anyhoo.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^"Carthago delenda est" is the more correct form....

On topic: conquer bismark and make of it a colony... then rinse and repeat until you won ( will be easy with anphi rifles/grens and infantry )

 

[Scarredroman]

Hannibal is short of iron. We trade iron to him. Hannibal won't have any other source but us. He's giving us every resource we don't have. There is no reason for us to attack Carthage.

Bismark is the reason Hammy and Hanny don't go to war. When we want to cause them to fight, all we have to do is leave Bismark's cities in a pile of rubble and they'll spend centuries arguing over who should have the land.
By the time they pause for breath, they'll be the only non-Viking civs remaining.

 

[absimiliard]

Carthago delenda est is just the more common short form. Also, remember that latin as a language doesn't really care about word order so much. The fuller, and longer form, is Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse.

In this game I'm starting to think it's just as true for us as for Cato the Elder. Yes, Yellow Funky Martian would be easy to take, but he always will be. Roosevelt would be easy, but isn't worth it. Only Bismark and Hannibal are really close enough for the first attack, which will need follow on support which is best delivered from close by, so we can discount the farther opponents. As for Bismark, he's weaker than Hannibal and so less of a threat, besides which he's strong late game, not now. So I say target Hannibal or Bismark, from a logical viewpoint.

From an emotional viewpoint I have only this to say.

It still remains my firm opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.

-abs

 

[Porphyrius]

Hannibal appears the most convenient target, yes.

We 'd rather delay the muslim duo, not so much cause each one poses a problem but cause together along wit their AP could pose difficulties for an early(smaller) force.

I've never really thought that someAI being nice enough to give me all his resources is reason enough to spare him. So long as i can always happily claim them myself for no price.



Consider the invasion force still isnt the top priority, chemistry/MilSci/steel before the second attack could prove more efficient.
But please make the first one an authentic berserkers rush.

Think of all those poor sods never seting foot on Valhalla after all the early astronomy convinience.

PS: Izzy being a vassal and all should have more an effect than religion, still a stylish suggestion.

 

[reknaw]

I would take all but one of Bismarks cities, force Capitilation, then "Liberate" his cities back to him. He is small enough that gifting the cities back won't tip him over the land or population limit on vassals, and this way you get a colony on Hannibal's island that won't be under severe cultural pressure. Besides which, Bismark is already Pleased with Sisi, and if you take him out in one swift war you should only get a single negative "You declared war on us!", which will be offset by the positive "You liberated our cities." I wouldn't be surprised if he reached Friendly before long due to "Mutual military struggles."

Also you should note that Hannibal has settled on an island south of his main continent that has Iron on it. It's in Ice and Tundra so it isnt an appealing city site, but it's only a matter of time before he hooks it up and cancels your rather lucrative trade (3 health recources, 2 happy recources, and 7gpt for one stategic recource is incredible, imo).

 

[KMadCandy]

if you do go for Roos next, i'd cancel the ivory trade ASAP (10 turns). he has no horses, and Surey has no spares to trade even if they become pals. if Roos can't make mounted troops at all, you can bring more zerkers and save the bother of making/transporting more spears/pikes. you'd lose 1 and 4 gpt, not a problem (your sickest city is 5 over health cap while you have the iron trade going).

but I'm now kinda leaning towards attacking Bismark.
...
Possibly he has some wonders or something

Bis has Statue of Zeus. F9 doesn't show where it is, but you can see it in Berlin if you zoom in on the city. he also has Angkor Wat, i don't see it on the map but it's not a warmonger wonder so big whoop.

Also you should note that Hannibal has settled on an island south of his main continent that has Iron on it. It's in Ice and Tundra so it isnt an appealing city site, but it's only a matter of time before he hooks it up and cancels your rather lucrative trade (3 health recources, 2 happy recources, and 7gpt for one stategic recource is incredible, imo).

hannibal will have access to copper and iron on that island, and horses on the island next to it, once horse city gets a border pop. but when we get privateers that map setup is perfect for us and hell for him. we can use blockades to deny his mainland cities access to all of his strategic resources using just a few privateers, even if we're at peace with the guy. seriously, 2 or 3 privs to blockade plus whatever backup we decide they need. and we can keep denying him access even after he gets astronomy, because trading by ocean instead of coast wouldn't save him while we're denying him at the source. he'd need astro + chem for frigates to be able to stop us. yarrrrrr.

isabella has one source of iron. i have no idea whether he'd demand it off his vassal if we stop our trade and he can't actually use his own, but the option is there. hmmz, i don't know whether he'd cancel our iron trade once he thinks he has his own, even if he can't use it due to perma-blockade?

 

[CivCorpse]

he also has Angkor Wat, i don't see it on the map but it's not a warmonger wonder so big whoop.

All wonders are a big whoop. You suffer -4 diplomatic points with me lil miss diplomatic genius. Ha, how ya like that. OK, gotta go...there is a privateer from an unknown nation blockading me...and the crew is all feline.

 

[CivCorpse]

Hannibal is short of iron. We trade iron to him. Hannibal won't have any other source but us. He's giving us every resource we don't have. There is no reason for us to attack Carthage.

Bismark is the reason Hammy and Hanny don't go to war. When we want to cause them to fight, all we have to do is leave Bismark's cities in a pile of rubble and they'll spend centuries arguing over who should have the land.
By the time they pause for breath, they'll be the only non-Viking civs remaining.

No iron means no crossbows or knights...why don't we go get those resources the good ole fashioned viking way? The point of zerkers is to attack cities, not upgrade them before a shot is fired in anger. Unless we are delaying to build wonders.

 

[Bobbalouie]

Since Bismark has the statue of zeus, i'm even more inclied to take him first. Dunno if it would too expensive to keep it yourself, but a colony will do. Get that sucker, and you can be in a crippling perma war , skippiing privateers entirely and go with just frigates. Take out enough of their caravels for war weariness. (maybe som privateers for the +1 sight). Denying them health, food and causing increasing inhappines should cripple any civ before you even try to conquer.

eta - thx KMadCandy for checking for me

 

[DrJambo]

Get the Khymer dude for all the reasons someone earlier said (Validator?). He's got the Temple of Artemis, which would go brilliantly with your trade routes. Plus, he's relatively close-by and isolated.

 

[cabert]

Get the Khymer dude for all the reasons someone earlier said (Validator?). He's got the Temple of Artemis, which would go brilliantly with your trade routes. Plus, he's relatively close-by and isolated.

agreed.
You don't want to take the ToA when it's obsolete, do you?

 

[CivSetä]

And it won't take too long, CR3 berks can still deal with Hannibal later.

 

[Scarredroman]

Why should we go after Hannibal now? Why wait until he's hooked up his own iron and ended our deal?

Because it will take the attacks on the barbarians, Sury and Roosevelt to build up the galleons, privateers, frigates and berserkers to the numbers necessary to fight Hannibal, Bismarck and Izzy - and have produced enough garrison troops tohold the cities that are not being razed to the ground.

The way Sisiutil eyed one of the carthaginian cities, as the perfect spot for his ironworks, means those of you who want to take out Hannibal sooner rather than later will get your wish.

There's just something satisfying about Carthage being the last civ standing, swarmed all around by privateers, fighters on carriers standing by, bombers beginning to taxi on runways, destroyers and battleships bringing guns to bear, transports loaded with troops and Ragnar says to Hannibal

"Hannibal, your existence offends me, prepare to die!"

 

[kazapp]

No, I hate toroidal.

Okay, no problem. I just asked because you said "every civ is surrounded on all sides" which isn't true if there's a corner (on flat) or a north/south side (cylinder) to hide by.

Anyway, I just went ahead and checked. Lakes on toroidal for some reason actually create a canal of water exactly where north would meet south, so it's isn't truly wrapping* in the sense that it doesn't matter where on the map you settle, thus kind of defeating the whole purpose of having a toroidal map in the first place.

(*it still wraps in the fundamental sense that if you build a boat in a coastal city just south of this "canal" and ferry your troops across they will "leave" the map by its northern "edge" and "reappear" at its southern edge).

 

[absimiliard]

I don't think getting the ToA is going to be very useful. Sure it's a free priest, and some GP points, but the trade multiplier only effects the city it's in doesn't it? So sure, getting Freaky Yellow Martian Dude might net Sisi some beneficial income from the ToA, but it won't be transformative like getting Astronomy was.

I actually support some beating on the barbarian cities for free XP while building the Berserkers and Galleons Sisi will need for his assault on an AI. I also like that it'll put the brakes on the Islamic expansion along that island chain.

But I think eating Sury or Rosy will just take too long. By the time Sisiutl is done with them the berserkers will be obsolete. That's why I think he should take Bismark or Hannibal first. And I think Hannibal's the bigger threat, and the tastier meal to boot.

Ceterum censeo, Carthaginem delendam esse.

-abs

 

[ratrangerm]

Stopping by quickly to check threads before I have to get back to work...

I forgot about Sis choosing the "choose religion" option, so I stand corrected.

As for who to attack first, I agree that Khmer and Roosevelt should come first for the following reasons:

1. They are closer, so the wars can move along faster.
2. They are good for getting the Berzerkers experience without losing too many in battles.
3. There are some good resources available and there are some useful wonders as well.
4. When those two are taken out, Sis' power will increase and make him a bigger threat against Hannibal or whoever it is he decides to take out next.
5. Hannibal has friends who could be easly bribed into joining a war against Sis.
6. Besides, after Roos and Khmer, the next guys I'd be thinking of taking out are either Hammurabi or Mehmed.

 

[iamnleth]

I'm not too familiar with war weariness mechanics, but could you not capture Berlin and use the Statue of Zeus against your enemies?

Also, note Mehmed's crappy placement of Samsun. *sigh*