ALC Game #22 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Saladin

[patagonia]

Guilds is also reasonably outside the key techs of Code of Laws and Construction, and we still haven't touched Alphabet, or the slightly less useful, but requisite tech, Monarchy.

<snip>

Theology, assuming we're far enough along with the Apostolic Palace. Literacy, if it's researched and we're far enough along with the Great Library. Metal Casting, which I don't even want to think about because it's beaker intensive and offers so little.

I think the GLib is an unnecessary detour for Saladin, especially if you're pursuing the religious path. Aesthetics is a whole lot of beakers you could put to better use at that stage of the game.

As for alphabet, most BtS AI will get it at a fairly respectable date on the higher levels, so self-researching it early yourself doesn't have nearly the value it did in Warlords. The only real reason to have it now is to unlock spies, but unless you're running an EE you don't really need those until you're going to war in the middle ages or later, by which point it's easy to pick up in a trade or research yourself in a turn or two.

In terms of the guilds beeline that's been mentioned once or twice, my opinion is that it only really works with Justinian (since Cataphracts are essentially Cuirassiers a whole tech era early), and only then if you use caste system to pop a GM or two to mass upgrade stacks of pre-built HA. Unleashing 30-odd Cataphracts the turn after you discover guilds is truly overpowered; you'd get similar but less good results with Camel Archers, but from an ALC perspective the real loss is that to generate the GMs you end up wasting Saladin's UB.

Unless you're playing on too low a level, the AI cities will always be garrisoned with LBs by the time you get to knights, so it's being able to instantly field large quantities of them that really makes the difference.

 

[Scarredroman]

The actual tech path to take Feudalism from The Oracle is relatively simple; Mysticism - Meditation - Priesthood - Writing - Monarchy

If the ai prizes Feudalism that much, Saladin should be inundated with techs for it.

Other early techs to research are Hunting, Archery, Animal Husbandry, Agriculture, Pottery, Masonry, Mining and BW. Though not in that order.
Going for the Great Library takes in Aesthetics and Literature. The thought of Sisiutil building both the Pyramids and the She. Pa and having two complete branches of the civics tree to utilise the no anarchy civics changes is terrifying. There will be a lot of civics changes in this ALC.

We have already seen Sisiutil use crossbows, from Machinery, to great effect.
Settling the early great prophets, if all they'll do is give polytheism or monotheism seems the best plan. Founding a shrine is only worth it if the religion will be aggressively spread.

 

[Nares]

I think the GLib is an unnecessary detour for Saladin, especially if you're pursuing the religious path. Aesthetics is a whole lot of beakers you could put to better use at that stage of the game.

So Aesthetics was just shoved in between Alphabet and Literature? I don't have a copy of CIV, and even Civfanatics has been lax in updating various resources, including the tech trees. If that's the case with Aesthetics, then I agree, the Great Library would be a major deviation.

Unless you're playing on too low a level, the AI cities will always be garrisoned with LBs by the time you get to knights, so it's being able to instantly field large quantities of them that really makes the difference.

Really a shame. Due to the necessity of certain techs, it sounds like the game offers only a single viable tech path for high level gameplay, and only a few leaders possess a powerful unique building or unit as a result.

I had a good idea that's where this discussion would head. Oh well, guess CIV isn't for me. Something about my 1,000th Oracle-rushed Code of Laws doesn't sound appealing.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Aesthetics is parallel on the tech tree to alphabet, essentially it replaces alphabet as the pre-req for literature (alphabet not required). (Alphabet is still the prereq for maths though). They cost the same in beakers IIRC.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Really a shame. Due to the necessity of certain techs, it sounds like the game offers only a single viable tech path for high level gameplay, and only a few leaders possess a powerful unique building or unit as a result.

Not really. Even at the start, tech choices can be tough, with each offering bonuses for investing early. There are even two separate religion paths (to Philosphy and Divine Right, respectively). A person focusing on a specialist economy is going to value different techs than a person going with cottages.

Overall, a lot of the perceived problem is that most players only like to play the game a certain way.

 

[slaze]

Alphabet is still the prereq for maths though IIRC.

Not true, it combines to reduce Currency.

Which is not far off his prefered tech path. Currency is required to build grocers, which means, once again the tech path goes through the path, which, with Alphabet and Math, favor a shrined (and/or merchanted), spying, chopping empire. Among other thngs.

We're looking for the map to give us two things, a reason to rush to religion (otherwise we'll have to acquire it), and then any fur, ivory, silk, whale and/or grocer resources.

And we like flanking. man, we like flanking... man, we're good with our flanking

 

[desemondez]

A little off-topic, but Sisiutil what are the specs of your new computer? Just had to ask

 

[Sisiutil]

A little off-topic, but Sisiutil what are the specs of your new computer? Just had to ask

The new system is a Dell Dimension 9200C desktop PC. It has an Intel Core 2 Duo proc (4 MB L2 cache, 2.66 GHz), 4 GB RAM, a 320 GB hard disk, an ATI Radeon 256 MB X1300 Pro video card, and Windows Vista.

A couple of people have said the video card is underpowered, but I've pointed out that Civ IV is the only computer game I play and my old Radeon 128 MB 9600 card worked just fine with it.

 

[Bandobras Took]

4 MB RAM

Shouldn't that be 4 GB?

 

[d.a.oconnell]

Sis - that computer is solid. 4gb of RAM and the core duo are great. The videocard is very subpar, especially for today's norm, but you don't need a video card for civ... maybe civ V. Video cards are only needed if you want great frame rates in first person shooters, etc. But we civfanatics wouldn't want you to leave the civ forums for counter strike! I used to be a huge half life series fan, but after picking up civ 4 from a friend, I have never gone back! Such a great game with endless amount of learning and fun. As much as we put down the AI, the fact that there is diplomacy in a video game is amazing.

Get that computer and start this ALC! Lincoln is a great leader, but I agree that this would be the ultimate test on emperor before moving to immortal. Saladin is a weak leader for most human players, but if you leverage his traits and religious power correctly, this could be a great and very interesting ALC!

 

[Sisiutil]

Shouldn't that be 4 GB?

It says 4 GB. Sheesh, are you blind?


j/k. Fixed!

 

[popejubal]

I think the GLib is an unnecessary detour for Saladin, especially if you're pursuing the religious path. Aesthetics is a whole lot of beakers you could put to better use at that stage of the game.

You do pick up National and Heroic Epic at the same time, though. Both are exceptionally good wonders and both mesh well with Saladin's play.

I'm not advocating a rush to Great Library, mind you, but I've seen it built late in some games and it's worth keeping an eye out for an opportunity to snag the GLibrary if an opportunity presents itself.

Also, if the map gives us Marble, then it would be foolish not to build the Great Library even if we don't get it. Getting a +100% bonus on building gold is a nice freebie for the consolation prize.

Mehmed also seems well placed to put together an Obsolete style super city filled with Great Priests. That's a whole lot of gold and hammers flowing from one city and Wall Street in a holy city with that many Great Priests means 100% research no matter how much you build, conquor or expand. It won't be possible to start the settling as early as Obsolete does, but it's certainly viable in the mid-game.

Edit: Please don't forget to run Serfdom during most turns this game. A 50% bonus to worker speed is a great plus and the only downside to Serfdom is that it isn't one of the other civics. 5 turns in slavery will whip all the buildings and troops you need and then you can go back to Serfdom for a century or two. I expect to see civic changes at least every 10 turns in this game.

 

[cabert]

If I get to play saladin in a post-warlords (he was great for cultural in vanilla and that's what I used to check his box in the quattromaster challenge), I will go for a religious victory.
Bulbing theology with a great prophet is easy, when you can have 2 priests from a library...

protective is good to keep potentially agressive AIs at bay, and spiritual is great to give in to "change your civics now" or "change your religion now" demands = easier to get some friends.

 

[Nares]

Aesthetics is parallel on the tech tree to alphabet, essentially it replaces alphabet as the pre-req for literature (alphabet not required). (Alphabet is still the prereq for maths though). They cost the same in beakers IIRC.

So is that to say that Literacy requires one of either Alphabet or Aesthetics?

 

[Nares]

Overall, a lot of the perceived problem is that most players only like to play the game a certain way.

To an extent.

There's some flexibility, but there are a number of absolutely necessary techs that don't necessary allow for much digression.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

So is that to say that Literacy requires one of either Alphabet or Aesthetics?

Nope, literature requires aesthetics.

 

[Nares]

Nope, literature requires aesthetics.

Boo.

So it's either Oracle/CoL or Pyramids here?

I still don't vote for a religious race. You should be the first to discover Theology, Philosophy and Divine Right. You could even get Code of Laws first. Maybe if there's riverside Gold in the BFC.

Also, how would espionage work out here?

 

[Quotey]

So you have a nice new computer (will have)... would you consider oding a Large map ALC in the future? I understand it was discussed in the Shaka thread or the Bullpen (I showed support for it). I can't remember if everyone who actually looks at the save can do a large map. It'd be a chance to show off your amazing diplomacy, correct?

 

[Sisiutil]

So you have a nice new computer (will have)... would you consider oding a Large map ALC in the future? I understand it was discussed in the Shaka thread or the Bullpen (I showed support for it). I can't remember if everyone who actually looks at the save can do a large map. It'd be a chance to show off your amazing diplomacy, correct?

Tempting, but unlikely, as I don't like to exclude players from downloading and checking/shadowing the games if their systems can't handle the larger maps. I'll probably just mess around with those in my off-line games.

I was able to play with a reasonable amount of speed on "Large" maps on my old system; I may try out a "Huge" one just to see how the new box handles it...

 

[Sisiutil]

I just want to add that I'm going through serious Civ withdrawal. I've taken to reading over old ALC games just to try to get something equivalent to a fix. Pathetic, I know.

Lord above, I'm even getting a good night's sleep every night! When's the last time any of us did that?

Hurry up, Puralator!