ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Kev
Hired Goon
My first thought here was to push early religions and see if the set-up allowed for a possible cultural victory. Obviously, the more religions the better with this, and I'd love to see a game where the culture victory was considered from the start - they always seem to fall into my lap unexpectedly in my own games.
Now, after reading more, I think I'm leaning toward the camp espousing a later religion (or two). We can still Shrine them and missionary spam - and probably this is easier to do with the mid/later religions in any case (though it does run the risk of having the religions based in less-than-optimal cities). Going after that early religion and making it work out well means a large investment in terms of tech path, builds (missionaries to be sure neighbors are friendly), and at times diplomacy as a close neighbor may found their own religion and use that one. I find in my own games that I do struggle more when going for the early religion - not even to say what happens if we try and fail to obtain one. We might even be able to take a Holy City by force.
In the end, though, the priest economy is very intriguing and with certain wonders I know can be very powerful. Sis has made remarks of late as to how hammers are so key - and the priest specialist can help in that regard even early when you have limited or no access to engineers. Works great with the Angkor Wat.
So I'm good with the worker techs followed by religious techs (though we do want temples and the UB up early for the specialists). Use the priests for bulbing Theo or run some scientists early to get Philo for later religions, use Theo for some trading and see if your same-religion neighbor might build the AP for you.
Now, after reading more, I think I'm leaning toward the camp espousing a later religion (or two). We can still Shrine them and missionary spam - and probably this is easier to do with the mid/later religions in any case (though it does run the risk of having the religions based in less-than-optimal cities). Going after that early religion and making it work out well means a large investment in terms of tech path, builds (missionaries to be sure neighbors are friendly), and at times diplomacy as a close neighbor may found their own religion and use that one. I find in my own games that I do struggle more when going for the early religion - not even to say what happens if we try and fail to obtain one. We might even be able to take a Holy City by force.
In the end, though, the priest economy is very intriguing and with certain wonders I know can be very powerful. Sis has made remarks of late as to how hammers are so key - and the priest specialist can help in that regard even early when you have limited or no access to engineers. Works great with the Angkor Wat.
So I'm good with the worker techs followed by religious techs (though we do want temples and the UB up early for the specialists). Use the priests for bulbing Theo or run some scientists early to get Philo for later religions, use Theo for some trading and see if your same-religion neighbor might build the AP for you.
Der Graf
Omnipresent Eye
Hmmm - settling in place seems to be consensus already. Agreed.
My 2
I'd say Agriculture>Hunting>(Archery, for being protective)>AH>Pottery.
So, no early religion here. But you should be able to grab one anyway via CoL and/or Theology with an early GProphet.
Then Mining>Bronze Working. It's not that important to reveal Copper early, but it should be fast enough to perhaps deny it to the AI
Afterwards try to bring your madrasas online (that'd be Masonry IIRC).
My 2
I'd say Agriculture>Hunting>(Archery, for being protective)>AH>Pottery.
So, no early religion here. But you should be able to grab one anyway via CoL and/or Theology with an early GProphet.
Then Mining>Bronze Working. It's not that important to reveal Copper early, but it should be fast enough to perhaps deny it to the AI
Afterwards try to bring your madrasas online (that'd be Masonry IIRC).
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
I agree with and appreciate the tips on a priest economy. But why do all of you seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Saladin's opening techs?
Mysticism.
The Wheel.
That means Agriculture before Pottery or Animal Husbandry unless I get really lucky with a hut.
r_rolo1
King of myself
How about this?
-Move the warrior
- Post
- Let people discuss another 4 pages about tech paths ( well , a novelty in ALCs..... ) while you take your wife to a expensive restaurant 
Sorry for the impatience, but I was the first to see this start (P.S I really don't understand why you didn't choosed the coastal start with 3 seafood ,lake , river and gems
) and the waiting is becoming hair raising
-Move the warrior
- Post
- Let people discuss another 4 pages about tech paths ( well , a novelty in ALCs.....
) while you take your wife to a expensive restaurant Sorry for the impatience, but I was the first to see this start (P.S I really don't understand why you didn't choosed the coastal start with 3 seafood ,lake , river and gems
) and the waiting is becoming hair raising 
vicawoo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2007
- Messages
- 3,226
So because Saladin starts with mysticism and can run 2 extra priests from a library, people are willing to ignore his traits, REXing, spiritual warring, and his UU? Priest economy means smaller empire high food, and you're probably better off being industrious to help with pyramids.
Ravellion
Prince
Your priorities should be cottages and a madrassa, IMO. Whether you use the madrassa for priests or scientists is for a later time to decide (do your neighbours have a religion already etc.).
Bandobras Took
Emperor
In that tech tree I don't see writing, but I'd definitely get Writing before shooting for a religion just so the Madrassas can get online. Madrassas are guaranteed; religions are not.
It would be very much in the spirit of a Saladin game to include the founding of an early religion so I say polytheism first followed by mining or agriculture depending on whether you want food first or hammers and are going a military route...
Monarchy is on the way to Feudalism, which is on the way to Guilds. Guilds being potentially a major military tech for us.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
As the perpetual archery advocate, I strongely suggest you get it withing the first 5 techs. He is protective you know.
So going for an early religion: poltheism/agriculture/AH/hunting/archery/pottery
No early religion: agriculture/AH/pottery/hunting/archery
Sal is VERY susceptible early on.
So going for an early religion: poltheism/agriculture/AH/hunting/archery/pottery
No early religion: agriculture/AH/pottery/hunting/archery
Sal is VERY susceptible early on.
Another vote for very early religions. Tech path something like Poly, Mas, Mono then writing via priesthood. Get some early warriors out to scout, no need for worker until you get some worker techs. Obviously with your luck popping huts I'm expecting you to pick up a few techs so perhaps an early worker will be needed 
.
Of course the other big advantage of early religions and priesthood are the cheap temples. Cheap happies are always good especially if there are no early happy resources available.
I would also try and build Stonehenge and the Oracle. Use the Oracle to bulb Theology. Settle most of your Great Prophets in the Capital.
Lastly it all depends on the surrounding terrain what the best opening moves will be so until then.
.Of course the other big advantage of early religions and priesthood are the cheap temples. Cheap happies are always good especially if there are no early happy resources available.
I would also try and build Stonehenge and the Oracle. Use the Oracle to bulb Theology. Settle most of your Great Prophets in the Capital.
Lastly it all depends on the surrounding terrain what the best opening moves will be so until then.
reknaw
the Hopeless
Given that this is a two continent hemispheres map, I think we can assume that on our island will be no more than three AIs, possibly only two (since hemispheres tends to try to split the players evenly onto the continents and 7 doesn't divide evenly by 2). That leaves a few interesting decisions that I look forward to seeing played out. For example, say there are only two AIs on your island, do you set them up as your triangle diplo buddies, or take them out early and own your continent? The second option is almost always my first reaction, but afterward you'll be left with no tech trading partners and probably a severe tech disadvantage to the other continent.
I know its very premature to discuss this stuff without even knowing how many neighbours we have, let alone who they are (for all we know your neighbours are Toku, Charlie, and Monty... now wouldn't THAT be fun), but I tend to think about this stuff when knowledge of the map type allows us to infer details of the game before the AI knows.
I know its very premature to discuss this stuff without even knowing how many neighbours we have, let alone who they are (for all we know your neighbours are Toku, Charlie, and Monty... now wouldn't THAT be fun), but I tend to think about this stuff when knowledge of the map type allows us to infer details of the game before the AI knows.
Bleys
Deity
I doubt a Theology Sling is possible with the Oracle on Emperor without forgoing some very important worker techs.
I favor no early religion, especially at the higher levels. I think its important to give the AIs every excuse possible to be at each others throats, and religion is one of the best. My vote is a Priest economy with our UB, and bulb Theology, and push for the AP, switching to a religion none of your neighbors have before its done (but one thats in the city building it). By then, you should have enough of a defensive set-up leveraging the PROT trait to ignore any negative diplomacy because of religious differences. Take whats around early when it spreads to maintain peace, but plan to shove it in their faces with the AP, and rack up some GGs when they suicide on your Walled LBs.
I love the Priest based SE. Its even very doable without the Mids, and you certainly dont need an early religion, in fact, as a few have already pointed out, taking one is likely to create an "AI Block" of the other. IF you go for an early religion, my advice is to get them both, and since I dont see a 3C tile, thats probably not very likely.
I had a game in the LHC, was only Monarch, but I got Hinduism. By the time I met the other AIs, I was in trouble because they were all Buddhists, and the ones who werent had been vassalized by the ones who were, which is even WORSE than just being "friendly". I replayed that game, and actually managed to get all 7 religions on Monarch, but I knew I was isolated, and India has much better starting techs than Arabia so it wasnt nearly as punishing. I also replayed it by not bothering with a religion until Confu, and that turned out to be the best of the 3, because the other AIs got Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism, and fought, a LOT, so there was minimal tech sharing, minimal friendliness, etc etc. Ever since, I have totally avoided either of the 3 early religions, period. Let the AIs have their Holy Wars, and be ready to pick up the pieces and hope for them to pop their own Prophets and build shrines for you until your ready to pounce.
I favor no early religion, especially at the higher levels. I think its important to give the AIs every excuse possible to be at each others throats, and religion is one of the best. My vote is a Priest economy with our UB, and bulb Theology, and push for the AP, switching to a religion none of your neighbors have before its done (but one thats in the city building it). By then, you should have enough of a defensive set-up leveraging the PROT trait to ignore any negative diplomacy because of religious differences. Take whats around early when it spreads to maintain peace, but plan to shove it in their faces with the AP, and rack up some GGs when they suicide on your Walled LBs.
I love the Priest based SE. Its even very doable without the Mids, and you certainly dont need an early religion, in fact, as a few have already pointed out, taking one is likely to create an "AI Block" of the other. IF you go for an early religion, my advice is to get them both, and since I dont see a 3C tile, thats probably not very likely.
I had a game in the LHC, was only Monarch, but I got Hinduism. By the time I met the other AIs, I was in trouble because they were all Buddhists, and the ones who werent had been vassalized by the ones who were, which is even WORSE than just being "friendly". I replayed that game, and actually managed to get all 7 religions on Monarch, but I knew I was isolated, and India has much better starting techs than Arabia so it wasnt nearly as punishing. I also replayed it by not bothering with a religion until Confu, and that turned out to be the best of the 3, because the other AIs got Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism, and fought, a LOT, so there was minimal tech sharing, minimal friendliness, etc etc. Ever since, I have totally avoided either of the 3 early religions, period. Let the AIs have their Holy Wars, and be ready to pick up the pieces and hope for them to pop their own Prophets and build shrines for you until your ready to pounce.
If you don't go for Judaism there is a decent chance that no religion will be present on the island, which would be even worse. CoL isn't as important a tech in this game, going for feudalism and up the asthetics lines is more important (running lots of priests/scientists means more benefit to using drama and/or HR for happy). That said, planning much beyond writing and Monotheism without seeing the land and how the other religions and AI play out is really not feasible. But, since one of the first 2 religons is unlikely planning for Monotheism and aborting if it is unnecessary seems to be a good idea.
Jet
No, no, please. Please.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,431
It would be reckless to do that right away. Agr -> Pottery and lay down a few riverside cottages, then we can talk expensive restaurants.
Bandobras Took
Emperor
I still favor Later religions -- save up some Great Prophets and get Divine Right after nabbing Monarchy. 
Do the 2 un-forested plains hills in the opening screen shot qualify as a "hilly production area"?
Thing is, the plains cow and a plains/forest can give a good number of hammers plus reveal horses; and bronze working really isn't needed immediately given the floodplains and deforested hills. Not considering the needs of subsequent cities mining just isn't important enough to place it before AH, and if you aren't going to get axes you really need archers (and ideally chariots), thus hunting to both open archery and discount AH (which is your alternate path).
I guess at that point it depends on whether we want to push on to Monotheism (are we considering this an early religion?) or head toward writing since we can leverage an AI founded religion on our continent.
Just remembered, if we do decide to skip the first 3, would it be difficult or unreasonable to grab Christianity at Theology? I keep thinking CoL is the next in line but Theology then toward Feudalism works very well with Saladin. I actually did this last time playing him but not at this difficulty.
