Sis, don't use your GG on a knight to be the M.A.S.H. Unit, build n explorer and promote him to medicI. A knight might end up defending and you could lose your doctor. I would also reccomend dropping into Theo for 5 turns so he has 7 points when you build him. That makes him level6 for West Point. Then before the GA expires switch back to FR. The heathen bonus will only be in effect for 5 turns. Not long enough for it to build up.
ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Airefuego
King
Awesome round! 
I would raze Cologne even though it's a holy city. Keeping it and fighting off Hamm's culture will be more time and effort than it is worth, and Judaism is minor in this game. The game will be over before you get any real benefit from owning the holy city. Plus the only person running Judaism as state religion is Izzy, who is Hannibal's vassal, so who cares what she thinks!
Berlin looks like the globe/draft city to me, great idea! It has significantly more food than Munich (even without a harbour) and the iron and the hill mines means it should actually be able to build Globe before the next millenium!
I'd keep Hamburg assuming some buildings survive, but I don't care too much either way... it would benefit from moving a square, but as you say, probably not worth the effort. And I'd eliminate Bizzy, not vassalize him.
Finally, I would say Hannibal is still the next target, simply because he is the Leader, and needs to be taken down. And your troops are right there at his gate.
I would raze Cologne even though it's a holy city. Keeping it and fighting off Hamm's culture will be more time and effort than it is worth, and Judaism is minor in this game. The game will be over before you get any real benefit from owning the holy city. Plus the only person running Judaism as state religion is Izzy, who is Hannibal's vassal, so who cares what she thinks!
Berlin looks like the globe/draft city to me, great idea! It has significantly more food than Munich (even without a harbour) and the iron and the hill mines means it should actually be able to build Globe before the next millenium!
I'd keep Hamburg assuming some buildings survive, but I don't care too much either way... it would benefit from moving a square, but as you say, probably not worth the effort. And I'd eliminate Bizzy, not vassalize him.
Finally, I would say Hannibal is still the next target, simply because he is the Leader, and needs to be taken down. And your troops are right there at his gate.
Bobbalouie
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2006
- Messages
- 80
Keep the cities you win. Kill Bismark. Build the Forbidden Palace over there, and it's in the middle of alot of possible conquests. Then you don't have to deal with German culture problems.
Hannibals rifles aren't going to be much of a problem against city attack 2/3 grenadiers supported by cannons.
Hannibals rifles aren't going to be much of a problem against city attack 2/3 grenadiers supported by cannons.
Awesome round!
I would raze Cologne even though it's a holy city. Keeping it and fighting off Hamm's culture will be more time and effort than it is worth, and Judaism is minor in this game. The game will be over before you get any real benefit from owning the holy city. Plus the only person running Judaism as state religion is Izzy, who is Hannibal's vassal, so who cares what she thinks!
Berlin looks like the globe/draft city to me, great idea! It has significantly more food than Munich (even without a harbour) and the iron and the hill mines means it should actually be able to build Globe before the next millenium!
I'd keep Hamburg assuming some buildings survive, but I don't care too much either way... it would benefit from moving a square, but as you say, probably not worth the effort. And I'd eliminate Bizzy, not vassalize him.
Finally, I would say Hannibal is still the next target, simply because he is the Leader, and needs to be taken down. And your troops are right there at his gate.
Kmad can correct me if I am wrong. But razing a Holy City is a major diplomatic boo boo. And I think it is a hit to the happiness also. Or maybe just one of them. I think it is -5. I would take the city and gift it to either Hannibal or Izzy. They can build the shrine for you if it isn't there yet and you can reclaim it at your leisure. without paying the overseas City Maint.
Whether you raze it or not. The yearning for my mommy
will get to you. Especially with the loss of luxury resources when the war starts. And I am sure the second you make peace. hannibal will vassalize Bizzy. Then when you attack you get WW and homesicknessOkay, I will start by saying I have not read the whole thread, so if this was brought up I apologize! Don't Zerks start with amphibious (no penalty from crossing the river)? I guess you could have stationed some on the hill near the first german city and the trebs on the other side so they would not have the penalty for crossing the river. In the end I think it is 6 of one and half dozen of the other, since the results were great. But maybe something to think about.
Airefuego
King
Some clarification on the holy city razing penalty thing would be good
I am aware there is a diplomatic negative, and my impression is that you only get the negative with Civs who are running that religion as State Religion, for that reason I say, who cares what Izzy thinks! But I confess I didn't double check on the extent of the penalty. Even if every Civ with some Jewish pop gives us a negative, we can afford it. It won't tip the Islamic guys over the edge, and they are the only ones we care about for now. Raze it!
PS Why would you gift it to Hannibal and Izzy? We are likely to attack them in short order.
Whether you raze it or not. The yearning for my mommy
That's why I said eliminate Bizzy completely. Problem solved.
I'd vassalize bismarck, and use the GG for mount rushmore in a not too distant future.
That's just the warmonger in me
.
And nationalism certainly is a good idea right now.
You can draft bersekerkers in all you cities, then switch back to vassalage. (or is it too late already? then stick with nationalism)
That's just the warmonger in me
.And nationalism certainly is a good idea right now.
You can draft bersekerkers in all you cities, then switch back to vassalage. (or is it too late already? then stick with nationalism)
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Awesome round.
I may sound like a broken record, but why do you need to change civics yet again. Don´t mind that it is for free, but you want to use the little gold you have by going US for 1-2 turns? That just doesn´t pay off imo.
Just stay on Vassalage and Representation and roll over the world.
I may sound like a broken record, but why do you need to change civics yet again. Don´t mind that it is for free, but you want to use the little gold you have by going US for 1-2 turns? That just doesn´t pay off imo.
Just stay on Vassalage and Representation and roll over the world.
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
I'm curious as to why you bothered attacking from the ships if it took multiple rounds to remove the defense. To me, it seems like the main purpose of amphibious units is for quick, lightening strikes, the waiting around on ships seems kind of counter-intuitive to me. It might have been better to drop them off on one of the hills surrounding the city and have the Trebs help with bombardment, which would have sped up the process and given them better odds when attacking.
Now, if that city had tons of siege weapons in it, than I totally understand your reasoning. I'm just curious.
Now, if that city had tons of siege weapons in it, than I totally understand your reasoning. I'm just curious.
Refar
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Messages
- 4,608
With your empire spread over multiple Landmasses you will probably end up running State Property to fight Colonial Expense. (You might even want to direct your research that way...). If planing/running SP you dont need to bother about Mining Inc. So the GE can make the Statue of Liberty
DutchJob
Prince
GE for SoL please.
and stop considering civic-changes! you don't only have wonderaddiction but 'must-change-civic' addiction as well.
your homeland is pretty, true.
and stop considering civic-changes! you don't only have wonderaddiction but 'must-change-civic' addiction as well.
your homeland is pretty, true.
Charou
Warlord
Nice round Sis. Isn't it confortable when you have total dominance on the seas?
Don't you need Hannibal or Izzy to have some culture in the city in order to gift it to one of them ?
Don't you need Hannibal or Izzy to have some culture in the city in order to gift it to one of them ?
This is my observation too.
I guess one of the more visible reasons why the AI is slightly handicapped on an archipelago map.
Of course, Riflemen doesn't help too much against a human: the designers dug a pit for themselves by designing the military units of the age the way they did. Pushing back Grenadiers a few techs doesn't change the fact it is still the premier AI-busting unit in the game...
Instead of rushing things in US, what about building Berzerkers and upgrading them to Grenadiers. This way, you'll get amphibious Grenadiers, perfect for taking on Hannibal. If you want to do this, you can't research Rifling yet, because that will make Berzerkers obsolete.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i haven't opened the save so i'll probably have way too much more to type later.
and it's only 4 population. that's great, that means the "get out of revolt you whiners, i need you to make some missionaries so i can build monasteries i needed yesterday!" period will be quick. i still don't whether you can put off SciM that long tho, since we don't even have troops there yet and we'd have to get the missionaries to useful cities after they're built.
i can't tell which holy city Cologne is (i think it's not a popular one). you get a negative modifier only with civs running that religion as their SR at the time. Cologne does have Islam. i would take Cologne, make some missionaries pronto to convert your real cities, then liberate it to Babylon. you'll definitely get the liberate to Babylon option, since it's right next door. that means you don't have to care about culture, pay maintenance, or defend it, and get a + with hamm at the same time.
and it's only 4 population. that's great, that means the "get out of revolt you whiners, i need you to make some missionaries so i can build monasteries i needed yesterday!" period will be quick. i still don't whether you can put off SciM that long tho, since we don't even have troops there yet and we'd have to get the missionaries to useful cities after they're built.
if he's your vassal, then you control all contested (you vs him that is, see below) tiles that are in your BFC after you get some certain %, i don't know what that is. but you definitely get a huge advantage as the master. remember how liz had almost no land tiles even tho she was going for a cultural victory in the second izzy game? it was because sury was her master, so he controlled the tiles even tho some were 80+% hers.
that's an odd situation. i think you're going to face some pretty serious culture pressure in Hamburg even with Bis gone. i can't check the (% german/% carthage) on those tiles, but that city next door is the one hannibal great-artist-bombed before we ever met him, the one that was #1 on the top 5 cities list with no wonders that had me so puzzled. it's still on the list, it's #3, and still no wonders. Kerkouane is how Bis got trapped in the corner. Bis has the full BFC but he's had culture infrastructure in place for years and years. we'll be starting from zero, and there will be carthaginian culture on some of the tiles in Hamburg's BFC. so i really that if you want that city to have its full cross, you'll want a way to get infra in place quick ... pop to whip, or more likely in your case US. in that case, keeping rather than razing is much better imo.
too late i think, we draft muskets after gunpowder don't we?
did you check the ToA city? it's almost always the best bet (unless it's your own city of course).
what i'd been wanting to do was "harass" hannibal not by slowing him down in tech, but cutting off his access to all of his strategic resources to make him much easier to conquer later. his only source of horses, copper, and iron are on those southern islands, and we can blockade them with just a few. we wouldn't need to blockade the mainland at all, it's the perfect set-up, he's totally screwed if nobody trades with him. but they might; his vassal has iron, and we're trading him jumbos, etc. and he can make rifles now which take no strategics anyway, so there may be no point at all.
Airefuego
King
I had to squint hard but I am pretty sure it's the jewish holy city. Only Izzy is running Judaism, and she is Hannibal's vassal so her opinion is largely irrelevant, right? It's his opinion that counts. So a -ve modified with her is not really a problem.
So on the basis that keeping Cologne costs us hammers and time, gifting it helps one of our future rivals, and razing us costs us basically nothing, I'd raze it.
Sisiutil,
you already know what I'm going to say:
found mining inc, spread aggressively.. use leveraged production to swamp carthage with units (preferably calvary if you can get there asap)
then rinse and repeat.. the world should fall in short order
NaZ
you already know what I'm going to say:
found mining inc, spread aggressively.. use leveraged production to swamp carthage with units (preferably calvary if you can get there asap)
then rinse and repeat.. the world should fall in short order
NaZ
carl corey
Deity
I don't know, corporations on an Archipelago? As has been said probably the best civic will be State Property which blocks corporation effects...
iamnleth
Warlord
I'd vassalize bismarck, and use the GG for mount rushmore in a not too distant future.
That's just the warmonger in me
And nationalism certainly is a good idea right now.
You can draft bersekerkers in all you cities, then switch back to vassalage. (or is it too late already? then stick with nationalism)
You need a GG to create Mount Rushmore? Is this a BTS Change that I missed?
What about the map type turns you off of corporations? Having to use sea units to spread them?
I've got to say that I'm seeing the same basic problem that occurred in the last ALC game: No sense of urgency. You have a military tech advantage and you're not doing what you need to do to take advantage of it. 41 turns in that round and you only managed to take 2 cities from the weakest AI. 
Why research Nationalism and Steel before Military Science? Wasn't building berserkers and upgrading to grenadiers one of the strategic options mentioned in the pre-game thread? Access to Ships-of-the-Line would also be helpful since they do 50% more bombard damage than frigates, and would be available to defend the fleet once an AI gets frigates.
Your invasion force seems rather small given the length of time building it. Too much infrastructure no doubt. And why waste hammers on Taj Mahal at this point?
The force composition seems off also. Why so many trebuchets? If the plan was to attack from ships then berserkers were the obvious way to go. You seem to have built up the same sort of force you would have used in a conventional war. You also didn't build enough frigates. It takes 13 frigate bombards to fully reduce defenses in a city with a castle. Maybe you should think about using spies to knock down the defenses in some cities and letting your frigates focus on bringing down defenses in the others.
Sorry if that seemed a bit harsh, but this lack of military focus seems to be a recurring issue in ALC games.
Anyway enough Sisiutil bashing. Moving forward:
I still think shooting for a Conquest victory is the best option.
Will Bismark capitulate at this point? If not, it may be possible to get him there by unloading some troops next to Hamburg. You can give him back the two cities you've captured if you don't want to keep them.
Hannibal needs to be dealt with ASAP. He's growing too powerful, and the longer you wait the harder it's going to get to take him out. If you do vassalize Bismark then Hannibal will undoubtedly send his troops at Bismark's cities, Hamburg in particular. This should leave the Carthaginian core cities in the south relatively poorly defended. A few boatloads of highly promoted Grenadiers should have a field day.
I would also be looking to vassalize Hannibal ASAP so that you can get on with dealing with Mehmed and Hammurabi.
You may want to switch to running merchants or lower the research slider to provide cash for berserker->grenadier upgrades.
The GE isn't as useful in this situation as normal. SoL is a pretty poor wonder on this map since it only provides its benefit to cities on the same continent. Mining Inc is a way off, and you don't have many of the resources that it needs. Maybe the best short term use would be to hurry Ironworks in Uppsala (?). That would give a nice boost to production.
And while on the subject of great people, what about using the GG for a Military Academy? Production boosts are always very helpful on this type of map.
Why research Nationalism and Steel before Military Science? Wasn't building berserkers and upgrading to grenadiers one of the strategic options mentioned in the pre-game thread? Access to Ships-of-the-Line would also be helpful since they do 50% more bombard damage than frigates, and would be available to defend the fleet once an AI gets frigates.
Your invasion force seems rather small given the length of time building it. Too much infrastructure no doubt. And why waste hammers on Taj Mahal at this point?
The force composition seems off also. Why so many trebuchets? If the plan was to attack from ships then berserkers were the obvious way to go. You seem to have built up the same sort of force you would have used in a conventional war. You also didn't build enough frigates. It takes 13 frigate bombards to fully reduce defenses in a city with a castle. Maybe you should think about using spies to knock down the defenses in some cities and letting your frigates focus on bringing down defenses in the others.
Sorry if that seemed a bit harsh, but this lack of military focus seems to be a recurring issue in ALC games.
Anyway enough Sisiutil bashing.
Moving forward:I still think shooting for a Conquest victory is the best option.
Will Bismark capitulate at this point? If not, it may be possible to get him there by unloading some troops next to Hamburg. You can give him back the two cities you've captured if you don't want to keep them.
Hannibal needs to be dealt with ASAP. He's growing too powerful, and the longer you wait the harder it's going to get to take him out. If you do vassalize Bismark then Hannibal will undoubtedly send his troops at Bismark's cities, Hamburg in particular. This should leave the Carthaginian core cities in the south relatively poorly defended. A few boatloads of highly promoted Grenadiers should have a field day.
I would also be looking to vassalize Hannibal ASAP so that you can get on with dealing with Mehmed and Hammurabi.
You may want to switch to running merchants or lower the research slider to provide cash for berserker->grenadier upgrades.
The GE isn't as useful in this situation as normal. SoL is a pretty poor wonder on this map since it only provides its benefit to cities on the same continent. Mining Inc is a way off, and you don't have many of the resources that it needs. Maybe the best short term use would be to hurry Ironworks in Uppsala (?). That would give a nice boost to production.
And while on the subject of great people, what about using the GG for a Military Academy? Production boosts are always very helpful on this type of map.
