IMHO both TGL and Mids are within reach. I've done it several times even on immortal. First, build settler and found second city to build some defenders, then TGL and mids right after it. With stone and some chopping it should be doable!
ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
carl corey
Deity
The problem isn't only if it is possible, it's what you'd trade for building both wonders. That's a lot of hammers and as was already said the Great lighthouse benefits might not be that big after all.
Hoplosternum
Warlord
Just wanted to speak up for the Great Lighthouse.
I recently took over a position in a MP game where my predecessor had built the Great Lighthouse. The position was isolated and all the other surviving players were on a single large continent. I found on taking over that I was stuck on a barren, happiness poor, island and had met no one
Not surprisingly I was a solid last 
Even the largely destroyed vassels were beating me 
Even isolated the Great Lighthouse still gave a few extra gold per turn in each city from the extra internal trade routes until Astronomy.
But a few turns later I started meeting the others. Then completed Astronomy. There is a long gap between Astronomy and the Great Lighthouse becoming obsolete (especially if you make it so) and the conversion of all the small internal routes to large intercontinental ones was a massive boost. It appeared to double my commerce overnight.
It won't help in the MP game of course but it did demonstrate to me that the Great Lighthouse gives huge benefits once you have some intercontinental trade and its not bad even before that.
It is also a pasive benefit. You don't have to focus on working certain tile types or running a particular economy type to get it. 90% of our cities are coastal and they will all benefit however Sisiutil plays.
The Great Lighthouse and then the Pyramids are the two I would go for. Stonehenge is nice but I would not bother now. The qusetion to answer is more whether to go for just one or two extra cities before any Wonder building? I just don't know Emperor well enough to say....
I recently took over a position in a MP game where my predecessor had built the Great Lighthouse. The position was isolated and all the other surviving players were on a single large continent. I found on taking over that I was stuck on a barren, happiness poor, island and had met no one
Not surprisingly I was a solid last Even the largely destroyed vassels were beating me Even isolated the Great Lighthouse still gave a few extra gold per turn in each city from the extra internal trade routes until Astronomy.
But a few turns later I started meeting the others. Then completed Astronomy. There is a long gap between Astronomy and the Great Lighthouse becoming obsolete (especially if you make it so) and the conversion of all the small internal routes to large intercontinental ones was a massive boost. It appeared to double my commerce overnight.
It won't help in the MP game of course but it did demonstrate to me that the Great Lighthouse gives huge benefits once you have some intercontinental trade and its not bad even before that.
It is also a pasive benefit. You don't have to focus on working certain tile types or running a particular economy type to get it. 90% of our cities are coastal and they will all benefit however Sisiutil plays.
The Great Lighthouse and then the Pyramids are the two I would go for. Stonehenge is nice but I would not bother now. The qusetion to answer is more whether to go for just one or two extra cities before any Wonder building? I just don't know Emperor well enough to say....
popejubal
Emperor
One thing worth considering is also the cash bonus for failing to complete a wonder. You won't lose all that many hammers for waiting a while to "finish" build a wonder since wonder hammers atrophy more slowly than unit hammers, etc., but you will get the bonus for Stone.
When you fail to build the wonder, that's a whole lot of gold that can be used to financially support an early Rex that comes before currency and courthouses (and before trade with neighbors if we really are completely isolated, more importantly).
Obviously, the Colossus would be very nice to have. Stonehenge would also be a real treat since it generates Great Prophet points to build a shrine if you go for Monotheism (an easy grab since you're going to get Masonry soon anyway). If you fail to build Stonehenge when you try, it's no big loss since that gold will finance your expansion. Same thing is true for Pyramids. Whenever you get around to building the 'Mids, if you're too late then you end up with a big wad of cash.
The only Wonder that I think you should try REALLY hard to grab is the Great Wall. Those spy points are going to be extremely important if you need to race ahead to Optics to find your neighbors. Backfilling that many techs will only be possible with tech stealing by then if your neighbors are trading with each other. Stonehenge might already be too late, but it's worth a shot since the cash will be almost as helpful as the wonder anyway.
The Colossus and the Great Lighthouse are both great wonders for this map, obviously, but without a resource to accelerate either of them (not sure for Colossus, but you obviously don't have a resource that will accelerate TGL), you may find that you can't actually get them... especially if you do build a couple of settlers early. If you do end up with Copper, then the Colossus becomes a no-brainer.
One final thought: Chicken Pizza. No, you don't want the wonder, but some AI is going to be dumb enough to build it eventually. If you find that you have a city with "spare" hammers that would go toward building units you don't yet feel like supporting, don't forget that you can invest in Chicken Pizza as a school fundraiser.
(When the High School where I teach had a fundraiser where people could buy actual, literal Chicken Pizza to help raise money for the school, I nearly busted a gut. The sad part was that one of my co-workers pressed me to explain what was so funny and she now thinks that I am even more bizzare than she did before.)
When you fail to build the wonder, that's a whole lot of gold that can be used to financially support an early Rex that comes before currency and courthouses (and before trade with neighbors if we really are completely isolated, more importantly).
Obviously, the Colossus would be very nice to have. Stonehenge would also be a real treat since it generates Great Prophet points to build a shrine if you go for Monotheism (an easy grab since you're going to get Masonry soon anyway). If you fail to build Stonehenge when you try, it's no big loss since that gold will finance your expansion. Same thing is true for Pyramids. Whenever you get around to building the 'Mids, if you're too late then you end up with a big wad of cash.
The only Wonder that I think you should try REALLY hard to grab is the Great Wall. Those spy points are going to be extremely important if you need to race ahead to Optics to find your neighbors. Backfilling that many techs will only be possible with tech stealing by then if your neighbors are trading with each other. Stonehenge might already be too late, but it's worth a shot since the cash will be almost as helpful as the wonder anyway.
The Colossus and the Great Lighthouse are both great wonders for this map, obviously, but without a resource to accelerate either of them (not sure for Colossus, but you obviously don't have a resource that will accelerate TGL), you may find that you can't actually get them... especially if you do build a couple of settlers early. If you do end up with Copper, then the Colossus becomes a no-brainer.
One final thought: Chicken Pizza. No, you don't want the wonder, but some AI is going to be dumb enough to build it eventually. If you find that you have a city with "spare" hammers that would go toward building units you don't yet feel like supporting, don't forget that you can invest in Chicken Pizza as a school fundraiser.
(When the High School where I teach had a fundraiser where people could buy actual, literal Chicken Pizza to help raise money for the school, I nearly busted a gut. The sad part was that one of my co-workers pressed me to explain what was so funny and she now thinks that I am even more bizzare than she did before.)
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
I agree with much of the gist: on an Archipelago the benefit is good even if you sacrifice little or nothing. But it does improve if
* you get OBs with more civs, making more of the best trade routes available to you
* you grow your cities large, because your city's trade routes are worth more if it's larger
To illustrate, Snaaty's threads in this forum about "trade economy" games (before BTS, where AIs built larger earlier cities, especially on higher difficulties), mentioned:
* bribing AIs to make peace with each other, just so that he could safely maintain trade routes with both
* building a lot of farms and whipping a lot of health and happy buildings
JackRules
incompertus vapulus
I just wanted to say 'Good luck, we're all counting on you'.
It seems like the question now is should we build TGLH or do the Oracle-MC-Colossus slingshot. Yes, TGLH gives some good benefit from trade routes between your own cities as well, and post-astronomy the benefit would be even better for a while. But I don't think the benefir would be bigger than the benefit of Colossus in this case. Of course, I haven't done any calculations and don't know how many sea tiles we should be working to get more out of Colossus than what we would get from TGLH. But I would consider Colossus better in this case. This is also because if we want TGLH, we need to start working on it before we can spit out our first settler, if we want to be sure we get the wonder. If we go for Oracle instead, we have plenty time to build that settler while researching Mysticism->Buddhism->Priesthood. With our good capitals good production capacity I think we would get the oracle almost for sure.
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
Heh all this debate about wonder-building now, this is why I opted for settling in place. Since that is not the case and Nidaros has four clams I think an SE is much more appealing at least initially, meaning the pyramids would be a nice boon. But as I said before, no hurries, you'll get it even after a settler a worker and some other stuff if not much later than that.
Gooblah
Heh...
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,282
Okay, a couple things:
Glad my contingency plan has been reviewed and redone.
Also, here's my plan for a tech tree:
Masonry is 3 turns to completion. This will enable the Stone as a resource. Without further ado, here's my plan, listed in order of priority
Agriculture: We need it to get to Writing, it allows Animal Husbandry, and it'll let a Worker start on that Rice up north if and when a Settler settles near that.
Bronze Working: If you are on an Archipelago, it may seem counter-intuitive, but metals are a necessary resource. They are, if they show up, the main source of production for the city they are near. Next, if a neighbor is found, an Axe-rush could work. On one of my first BTS Games, I was Zara Yaqob and teched to BW. I had 2!!! sources of copper in my capital's radius. I managed to conquer Babylon in a turn by whipping two axes and putting em on a exploring Galley. Then, I found Hammurabi, declared, and conquered. Granted, it was on Prince, but still...
Animal Husbandry: Enables Pastures, Writing, and Horses. That's all that needs to be said.
Writing: Duh.
Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood: Temple of Artemis, and Monuments. Plus, Code of Laws is close.
Code of Laws or Aesthetics, or whatever: up to you.
Glad my contingency plan has been reviewed and redone.
Also, here's my plan for a tech tree:
Masonry is 3 turns to completion. This will enable the Stone as a resource. Without further ado, here's my plan, listed in order of priority
Agriculture: We need it to get to Writing, it allows Animal Husbandry, and it'll let a Worker start on that Rice up north if and when a Settler settles near that.
Bronze Working: If you are on an Archipelago, it may seem counter-intuitive, but metals are a necessary resource. They are, if they show up, the main source of production for the city they are near. Next, if a neighbor is found, an Axe-rush could work. On one of my first BTS Games, I was Zara Yaqob and teched to BW. I had 2!!! sources of copper in my capital's radius. I managed to conquer Babylon in a turn by whipping two axes and putting em on a exploring Galley. Then, I found Hammurabi, declared, and conquered. Granted, it was on Prince, but still...
Animal Husbandry: Enables Pastures, Writing, and Horses. That's all that needs to be said.
Writing: Duh.
Mysticism-Polytheism-Priesthood: Temple of Artemis, and Monuments. Plus, Code of Laws is close.
Code of Laws or Aesthetics, or whatever: up to you.
Deadliest Catch
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
- Messages
- 6
I'm a noob in this civiv celebrity fest. But I would pursue TGLH even though we're isolated. It will be of benefit to our little civ, especially when intercontinental trade routes are established, but even more so because it will be important to deny the AI from having it. My two 
Ultimocrat
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 274
This is the "classic" formula I've seen for vanilla (tidied up a bit) for trade route commerce:
Dos anybody know exactly how harbors, intercontinental bonuses, and ToA figure into this? Are they outside of the main value, e.g.
[(1+harbor bonus)*[(1+F)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*0.5], [D*0.5]))/500]]
or are they another modifier like F?
[(1+F+harbor bonus)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*0.5], [D*0.5]))/500]
Dos anybody know exactly how harbors, intercontinental bonuses, and ToA figure into this? Are they outside of the main value, e.g.
[(1+harbor bonus)*[(1+F)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*0.5], [D*0.5]))/500]]
or are they another modifier like F?
[(1+F+harbor bonus)*(5*(Pop-10))+100+Cap)* (Minimum ([T*0.5], [D*0.5]))/500]
Ultimocrat
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 274
I looked back at a recent vanilla game of mine, where I played as Qin (fin., ind.), and had started on a non-isolated island (coast connection to continent with AI civs), with 8 cities, 6 coastal, in 1110 AD. Had gotten both GLH and Colossus, so I commerce-counted:
Colossus: +31 commerce from 28 water tiles -- note here that 3 tiles got +2 from the colossus due to the Financial trait -- and there are several ocean seafood tiles on Sis's map.
GLH: +27 commerce from the 12 trade routes, not as big as I remembered it being.
I definitely remembered GLH being the more important of the two, but I guess I was wrong!
Colossus: +31 commerce from 28 water tiles -- note here that 3 tiles got +2 from the colossus due to the Financial trait -- and there are several ocean seafood tiles on Sis's map.
GLH: +27 commerce from the 12 trade routes, not as big as I remembered it being.
I definitely remembered GLH being the more important of the two, but I guess I was wrong!
My plan is to do a Oracle-MC-Colossus sling, so Sailing for later, together with TGLH. The main thing to aim for is to get lotsa money, build lots of Zerks, upgrade to Rifles, then send them to victory with a bombarding fleet.
Settle on Stone and go:
Mining->BW->Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Mysticism->Meditation->Priesthood
2x Boat->Worker->2x Archer->Worker->Settler. Then Oracle, chopped. Settle on the inland plains hill N of Nidaros. Later I'd build the Pyramids on that city while I went Galley-> Archer-> Worker-> Settler on Capital and settle the island on the West. Forge and Colossus after that.
After that I settle Fishy wine with inland city. Plans for 5 cities on the main island good terrain (capital, inland, fishy wine, S Nidaros, S fishy), probably 2 spots at Tundra for the crabs and the fur and 2 on the West island.
Settle on Stone and go:
Mining->BW->Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Mysticism->Meditation->Priesthood
2x Boat->Worker->2x Archer->Worker->Settler. Then Oracle, chopped. Settle on the inland plains hill N of Nidaros. Later I'd build the Pyramids on that city while I went Galley-> Archer-> Worker-> Settler on Capital and settle the island on the West. Forge and Colossus after that.
After that I settle Fishy wine with inland city. Plans for 5 cities on the main island good terrain (capital, inland, fishy wine, S Nidaros, S fishy), probably 2 spots at Tundra for the crabs and the fur and 2 on the West island.
put it in spoiler tags at least
Ultimocrat
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 274
Yes, put in spoiler tags, hopefully before Sis reads. Shadow game stuff, even if it doesn't seem importent, can reveal info about what is or isn't possible.
Gooblah
Heh...
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,282
its okay...Off topic, Duende, but your loc. is Caracas? Cool. Did you vote for Chavez's proposals?
Anyways...
If Berserkers are upgraded to Riflemen, then I have an idea. Tie em to Frigates. Mass Galleons and Berserkers with CR promotions. Then, build a Caravel and use a GM obtained from Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse. Put it into the Caravel. Next, send it to the highest paying city, and use the money combined with several prior turns of 0% research to mass upgrade the Zerks into Riflemen. Then ship em with Frigates and Galleons to assault the guy who you just got the money from (assuming he;s the weakest)
Anyways...
If Berserkers are upgraded to Riflemen, then I have an idea. Tie em to Frigates. Mass Galleons and Berserkers with CR promotions. Then, build a Caravel and use a GM obtained from Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse. Put it into the Caravel. Next, send it to the highest paying city, and use the money combined with several prior turns of 0% research to mass upgrade the Zerks into Riflemen. Then ship em with Frigates and Galleons to assault the guy who you just got the money from (assuming he;s the weakest)
Lol, I voted against.
And yes, Colossus/TGLH and merchants with the extra food will most likely generate a GM, even with the Oracle around (by going Oracle first a GPriest will pop first, which is great). After you grab money techs and Machinery/Civil Service to start Zerk production, beeline Optics then Liberalism for Astro/Printing Press, which should get you close enough to get on the offensive against militarily backwards civs.
Scarredroman
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 274
Sisiutil is building a settler. Researching BW next means he can grab the copper. I would not have sent the worker to camp the elephants, since without wheel, roads can't be built to allow Ragnar the extra happiness. I'd have mined the other hill on the off chance it's goingto have copper - not that I think it will.
The way the techs are falling, the wonder order would be GLH, Pyramids, Oracle, Colossus. It would certainly help to have the Pyramids built in another city, with a forge built later, to generate a great engineer, free from other GP pollution. who can bulb machinery.
The way the techs are falling, the wonder order would be GLH, Pyramids, Oracle, Colossus. It would certainly help to have the Pyramids built in another city, with a forge built later, to generate a great engineer, free from other GP pollution. who can bulb machinery.
Weirdly enough, the Ivory will be connected without roads. Ummm, Oracle will most likely be gone after you build GLH in this difficulty. Not enough trees, and GLH requires the Trading Post to be built too. Not a risk I'd take.
Similar threads
