ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[Sisiutil]

I would not be too worried about your economy. You have promoted troops (though it sounds like the better long-term choice of City Raider was not invested in) which should be put to use taking more cities...

Edit: Horseback Riding is not on the intelligent tech path, and I'm not sure how throwing beakers into it helps your game at all. The 3 techs for empire = Writing, Currency, and Code of Laws.

I would tend to agree on both points. I suppose I felt like experimenting a little, both with the Cover promotions and with tech paths. And with the slider at 0, I wasn't really focused on research at all. HBR was taking something like 500 turns for most of the round, until I started running scientists in the capital. But I will switch techs ASAP. The only question is whether I should burn through all that gold by running at 100% for a while or save it for the next war.

1. Tech fishing for trade; later currency, code of laws

I take it you mean Sailing, since I already have Fishing (popped it from a hut, remember?). As someone else pointed out, I'd have to remove that barb city and find Darius to have water-based trade routes to him. The first thing I'll be doing--and yes, I'm stunned I didn't notice it, but I was focused on the war--is build a road to connect me to Saladin. If only I'd done it before Christianity spread everywhere. D'OH! I may delay building roads from my cities to any new ones at first in the hopes that some of the other religions will spread to them.

To me, the big question is whether to attack Saladin now or wait. That will also dictate religions policy, though not techs; I agree, it would be wise to pursue Code of Laws and Currency now, possibly funded by that 700 gold I have in the bank.

 

[Sisiutil]

If you converted a lot of Saladin's cities to Christianity, would he convert? That would be nice leverage to use against Ragnar (and perhaps Darius), and it means that you would get extra gold from the shrine.

I doubt it; IIRC, the AI gets quite devoted to a religion it founded itself.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, some notes:

-First of all, Why HBR? Besides thepotential use as exchange chip, it is the worst tech you coul get now besides Poly ( I mean it: Sailing would give you trade routes with Sal atleast and lighthouses ( babylon would like one ), Meditation would give you monasteries , Masonry would give you acess to mids and walls, IW would give you iron, MC would give you forges, Aestetics has a loaf of wonders, Alpha would give you tech trade and research, Maths would give you boosted chops ). I think Sailing should be next researched tech.... lacking that, Maths.

-I checked the EP that the AI are putting on you ( clicked Enter )... all the AI except Ragnar ( 2 EP/turn ) are putting 1 EP/turn on you ATM. This may be fortuitious ( I think none of the known AI is the civ that got CoL first ), But I got the feeling that Sal knows someone else....

- There was only 1 GPP powered GP on the world until now: GS in 650 BC, that I bet that it came from that city with Henge and TGL and that probably got Philo ( that IMHO founded Judaism ). This means that Darius probably didn't made Oracle and GW in the same city ( that would be pretty unlikely, but it was doable if stone ). This means, besides the wonders are being pretty slow, that Darius has 3 decent prod cities ( capital withoth wonders, Oracle city and GW city ).... not good. besides that, he might get a GP soon, most likely a prophet, most likely used in a shrine

-About converting to christianity or not..... I'm divided in there. Sal is definitely in your path, but you are in no position to war him now. He seems to have some ideas of moving against you ( see the garrison in Kufah.... ) in spite of not being with hands full AFAIK. In spite of all history of S man backstabbing the friendly and pleased AI , I'm not sure if it is worth to even try with Sal ( especially without the possibility of getting his religion... a reason to take the barb city ASAP ). Remember that you're in the southern hemisphere and that Sal should have his backs on jungle..... that makes you the only way to expand until cleaning of the jungle.

-Nidaros having 10 pop shows 2 things: Ragnar has a lod of food in his capital and has not produced many settlers there and/or whipped. I would bet that he's on a small penisula.

-BTW get a chariot and explore ! Sal land need to be known

-To end, condolences for the soon-to-be-lost woodie warrior

 

[Polobo]

If you discover Darius' lands and have a trade-route with Saladin will, with sailing, a trade-route be established if Saladin has a trade-route (capability) with Darius? Basically, can you bypass the barbarian city by going through Saladin's land to get to a coast that is accessible to Darius?

 

[r_rolo1]

If there aren't any other barb cities in the way, yes.

 

[Snovvdog]

I am looking very forward to your next round, I'm in the exact same situation as you in my 2 games, an opponent rushed and finished off with an economy in shambles...

Really welcome the next round so I can learn how to restore my economy.


Nice job btw, why on earth didn't zara whip more defenders I'm wondering , they always whip like mad when I rush ai's, this is on a lower difficulty too.

 

[whakamole]

Nice job btw, why on earth didn't zara whip more defenders I'm wondering , they always whip like mad when I rush ai's, this is on a lower difficulty too.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Zara wasn't in slavery at the time of attack, so couldn't whip. I wonder if the AI is programmed to avoid anarchy downtime when on sudden and needed defense?

 

[Sisiutil]

I am looking very forward to your next round, I'm in the exact same situation as you in my 2 games, an opponent rushed and finished off with an economy in shambles...

Really welcome the next round so I can learn how to restore my economy.


Nice job btw, why on earth didn't zara whip more defenders I'm wondering , they always whip like mad when I rush ai's, this is on a lower difficulty too.

As was noted above, Zara had not changed civics to Slavery even though he must have possessed the Bronze Working tech. Go figure.

My plan for getting my economy & research back in order is to mostly cottage the three cities I took from Zara while also building/chopping/whipping libraries and running scientists where possible. The "advantage", if you will, of a low happiness cap this early in the game is that it's easy to justify running specialists in a cottage city as it may be crucial to containing growth and unhappiness. Later, as the happiness cap increases, I'll be looking to put those scientists back to work on cottages.

In addition, as others are urging, Currency and Code of Laws are now high-priority techs. I'll admit HBR was a bit of a careless choice. But I was worried about Saladin--still am--so the power & units it would provide seemed like a good idea to keep him at bay, and with me dialing down research to 0% for the war I honestly didn't think whatever I chose to research would matter much. Though as it turned out I put more research points into HBR than I expected, so chalk that up to my inexperience with this particular tactic. It strikes me as a very useful one, so I'll be looking to use it in the future, but I will ensure that my research points while at 0%--no matter how meagre--go towards a more worthwhile tech in the future.

There are a couple of possible tech paths I can follow. Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws is certainly the cheapest, fastest path to CoL, and not one I usually follow. The disadvantage is that it gives me no benefit for pursuing the other economic techs, Currency and Calendar, nor the other early "C" tech, Construction--I'd have to go the longer, more expensive route through Mathematics -> Currency -> Code of Laws for that. I may be able to get through those quicker than it seems at the moment by using up most of that gold I've accumulated while also running scientists once the libraries are built. I'm then in a good position to pursue Construction, Calendar, Aesthetics, and other desirable techs. While Meditation and Priesthood are cheap, that also makes them relatively easy to obtain from the AI, even as gifts. So I'm tempted to go the longer and more beneficial route. I would hope that by the time my gold starts to run out that I'll be in better shape, thanks to scientists and cottages, to turn off deficit researching.

 

[Polobo]

If you go via math you can use the research that you've accumulated in HBR and tech construction to get war elephants up an running fairly early. It also looks like you have quite a bit of land you can claim using settlers so why not expand your economy via additional cities with whipped/chopped libraries running 2 scientists each. Expand that way until you are break-even gold at 10% (hopefully you can get the shrine setup so each additional city provides TR commerce and +1 gold in addition to the 2 scientists). Sailing is key as you need trade routes - ideally overseas.

More cities == more population and defenders == more power; hopefully enough to keep Saladin in check.

Math helps here since it increases chop output 50% and currency will let you build wealth if necessary - just...one...more....city Once you get CoL and courthouses you will be able to drastically decrease your city maintenance (since # of cities and distance will both be high given the map layout). You would want to consider moving the palace possibly and, with CoL, you can get the Forbidden palace up. With your capital and barbarian cities food is in surplus so keeping up a stream of workers and settlers should be doable. The hard part will be generating enough defenders. However, given the Bowman's stats you will need fewer of them compared to accomplishing the same level of risk using plain archers.

 

[patagonia]

My plan for getting my economy & research back in order is to mostly cottage the three cities I took from Zara while also building/chopping/whipping libraries and running scientists where possible.

One final comment to advise that if you need now to get the economy back on track, work coast/lake tiles, not cottages since you get the pay-off immediately.

Long-term investment will pay off long-term, but if you've over-expanded now, you need a short-term benefit to dig yourself out of trouble! If you get currency/CoL quicker, you recover much quicker. In the absence of rivers/financial, don't forget that.

 

[Validator]

My plan for getting my economy & research back in order is...

I would take a different approach to an economic recovery plan. Your economy isn't weak because of lack of trade routes or high city maintenance. The problem is lack of population, and that's due to lack of . The best thing you can do short term to help your economy is raise the happy cap, and that means Monarchy. If you go to 100% research you would be able to finish Meditation->Priesthood->Monarchy in about 22 turns, which just happens to be how long your gold will last. Of course any economic improvement will shorten the research time, although increases in expenses will also decrease the number of turns before the gold runs out, but you should be able to get it done before research has to be turned down.

Once HR is in place your cities have enough food to grow quickly. Gondar can work as many as 17 cottages (eventually) and even Lalibela can work 10. So raising will lead to a much stronger economy faster than any other approach.

-wise you're in good shape, +8 from resources (w/ Granary), with one more coming from Lalibela's deer. So cities can reach the mid-teens before will become an issue. Even though it will hurt your economy you're going to have to continue to build military over the next round to avoid a major power drop, so you might as well put them to some use.

It won't be an issue if you decide to pursue Monarchy, but I disagree with one of your statements:

Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws is certainly the cheapest, fastest path to CoL, and not one I usually follow.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant to say, but if it is you might want to rethink this in the future. Because of the research mechanics, researching CoL without knowing Priesthood is very questionable strategy IMO. Because of the major cost difference between CoL and Meditation + Priesthood you should get back most of the s you put into the the cheap religious techs because of the extra 20% pre-req bonus you'll get. You might be thinking that you can get them for free at some point via trade, but that means having something to trade (which isn't guaranteed) plus it can have WFYABTA implications.


Another research issue is what to do with the GS due in Babylon in 17 turns. Settling or an Academy are viable options, although I don't see an obvious location. Currently the GS would bulb Math, but if you hold onto it until you research Math yourself Alphabet is next.

As for the GG, I would normally look to settle him in these circumstances, since having a Medic 3 chariot sitting around for 50 or 100 turns before your next war seems like a waste. It looks like Aksum and Babylon have similar potential (Babylon a little better short term, Aksum a little better long term). Since Babylon has much more food I would think it would be best to make Aksum your HE city (unless something better comes up), so I would settle the GG there. Of course that does raise the issue of whether it makes sense to cottage spam Aksum.

Regarding military matters, it seems that you've skimped on your barb defenses while taking out Zara. Gondar looks especially vulnerable at the moment. You're going to want to leave a significant military presence in the north in case Saladin gets any funny ideas, but don't forget the threat from the south and east. For exploring in barb spawning regions you might want to consider using an axe instead of a chariot. If a chariot ends its turn next to a barb spear or axe it will probably die. Although exploration will take longer, an exploring axe should have good odds against any barb it comes across (especially if you give it Shock).

Finally, I think you'll want to explore some more before deciding on city sites to settle, but I'll point out that the hill 3S2E of Babylon looks like an attractive spot. At pop 11 it can stagnate working the lake, 7 grassland cottages and 3 mined (or cottaged) grassland hills, with none of the tiles shared with other cities. It would miss out on the sheep, but they'll be available to feed a city along the coast to the south. But more exploration might reveal better options.

 

[Polobo]

Another research issue is what to do with the GS due in Babylon in 17 turns. Settling or an Academy are viable options, although I don't see an obvious location. Currently the GS would bulb Math, but if you hold onto it until you research Math yourself Alphabet is next.

As for the GG, I would normally look to settle him in these circumstances, since having a Medic 3 chariot sitting around for 50 or 100 turns before your next war seems like a waste.

For exploring in barb spawning regions you might want to consider using an axe instead of a chariot. If a chariot ends its turn next to a barb spear or axe it will probably die. Although exploration will take longer, an exploring axe should have good odds against any barb it comes across (especially if you give it Shock).

Basically math would help power a horizontal super-expansion whereas alphabet would more helpful if going vertical. Aside from the currency discount what techs do we think we would be able to trade if we had alphabet (with and for)?

I agree with the GG suggestion; Akkad has the added benefit of copper/ivory/pigs and sufficient irrigable grassland and multiple workshop plains in addition to some hills.

If we are going to use a 1-move unit to scout the UU, while having lesser stats, costs fewer hammers as well and should be able to hold up well against axes and spears. Since there is probably jungle to the north-east the 2-move will not help anyway whereas to the south there is probably less land to explore so risking a chariot or two to scout the polar region is probably worth it. Should they die then you will know what is down there and can send the appropriate reinforcements.

 

[CivCorpse]

As was noted above, Zara had not changed civics to Slavery even though he must have possessed the Bronze Working tech. Go figure.

My plan for getting my economy & research back in order is to mostly cottage the three cities I took from Zara while also building/chopping/whipping libraries and running scientists where possible. The "advantage", if you will, of a low happiness cap this early in the game is that it's easy to justify running specialists in a cottage city as it may be crucial to containing growth and unhappiness. Later, as the happiness cap increases, I'll be looking to put those scientists back to work on cottages.

In addition, as others are urging, Currency and Code of Laws are now high-priority techs. I'll admit HBR was a bit of a careless choice. But I was worried about Saladin--still am--so the power & units it would provide seemed like a good idea to keep him at bay, and with me dialing down research to 0% for the war I honestly didn't think whatever I chose to research would matter much. Though as it turned out I put more research points into HBR than I expected, so chalk that up to my inexperience with this particular tactic. It strikes me as a very useful one, so I'll be looking to use it in the future, but I will ensure that my research points while at 0%--no matter how meagre--go towards a more worthwhile tech in the future.

There are a couple of possible tech paths I can follow. Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws is certainly the cheapest, fastest path to CoL, and not one I usually follow. The disadvantage is that it gives me no benefit for pursuing the other economic techs, Currency and Calendar, nor the other early "C" tech, Construction--I'd have to go the longer, more expensive route through Mathematics -> Currency -> Code of Laws for that. I may be able to get through those quicker than it seems at the moment by using up most of that gold I've accumulated while also running scientists once the libraries are built. I'm then in a good position to pursue Construction, Calendar, Aesthetics, and other desirable techs. While Meditation and Priesthood are cheap, that also makes them relatively easy to obtain from the AI, even as gifts. So I'm tempted to go the longer and more beneficial route. I would hope that by the time my gold starts to run out that I'll be in better shape, thanks to scientists and cottages, to turn off deficit researching.

I am definately in the meditation->priesthood->CoL camp. There are a couple of reasons for this.
A. It is cheaper. And gets you on track faster. It is better to research more expensive techs when you have a more stable economy.
B.You can stay @100% research for about 20 turns. It will take 13 for Mathematics then 26 for currency, then you're broke with mathematics and a only 1/4 of mathematics researched. And nothing avalable to help keep you afloat. You can research meditation in 5 turns and priesthood in 5 more. Then 22 turns to CoL, mybe a little less with the monastaries boosting science and temples letting you work an additional commerce tile. I just don't think you have enough gold left to get to currency in time before you run out of loot. Also with meditation you can build buildings which are free to maintain.
D. You can't count on begging or trading for meditation and priesthood because noone knows alphabet yet, and they aren't happy enough with you to give you freebies. And what exactly were you going to trade them?
C.Meditation gives you monastaries to help research CoL. Priesthood gives you temples for +1 happiness so you can work an extra cottage per city or run a priest for gold. The priest also helps towards popping a GP for a shrine. And you can spam christian missionaries to saladin before he makes the eventual and usually permanent switch to theocracy. In the Lincoln ALC, you rushed HC first to get the shrines then didn't do anything with them all game. You need to spread Chistianity to saladin soon if you want the eventual gold from a shrine. Priesthood is also a prerequisite for Monarchy. The map seems short on luxury resources so HR will help a lot. A monastary and temple in akkad can help protect the northern edge of the BFC which are already 13% Arabian. Granted they are unirrigated plains but land is land. And once those go then the copper comes under pressure as well.
Aksum would be a good canidate for HE. Even at pop6 (ivory and temple) it can work 2plainshills, the marble and horses for 16base hammers. I would settle the GG there. With a barracks and the free combat1 you can have formation spears from the start. Sal seems to be building lots of mounted units and you know he has ivory for jumbos. I don't see any other city with the food to support mines and workshops. The 3 lake tiles weaken the city's production a bit, but I don't see a better canidate.
Take the barb coastal city asap. It will drag your economy a bit, but with CoL it can run 7 specialists. Post nationalism it is a good site for a draftatorium. Or it can be the mocha statues city, using the whip for units and letting the overflow go towards the statues. It can build naval units while it is drafting and regrowing. And hopefully Islam will spread to it.

Well played round but I think keeping the final city really hurt the economy more than the city is worth. It is deep enough in your own lands that it might have been safe from Sal's rex for a bit.

 

[slobberinbear]

Any chance of chopping out the Oracle for Code of Laws, or is it already gone? Sorry, didn't check the save.

At any rate, cheap courthouses and caste system (you have a few nice SE cities) may be needed to save your economic bacon at this point. I agree with Validator that vertical growth is really needed here, and if you can't get it from Sal's religion you'll have to get it from HR. Fortunately, Monarchy is also off the Priesthood branch of the tech tree, so you could research it while building the Oracle for CoL, assuming that is still an option.

 

[carl corey]

The Oracle is already gone.

 

[jerVL/kg]

I concur with switching to Meditation/Priesthood right away. Both techs will give you useful buildings -- Monasteries for science, Temples for happiness and a PRIEST to build that shrine!! After that, see where things stand.

Don't have much else to offer, since Immortal is well beyond my skill. Will be interesting to see how Sis pulls out of this one!

 

[csarmi]

Sisiutil, I think you were got too carried away by the war and thus were too sloppy with scouting as well (and other things which others alrdy mentioned). You had planty of time to send your first axemen around Zara (on the left side) and scout his land from the back. You'd probably have the whole continent(?) scouted by now, if you focused a little more on that. Which might, or might not matter - but you couldn't know.

Good news is you can still do it (and the north as well with open borders). I think you should do it asap.

 

[Pieman]

Charging into another war would be a bit reckless; prolly best to go after CoL and get those courthouses in your cities.

 

[carl corey]

You know, I'd rather go Alphabet (try to trade it for Iron Working at least) -> Currency -> trade stuff for Priesthood and prereqs -> Code of Laws. Going for Monarchy and bigger cities while we can't even sustain the current ones is inefficient. Math -> Construction & HBR for cats & elephants is good, but again, we have problems sustaining the current cities + army, getting even more of them will not be possible unless we improve our economy first. Another war with the current army is doomed: there will be higher cultural defenses, protective archers, other troops. No way to go to war right now.

About the Great General: a military instructor would be good to get those accuracy catapults since it doesn't look like we'll get Theology or Feudalism very soon, and I'd rather we fight a war when elephants and cats eventually come around.

 

[Peachrocks]

Yeah as Organised COL should have been a no brainer. I thought you were going for HBR for war elephants later because chances are you are going to use them to conquer the contienant, but I did forget that Hammy is org