ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[CivCorpse]

Settle in place, build units and buildings. Settle other cities, research techs up to future tech

 

[NcNikke]

Settle in place, build units and buildings. Settle other cities, research techs up to future tech

That's crazy talk. You're crazy!

BTW, when are you going to play the first round Sis?

 

[Snovvdog]

Snovvdog: Please, no spoilers in this thread, even in a spoiler tag. Start a separate, parallel thread if you wish to discuss your shadow game.

done, sorry I didn't know I wasn't allowed to, I haven't ''really'' included anything spoilerish in the spoiler, but anyways I'll create a parallel thread next time .

Hope to see round 1 soon .

 

[kazapp]

That's crazy talk. You're crazy!

My guess is CivCorpse has mastered the game to such an extent, that after the initial Warrior movement, "micromanagement" such as which units, buildings, and techs to focus on, has lost his interest...

 

[NcNikke]

My guess is CivCorpse has mastered the game to such an extent, that after the initial Warrior movement, "micromanagement" such as which units, buildings, and techs to focus on, has lost his interest...

Yes, he seems to mostly focus on trying to get people move the initial warrior 1NE.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Eh, I was just echoing NcNikke's idea for the tech path. Do I have to pay a fine now for not citing my source?

Moai Statues in Babylon may be iffy, but Colossus would be nice. It's such a cheap wonder that you often don't even need copper. Who knows, Sisiutil may not find any metal for a while (I'm unfamiliar with Tectonics). That's why Hammy has Bowmen.

 

[NcNikke]

Who knows, Sisiutil may not find any metal for a while (I'm unfamiliar with Tectonics).

I'm still consistently thinking that the blank grassland square has some sort of metal in it. Then, of course, after the first two turns "Forest has grown near Babylon".

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 1: 4000 BC to 3100 BC (36 Turns)

I wanted to start off by reassuring those of you who asked: yes, that's a freshwater lake next to the Settler.

As we'd pretty much agreed, I settled in place.

Nice--an additional clam tile that was not visible initially. This location is screaming GP farm, frankly, because based upon my (admittedly limited) experience sites for that are few and far between on a tectonics map.

I'd also moved the Warrior 1NE--my thinking being, if I'm settling in place, it's best to move the Warrior away from the Settler. Why waste a move revealing tiles the city's borders will reveal anyway?

Also as most of you recommended, I made the first build a Worker.

As I recall, the AI starts with a Worker on Immortal difficulty, so this makes a lot of sense not just because of Hammurabi's starting techs and the corn. Most of the game, if the Lincoln ALC is anything to go by, will be spent just trying to catch up to the AI.

I also started researching Mining, with a mind to landing Bronze Working ASAP.

Now, the sharp-eyed among you will have noticed that the capital's borders revealed a tribal village on a hill to the east. So the Warrior had to double back to it. And a good thing he did:

Woo-hoo, one of the techs on our shopping list! Nice, very nice. I kept with the Worker build nevertheless, but decided on a work boat as the second build.

The generous goody hut was all the more appreciated because I think it's the only one I'm going to find. I very quickly started meeting the neighbours, you see. In fact, if that hut had been any further away, this guy would have beat me to it:

And on the very same turn, once my Warrior moved, I met this guy:

Interesting parallel here--after the Saladin game, I can honestly say I HATE being next door to Zara. I'm really hoping to get a chance to rush him and his irritating culture ASAP.

So like I said, I think that will be it for goody huts, so I'm grateful it was a good one. But of course, in a way I asked for this when I loaded up a standard-sized map with a couple of extra civs.

I finished that first tech on turn 12:

And then it was on to Bronze Working.

Several turns that were mostly uneventful then went by. My Warrior mainly explored to the southeast and fended off two animal attacks, earning Woodsman I in the process. While he was injured he spent several turns being chased around the map by a lion, so I didn't get as much of the map explored as I would have liked to. Eventually my Worker appeared and I started on my next build:

Of course, the Worker began farming the corn right away. I planned to assign my second citizen to one of the plains hills so that the work boat would appear faster.

And I met another one of the neighbours:

As I recall, Aggressive leaders are programmed to be a little more agreeable with others with that trait, are they not? So it might be a little easier to get along with Ragnar than usual. That would be good if it's the case. Saladin and Zara are quite close by, so I expect problems and probably conflict with them. Ragnar is further away, so from a diplomatic perspective I think it makes sense to keep him friendly if possible. He's a formidable techer and can be a good trading partner, but as I recall you have to get him to Friendly before he'll trade techs.

Boy, the Immortal level AI sure does expand fast. Look at this:

Wow, it's only turn 29 and already Zara has two Archers and a Settler ready to go. I know he starts with an Archer or two on Immortal, but still. At least this settling stack was headed southwest rather than to the north. Why is that a good thing? Read on...

As I mentioned, once my second citizen appeared I assigned him to work one of the plains hills to accelerate the production of the work boat.

I'm a big believer that surviving on the higher levels depends on micro-management. I know I can be sloppy about that sometimes and I also miss out on certain tricks because I'm not much of a mathematician. But now that I'm playing on Immortal level, I'm beginning to see the light. I've tried playing Immortal off-line and I get my butt whupped but good without fail. So I realize I have to accept the fact that I need to pay a little more attention and pull a few tricks.

Like this next one.

My worker had farmed the corn, then spent a few turns building a road into the forest east of the corn (so he could get there to chop it a little faster later on). I suppose I could have built a road for the corn, but health is not a concern right now; I need to start chopping as soon as I can. Then the worker had a couple of turns "free". Bronze Working would finish in 2 turns, you see. It wasn't enough time for him to move into another tile and start and finish a road. But if I moved him onto a tile he was just going to sit there.

What to do?

I moved the worker into the forest 1W of the capital. Then, rather than have him cool his jets for a turn, I reassigned the tile assignments in the capital to get BW done on the next turn. That way, the Worker could start chopping immediately.

I kind of like how that worked out.

So is there copper around? Yes...

I can place a city 1SW of the copper that will claim it (without a border pop), the pigs, and the ivory. The catch is that I have to beat Zara to it. He has not switched to the Slavery civic as of yet, so I don't think he's finished BW. Still, that doesn't guarantee he won't settle up there soon. So I think when the work boat is done, I'll need to chop a Settler right away and get him over there.

So here's a look at the capital, with the citizens back to working their original tiles:

The worker is diligently chopping away and will be done in 5 turns. I'm thinking I'll stop him just short and switch to a road so that all the hammers from the chop go to the Settler, since the work boat is almost done and doesn't need the help. The work boat with move to the fish tile, since it has a higher food yield and will therefore also help get the Settler out faster. The additional commerce for research will be helpful, too.

Here's a look at the map as revealed thus far:

So you can clearly make out Ethiopian culture to my east, and if you look closely you can see the edge of the Arabian border to my northeast. Ragnar's Scout appeared from the east as well, so I'm hoping I have some room to my west that can be all mine if I get to it fast enough.

By the way, I should point out that every flat tile in the capital's fat cross can be irrigated without requiring Civil Service and chain irrigation--thanks to both the lake and that oasis to the north. Again, GP farm, me thinks.

I stopped here mainly because we need to discuss what to research next. I chose Pottery, thinking of getting cottages going ASAP. But on the other hand, where? Here I am going on about making Babylon a GP farm, so does it make sense to cottage those grassland tiles only to farm them over a little later on? The second city seems like an obvious one to me, but it's a fairly typical tectonics city--lots of plains tiles, not much terrain for cottages. The only land that looks halfway decent for cottaging is directly to my south, and I suspect, based on where his settling stack was heading, that Zara has beat me there.

So maybe Pottery isn't the best choice. Hunting might be better, since it's additionally justified by the ivory, as well as necessary to get to the UU. And having a Scout exploring would be nice--the Warrior's been kind of slow. Also, if I manage to snag that copper and want to rush Zara, Spears might be handy in case he has Chariots. And again, assuming I do manage to settle that copper site, Mysticism would be important in order to pop its border and Animal Husbandry will be needed for the pigs. So there's three techs there--Hunting, Mysticism, Animal Husbandry, and maybe Archery for the UU when they're done. In that order?

Now, we should also have a contingency plan if Zara beats me to that copper. If that happens, the early rush is out unless there's another source nearby in the fog (which there could be, there's a lot of fog left, especially to my west and north). But assuming I lose the only copper site available, I think that would make Hunting -> Archery all the more important. Perhaps I could rush Zara with Bowmen? I really don't like the guy.

We also need to discuss builds once the Settler is done. Another Worker next? Or a Scout (assuming I research Hunting in time)? A couple of Warriors to protect my cities? Another work boat? I need all those things, it's a question of what the best order will be.

Anyway, the saved game file is below, and I eagerly await your thoughts.

 

[d.a.oconnell]

Nice capital sis. Great GP farm and lots of trees for chopping... axemen? I absolutely hate Zara as an AI - he's usually always at the top of my games in rank. I would say that you need to eliminate him asap - possibly via a mix of whipping and chopping axemen once the copper is hooked up.

Good luck!

 

[Zanttu]

Axe rush seems like the best option to me. After the settler I'd go for a second worker. Use both workers to hook up copper asap. Build another workboat, then whip a barracks and start chopping/whipping axes. Research wise I'd go mysticism->hunting->AH->writing. Honestly, I don't see any need for bowmen if you rush with axemen.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Fishing seems a good idea given the starting location. It's a cheap tech, so maybe research that first while building the Worker and then build a Work Boat. Or the other way around, build a Work Boat after Fishing and then build a Worker. I'm not exactly sure which is more efficient to the last hammer, but I'd go with the former build queue. Either way, get Fishing early.

 

[r_rolo1]

A disagreement:

I'm a big believer that surviving on the higher levels depends on micro-management. I know I can be sloppy about that sometimes and I also miss out on certain tricks because I'm not much of a mathematician. But now that I'm playing on Immortal level, I'm beginning to see the light. I've tried playing Immortal off-line and I get my butt whupped but good without fail. So I realize I have to accept the fact that I need to pay a little more attention and pull a few tricks.

I think inteligent diplo is far more important than MMing. Not that MMing can't put you a level up alone.....

On game:

You have definitely to settle 1 SW of cooper, even if for blocking issues. You know how zara is pushy .

Land is as usual in tectonics ( gotta put some more moisture in there ) But you have some nearby grassy area. It will be hard to beat Zara to the southern, making it advisable to look north ( I don't expect much from there: you started right under the desert belt of the southern hemisphere... but it may have some seafood site ).....

Now the MM tip of the day : chop in 5 turns and WB in 6? ( I bet that you were planning to simply pre-chop, but..... ) .And chopping the hills would be probably more useful than a flat grassland .....

 

[Quotey]

As I recall, Aggressive leaders are programmed to be a little more agreeable with others with that trait, are they not? So it might be a little easier to get along with Ragnar than usual

Sorry, nope. There's a stack of Axes heading you're way right now, and Ragnar apologises for the delay.

Aggresive leaders (by that, I mean warmongerers, not ones with the trait) are nicer to each other. Up to +2 I think.

Oh, and instead of building a road into that forest I'd have built one toward the empty grassland tile hping it would have copper.

 

[slobberinbear]

Techs: I'm thinking Hunting, Mysticism, Archery, AH. Hunting is key for all the reasons you said, plus the bonus happy face from the elephants. Archery allows you to make bowmen for homeland defense to free up your Axes. I agree that you need a second worker for roads to city #2 and chopping.

This looks like a straightforward axe rush. May I humbly ask that you show us some of your whipping micromanagement, so that we may learn and critique?

I would also like a little discussion on your axe promotions. If Zara has no metal, and all you're facing are archers (and maybe chariots), how would you promote once you draw up to Aksum (phonetically pronounced, a very appropos city name )?

Lately I've been using the cover promotion (instead of CR) when the defender just has archers -- particularly for the first few "suicide axes." It's a measley 5% edge over CR, but every bit helps. Later, after the defenders are weak, I'll go with CR axes. Just curious as to your axe rush promos.

 

[Sisiutil]

Fishing seems a good idea given the starting location. It's a cheap tech, so maybe research that first while building the Worker and then build a Work Boat. Or the other way around, build a Work Boat after Fishing and then build a Worker. I'm not exactly sure which is more efficient to the last hammer, but I'd go with the former build queue. Either way, get Fishing early.

Uh, done. I got Fishing from a hut. Oh, you haven't read the update, have you?

Thanks for the MM tips, everyone, and yes, rolo, I'll keep the diplo in mind--it's what kept me alive in the Lincoln game. But I'm already thinking along those lines--remember what I said about getting Ragnar friendly?

Now, I wanted to ask--oyzar was bugging me recently about building workers and settlers when the food queue is half-empty, saying they should be built when it's nearly full. I don't get that. To my mind, when the food queue is nearly full, you let the city grow so you have 1 more citizen to work a tile and accelerate the worker or settler build. But apparently there's a whipping or chopping trick I'm missing out on here. Could anyone explain it?

 

[patagonia]

That's one crowded neighbourhood you're in.

Hopefully you can beat Zara to the spot 1SW of copper and get some axes going. An axe rush is definitely the best way of making something of this start and he's the best target (creative and not protective so you'll want to remove his annoying culture pressure). If he beats you to that spot, I think the best place for the settler in the short term is 2N of the sheep. It can borrow clams from the capital initially and has reasonable potential as a city. If you try to grab an alternative site between there and Saladin (to get wheat/Jumbos), you'll get swamped by their culture and struggle to make anything of the location.

========

From an MM perspective, you should finish the chop to get a warrior built in the turn between the WB finishing and Babylon growing to size 3. Then move the worker to one of the plains hills and chop the forest there. Eventually you want mines on these and by chopping now, you make use of the trees while still having others to work for 3 in the meantime.

In terms of tech, I'd be heading for writing. You're unlikely to be building or working any cottages/granaries soon, so I'd go there via hunting/AH. If you don't get the copper, you'll want to know if there are any horses around, so this route has that added benefit, plus it leaves you a tech away from the UU in the event that you need to fall back on it. You're already safe from barbs on 3 fronts though (sea, Zara and Saladin), so I doubt they'll cause you many problems. Hunting for a scout's pretty pointless as by the time he's done there'll be barb warriors and archers around, but you should grab it soon anyway for the techs it opens up (and discount on AH).

 

[r_rolo1]

About what oyzar said ( this time it was you that haven't read it all He explained it pretty well ) it a matter of whipping . As you need 2 more food for every pop level, if you are 4 food away of growing when you start the settler, if you do a 2 pop whip, you'll have the food bar full after the whip and the city will grow next turn. Saves some turns compared with growing the city to the next pop level and then whipping

About the game: 2 religions founded and only one in sight...... maybe you'll get another religious lovefest

 

[Validator]

The worker is diligently chopping away and will be done in 5 turns. I'm thinking I'll stop him just short and switch to a road so that all the hammers from the chop go to the Settler, since the work boat is almost done and doesn't need the help.

I don't think it really matters if the chop finishes on the last turn of the workboat build. All of the hammers will just go into overflow for the next build. If you were in the last turn of building a warrior/scout then some of the hammers would have been converted to gold because of the overflow limits. But workboats cost enough for that not to happen. Not a big deal, as it only really comes down to wasting a worker turn building a road instead of getting a one turn head start chopping the next forest.

By the way, I should point out that every flat tile in the capital's fat cross can be irrigated without requiring Civil Service and chain irrigation--thanks to both the lake and that oasis to the north.

Huh? Unless I'm missing something the 3 grassland tiles W of Babylon will need irrigation chaining.



It would be really nice to know where Zara has founded that second city. If it's in a position to claim the pig tile that would make a city settled SW of the copper pretty worthless long term. Still getting the copper might be well worth it. But it would mean the position of the third city would be critical.

Maybe it would be a good idea if you play another short round and stop when your settler is ready. In the Saladin #2 game you played a short first round and then settled your second and third cities in the middle of the second round without seeking advice based on exploration to that point. It seems like you're pretty badly squeezed here, so you'll likely need all the help you can get.

 

[Sisiutil]

Huh? Unless I'm missing something the 3 grassland tiles W of Babylon will need irrigation chaining.



It would be really nice to know where Zara has founded that second city. If it's in a position to claim the pig tile that would make a city settled SW of the copper pretty worthless long term. Still getting the copper might be well worth it. But it would mean the position of the third city would be critical.

Maybe it would be a good idea if you play another short round and stop when your settler is ready. In the Saladin #2 game you played a short first round and then settled your second and third cities in the middle of the second round without seeking advice based on exploration to that point. It seems like you're pretty badly squeezed here, so you'll likely need all the help you can get.

Good catch, and good advice. I'll do that. Sounds like I may need another Warrior soon to scout around Zara's territory as well as the stuff that's still fogged in.

 

[rupertmonkey]

Techs: I'm thinking Hunting, Mysticism, Archery, AH. Hunting is key for all the reasons you said, plus the bonus happy face from the elephants. Archery allows you to make bowmen for homeland defense to free up your Axes. I agree that you need a second worker for roads to city #2 and chopping.

I concur. But I'm really worried about where Zara's gonna plunk his second city. Even if he can't see the copper, he probably wants pigs and elephants. Send your warrior NW and hope for an alternate metal source.