ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[kazapp]

I like very much what I read when you already from the start plans to war against Zara. Do not wait as long as in that other game to take him out. As you know by now, his culture is extremely painful to be near while being relatively sof in the unit-building department.

I would like to discuss the strategy of settling directly on top of the Copper. There was this Axe Rush guide I read where someone strongly emphasized speed as the most important factor... (Perhaps you could show us how to utilize barbarians to raze worthless cities later on, when all of Ethiopia is yours. )

Also, I would research Hunting (now that I read it's needed for Bowmen): Even if you do get beat to the copper site (by Zara's second Settler? ) you should plan on burninating that city ASAP (and settle there yourself).

Just because your Bowmen can't take Zara's capital doesn't mean they can't take a secondary city (which likely will be defended by two Archers at most, with moderate to low cultural defenses). Allowing Zara to get hold of Axemen without having them yourself could prove disastrous.

We haven't seen the map, but if your prediction of a food-poor landscape turns out to be correct, you would be wise to focus on the south. It seems very bountiful to me. (Obviously military needs could come into conflict with this expansion direction)

Assuming Copper gets online (start building that road ASAP!) you don't have time for any (more) Settlers - you will have to do with those Zara builds for you.

Btw, you need more Workers to convert all your forests into Axemen as quickly as possible. Perhaps Zara's got some to spare...? (Hint, his Settlers become willing Workers for you )

A great read, as always!!

 

[kazapp]

With the AI so close wouldn't it have been better to try to steal a worker from Zara and position a warrior on a good defensive spot near his capital to stop his early expansion? The AI is very cowardly with attacking out of his capital and will likely just build archers but not attack until he has like 5 of them. He will also build workers and settlers but won't dare move them outside of his capital.

I absolutely hate having creative civs close by on higher difficulties.

This will likely prove challenging despite the good starting position.

Yes, you should consider at least DoWing Zara. This puts him into "at war" mode which should slow down his expansion.

Of course, if there is yet another civ to your far south, that might accomplish absolutely nothing (assuming your strategy is to take Zara's cities) if that other Civ claims the land instead.

More scouting is needed I'd say.

 

[patagonia]

Axe-rush does seem to be the order of the day - maybe for a bit of flavour add some bowmen to the stack for chariot protection/garrison duties. Even if Zara nabs the pigs S will still have access to copper and can practice whipping the food rich capital.

Edit: Is it worth whipping the settler?

In terms of whether it's worth whipping the settler or not, the answer's yes (and no).

S will love this because it's all about the MM!

With the current setup, the chop to complete the WB will get it done the turn before Babylon grows to size 3. On the turn the WB completes and you move the WB out to the fish, revolt to slavery and move the worker to the forested plains hill N of the capital.

Once you're out of revolt, build a worker in 1 turn, working the improved fish and forested plains hill. This combination is important as it gets you extra commerce and maximum overflow from warrior to settler. Then build the settler working a plains hill forest, fish and corn. There's time for one chop into the settler before he's good to whip, so once the worker's done that, he should start roading towards the copper site (this can save another turn on getting your settler there and gets copper online faster if you win the race).

The only drawback to doing this is that Babylon will then be stuck at size 2, which makes getting a second worker take marginally longer. It definitely seems to be the best way to get the settler out quickest though. The more I look at this situation, the more I think Zara has to die if this game's to be won. Taking his cities will block Saladin off from the south of the continent and give you a lot more room than you'd otherwise have.

I'd aim to rush without building a monument in the second city though - working mined copper, it can get a rax and a couple of bowmen out in time to help with the rush; culture's not really going to give you a boost in that regard.

 

[Leper]

kazapp wrote "Yes, you should consider at least DoWing Zara. This puts him into "at war" mode which should slow down his expansion."

It is useless to DOW Zara now to slow him down. It will only result in having five defending archers in his cap instead of two or three. That will lead to disaster. No the way from here is to mask our intentions and surprise attack with a force which can take him out completely.

Since I think the AI always tries to match the power of it's neighbors, is it possible to fool the AI by building various units to within one round of completion in both cities, say a spear, an axe, a bow and a chariot and then whip it all at once for maximum surprise?

 

[JTMacc99]

This is a fair analysis about Zara trying for an early religion. Let's hope Sisiutil can make him pay for that diversion.

Heh. IMHO, it would be almost impossible to win this game if Zara is still hanging around by 1 AD, so let's hope that is exactly what happened. Maybe he'll build a nice wonder or two while Sisiutil is building an army.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As I mentioned, once my second citizen appeared I assigned him to work one of the plains hills to accelerate the production of the work boat.

This was a (small) error, I expect.

I moved the worker into the forest 1W of the capital. Then, rather than have him cool his jets for a turn, I reassigned the tile assignments in the capital to get BW done on the next turn. That way, the Worker could start chopping immediately.

Better than giving up your best tile for more commerce, you should have given up the hammers for more commerce, but done it sooner.

 

[Cabledawg]

You people are idiots...why didnt he just take Nationalism from the hut instead of Fishing....he could have drafted warriors. Dude, you could totally pwn the AI.

 

[jerVL/kg]

First, I'd like to say that I am impressed with the fast updates of this and the previous ALC; such an improvement over that slow-moving Saladin debacle! Keep up the good work!

I would like to discuss the strategy of settling directly on top of the Copper. There was this Axe Rush guide I read where someone strongly emphasized speed as the most important factor...

Bad idea. Settling on the copper will leave us with NO food tiles in the BFC, and very few hammers. It's much better to to settle 1SW and claim the pigs as well -- even if we don't pop its borders right away, we can still work the copper mine which will be MUCH more productive than settling on top of it. We're not in danger of getting DoW'd at the moment (Ragnar's a wild card, but we don't even know where his country is yet) and we still need to build a road from Babylon to city #2 which will take quite a bit of time.

1SW of the copper will also virtually secure that tile culturally, as well as the ivory for much-needed happiness. The pigs might be at risk, if Zara's bold enough to drop a city right next to them, but losing the pigs isn't as big a disaster as losing copper -- we can always farm the lakeside grassland, if necessary.

However, it's crucial to find out where Zara sent that settler. HOPEFULLY he went for that corn & sheep down south -- but if he plomped that city down in the middle of the ivory field, all bets are off.

(Are we still gonna try for GLH? Or is that Wonder off the table now?)

 

[dutchfire]

War Elephant + Catapults would work well against Zara (they're even good against longbows and spearmen, only thing you have to worry about is pikemen). For such a rush, I'd advise settling the copper/ivory/corn, and perhaps another city. Research something like Mysticism - Hunting - Animal Husbandry - Writing - Maths - Masonry - Construction - Horseback Riding.

You could also do Horseback Riding earlier and start stables, but I prefer Construction first to start some catapults.

 

[slobberinbear]

War Elephant + Catapults would work well against Zara (they're even good against longbows and spearmen, only thing you have to worry about is pikemen). For such a rush, I'd advise settling the copper/ivory/corn, and perhaps another city. Research something like Mysticism - Hunting - Animal Husbandry - Writing - Maths - Masonry - Construction - Horseback Riding.

You could also do Horseback Riding earlier and start stables, but I prefer Construction first to start some catapults.

The Elepult is great, but we need something quicker. The old-fashioned axe rush (with Aggressive's wonderful flexibility in promotions) is the ticket here. I agree that that the Elepult should be used liberally against Ragnar or Saladin, though. The AI is quick to Feudalism / Longbows but slower to Engineering / Pikes.

 

[JTMacc99]

War Elephant + Catapults would work well against Zara ...

Oh. No, no, no. That little Rex-bastard will have pushed the Babylonians into the sea by that time in the game. It is my opinion this situation calls for an all-out axe blitz. At this difficulty level, it may require Sis to keep the 3-5 cities Zara has founded, simply because of the all-out war effort will kill his own expansion plans. (I could be wrong about that.)

The Jumbos and Cats will, however, be a good idea when he heads off to grab the holy city before Saladin stockpiles too many highly promoted and technically advanced defenders.


Yeesh, this game is probably going to be a Braveheart-level slugfest for quite a while.

 

[patagonia]

It is my opinion this situation calls for an all-out axe blitz. At this difficulty level, it may require Sis to keep the 3-5 cities Zara has founded, simply because of the all-out war effort will kill his own expansion plans. (I could be wrong about that.)

Unless Zara's founded some absolutely awful cities, I'd keep whatever he builds after declaring (assuming an axe-rush is possible). It'll save you a lot of production in settlers after a war and prevents Saladin/Ragnar from expanding into the space you clear before you get the opportunity yourself.

 

[Sisiutil]

Yeesh, this game is probably going to be a Braveheart-level slugfest for quite a while.

So long as I don't end up with my guts cut out and burned before me, I'm okay with that.

 

[Quotey]

So long as I don't end up with my guts cut out and burned before me, I'm okay with that.

Wimp. Face it like a man.

 

[Sisiutil]

Wimp. Face it like a man.

FREEEEEEDOM!!!

I hope to post the next round tonight.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I only play on prince, so I don't know if it would be advisable on immortal, but I'd definitely try to get a few wonders in Babylon to augment specialists for GPP. (After dealing with YZ of course.)

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

Sis
took a lok at the save , was wondering why are you researching
pottery? you don't have any land that is quickly cottageable
graineries for quicker whipping are nice but wouldn't it be nicer to see where the horses are before saladin claims them

 

[carl corey]

At the end of his round he said Pottery was just an initial thought but that other techs seem to be more important right now: Hunting for ivory and spears, Animal Husbandry for the second city's pigs, Mysticism for border pops. So I'm certain that Pottery will be replaced.

 

[Polobo]

So long as I don't end up with my guts cut out and burned before me, I'm okay with that.

You should place a warrior/scout at the four corners of the continent (once you find them...) so you can retrieve your arms and legs if the need arises.

 

[Phatkarp]

I just can't wait to see what Babylon develops into by the end of the game. It's a pretty sweet site!