ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[patagonia]

Congratulations on grabbing the copper, now go to war like you know you're itching to (and need to). Don't forget to revolt to slavery though!

Tech writing next as others have advised. You're not going to be building cottages/granaries pre-rush so pottery can wait, but you want to get to writing before the military buildup tanks your research rate through the floor. The only real debate is whether to get sailing (for foreign trade routes with Sal) before writing, but I think I'd make writing the priority still. You're not financial so any cottages you build will yield the spectacular return of 21 for 15 turns. If you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole economy-wise, it makes much more sense to work the lake tiles by the capital, so cottages are a very low priority.

Finally, what are your workers doing?

The one next to Akkad's been building roads on random squares when he could have been camping the ivory, and the one next to Babylon's roading an unforested plains hill (where you might get re-growth) when it'd be much better to be mining it or chopping on one of the others. Building the camp by Akkad should be #1 priority there as it'll boost Babylon's happy cap by 1 making more whipping possible; in Babylon, it's probably best to mine the plains hill you're on, then pasteurize the horses without wasting turns roading there. Once you've got an ivory camp and pig pasture done at Akkad, team both workers up to chop/mine at the capital.

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For war, I'd make sure you've got 3-4 spears in your stack, as you'll want to leave one in each city you capture. You know that those horses are by Zara's capital without scouting him further, so marching the army SE from Akkad is probably the most direct route there. Don't forget to mix up your axe promotions with C1/Cover and down the CR line as the need arises, since the C1/Cover axes get better odds against archers in cities than C1/CR1 axes do.

 

[patagonia]

The fact that you also need some spears makes MMing your 2 pop whips a lot easier. When whip unhappiness is about to run out you can just switch from spear to axe or vice versa for one turn (with less than 7 ), whip, then continue with the build that was interrupted.

This is very good advice - follow it

You'll definitely need to do something to get your economy going when you launch the attack. Just building the troops will hurt your economy. Once your army heads out that will add supply costs to the equation. And then any cities you keep will add to city maintenance. You're going to have your work cut out for you to keep the economy from crashing completely. A combination of cottages and libraries/scientists may be needed.

I think a couple of scientists in the capital and the lake/coast will suffice. A useful tip I picked up from Rusten in the IU threads is to swap to 100% taxes once writing's in until you've built a library in the capital. This allows you to stockpile some cash for deficit research afterwards, boosted by the library, so you actually wind up with more beakers than you would have done otherwise.

Longer term, don't forget that you're unlikely to beat the AI to alphabet at this level. In terms of straight beaker-exchange rates, if you're worried about the war with Zara dumping you in a hole economy-wise, then research maths after writing and use your first GS to bulb alphabet since that'll allow you to build research and boost your way to currency/CoL. The spoils of war will help a bunch too.

 

[pigswill]

It's worth building a WB to explore, if you find enough AI coastal cities then sailing gives you coastal trade routes which help the economy. Writing first anyway.

 

[carl corey]

Alphabet is not only used to trade techs; it's also used to obtain techs for peace. That's why I'd love to see Sisiutil go for Writing -> Alphabet and rush as soon as he can. Of course, I have no experience with Immortal (I play on Emperor), so he might be too short of cash to finish researching Alphabet by the time the war is over. I'm very interested to see how things will go on if he does intend to attack Zara now.

 

[csarmi]

I think you should switch to worker in Babylon right now to avoid growing into unhappiness. Start improving the horses and ivory asap (cancel orders - actually you should have done that already). It might be worth to force your copper city to grow a few turns faster (working pigs). Cutting off 2 turns (working it for one turn) is sure worth it, didn't calc for the rest.

As for techonology, I think pottery followed by sailing and writing looks good. I believe you'll have time to include a granary and a lighthouse in your buildup, they're actually not too bad for 2-pop-whips anyway and they raise your production speed (granary almost doubles it and lighthouse gives 3-4 food per turn. I never did a rush, however, so I might be wrong (I don't know how much military has to be built up and how fast).

I also think it's a good idea to get another settler asap, if planted at a good production site it's payback time in hammers might as well be low enough for you to be worth it.

After a few axemen are ready, is it a good idea to declare (and maybe steal a worker or two + scout) or will it just alert the AI?

 

[J-man]

When I get the wheel and agriculture as starting techs I almost always research animal husbandry from the start, when you have horses in your BFC you can do a good chariot rush (works great when playing Egypt).

Sis, why didn't you started of with AH? You had no knowledge of the horses in your BFC, of course. But wasn't worth I try? Maybe I'm just wrong, I play monarch difficulty.

 

[TheDifficult3rd]

Researching Pottery before Writing makes Writing cheaper, so you'll recover some of the beakers you spend on Pottery.

I'm not as up to date on the interlocking tech bonuses you get. I guess the discount you get towards Writing by having Potter is bigger than I thought, that's all.

20% discount

I consider myself to be *reasonably* knowelgeable Civ player. But I've never heard of this "tech discount"! What's the deal?

Is it documented anywhere? Can anyone point me in the direction of some info? I've done a forum search and nothing much is coming up.

As for the game, good to see we are keeping up a strong pace rather than *that Saladin game*

 

[KingMorgan]

There was a post in another Stratey topic - maybe ALC Lincon.

If you have the Prequs tech then you have a 20% discount. i believe that someone checked the code as proof.

 

[Daedal]

I vote pottery -> writing. Your economy is going to tank very soon and you need cottages unless Zara has a couple of gold mines to share.

A useful tip I picked up from Rusten in the IU threads is to swap to 100% taxes once writing's in until you've built a library in the capital. This allows you to stockpile some cash for deficit research afterwards, boosted by the library, so you actually wind up with more beakers than you would have done otherwise.

I like this strategy a lot. After writing there are no more immediate tech goals. I'd usually just start stumbling along toward literature, math, or iron working, depending on needs, but it seems much better to stockpile cash for a while. Besides, you may end up running at a 0% research cash deficit for some time...

Sometimes the AI practically paints a big ol' target on its virtual chest, don't it?

This comment made me think of new Civvers asking how and when to war and it struck me how perfect this game is as an example. It's not too fast or tricky to follow. It just shows a solid strategy with the unwavering goal of defeating Zara. It also shows the thought process that got us to that point. The first two rounds of this game serve as an ideal reference for how to pick an early target and take it down and anyone who needs a better handle on those topics would do well to take another look at those writeups. Now just don't go screwing it up in the third round....

 

[CivCorpse]

I vote a second worker as soon as you finish the switch to slavery. You have the food to regrow very quickly. A second worker chopping while your 1st worker mines/pasutures whips will more than make up for the lost time building another axe. Especially in Akkad, you need those pigs pastured and there are forrests to chop there as well.

 

[Peachrocks]

So far so good Sis. The fact you've got Ivory is even better. Make sure Zara will regret appearing for the third time in a row even if he is one of my favourite leaders. Actually this is Saladin's third in a row too, you played him, then he was a colony and now he's a main AI civ :|.

 

[r_rolo1]

Some thoughts:

-I have to echo patagonia concerns about the worker's usage. You can random road later when Zara and Sal are dead . The camp should be #1 priority: more prod and more

- Not sure if already noticed, but Zara is not in Slavery This means that if you manage to Dow before he changes it unpressed, he'll lose 1 turn in anarchy

- Pottery beats Writing, not only because of the discount, but because you plan to whip Babylon a lot.

-I would consider to make a city in the NW in the pig/fish area ( before sal gets there ). But only after you grabbed 2 cities of Zara ( knowing Immortal, he has 3 cities and he's probably making a settler now )

-You're outspying Ragnar.... this and the 10 EP dif points to that he met a 5th civ 4-5 turns ago.

-Don't go HBR before Construction......

- MM tip of the day : your axe in Babylon is coming 1 turn too late. As it is you'll need to suffer whip penalty if you whip in the next turn or to work the city 1 turn in unhappiness, both sub optimal

 

[PaulusIII]

I'm not sure whether Pottery or Writing should come first. The economy might be sunk, but OTOH you also get pillage gold from cities, so you might be able to deficit research the other.

Also, do not forget to open borders with Saladin ASAP so he can spread Islam to you. The positive diplo and happy bonus will be useful, and since Islam looks to be set to become the only big religion on this continent you might as well convert to it. (Ragnar will generally not found an own religion, Sal already has one, and by the looks of it Zara is doomed )

Although the fifth civ (if r_rolo is correct) might throw a spanner in the happy Muslim block, that might turn out well. Someone for Ragnar and Saladin to vent their anger on.

 

[Artichoker]

I'm now a follower of the Pottery school of thought.

As far as the debate between Pottery and Writing, remember that getting Pottery first gives you a discount on Writing.

The payoff of getting Pottery first is not only unlocking the Granary but also cottages. At some point, you will want to build cottages in your capital, even with all the food sources. This is because the map does not appear very cottage-friendly, but you will still have to squeeze what you can out of it.

You compensate for the lack of cottage-friendly land by building the cottages a bit earlier than normal.

 

[Validator]

I consider myself to be *reasonably* knowelgeable Civ player. But I've never heard of this "tech discount"! What's the deal?

Is it documented anywhere? Can anyone point me in the direction of some info? I've done a forum search and nothing much is coming up.

For the details check out this thread.

Basically the amount of progress you make on your current tech is determined by summing the produced in all your cities and then multiplying the total by two bonus factors. One is based on number of pre-reqs known, and the other is based on the number of civs who you know who have already discovered the tech.

The pre-req bonus multiplier is 1.0 + .2 (for mandatory pre-reqs) + .2 * the number of optional pre-reqs you've researched. So for Writing which has three pre-reqs (AH, Pottery, Priesthood), the multiplier will be 1.2, 1.4 or 1.6 depending on how many you know.

Looking at the actual values in this case, at the current research rate (14 /turn), Pottery will take 9 turns and Writing 16 turns. If Pottery is researched first the extra 20% bonus will amount to about 3 /turn, which should cut 3 turns off the Writing research time.

So that means that about a third of the spent on Pottery will be recovered while researching Writing. But it also means that Writing will finish 6 turns later than if it was researched immediately.

 

[Validator]

The one next to Akkad's been building roads on random squares when he could have been camping the ivory,...

I'm in general agreement about Sisiutil's use of workers, but in all fairness Akkad's borders only popped on this turn, so there was no way to camp the ivory or pasturize the pig in prior turns. Of course if he was a MM expert he would have stopped the worker's road building on the previous turn so it could have immediately started on the ivory camp this turn. But a 1 turn delay probably won't cost him the game.

 

[patagonia]

I'm in general agreement about Sisiutil's use of workers, but in all fairness Akkad's borders only popped on this turn, so there was no way to camp the ivory or pasturize the pig in prior turns. Of course if he was a MM expert he would have stopped the worker's road building on the previous turn so it could have immediately started on the ivory camp this turn. But a 1 turn delay probably won't cost him the game.

You're right actually. I'm so used to normal speed where borders pop at 10 that I forgot it needed 15 on epic.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok on the phants.... but the roading of the plains hill now IMHO is a waste of precious turns, given that S man best prod tile worked is 3H ......

 

[csarmi]

I'm in general agreement about Sisiutil's use of workers, but in all fairness Akkad's borders only popped on this turn, so there was no way to camp the ivory or pasturize the pig in prior turns. Of course if he was a MM expert he would have stopped the worker's road building on the previous turn so it could have immediately started on the ivory camp this turn. But a 1 turn delay probably won't cost him the game.

Agreed, but it's been two turns (he could have switched last turn and he'll only switch next one).

Something I really don't get is the EP usage. Why aren't all points set on Zara? We'd already know what he's researching right now, which is helpful, isn't it?

I think he can avoid all unhappines if he just switches to worker RIGHT NOW, even without switching to slavery. I'm pretty sure that 7 turn loss will come back when there'll be two worker's chopping.

While writing is certainly nice, I'm amazed by the underestimation of granary. it's only 90 hammers and after that you'll get about 3 hammers for 1 food whipped (compared to the 3:2 ratio you got now). I know there's a limit on whip usage (can't do it much faster than every 15 turns), but that still seems like a huge difference.

I'd lso like to point out that there is nothing wrong in growing into unhappiness, it's just -2 food, nothing too serious.

 

[patagonia]

Agreed, but it's been two turns (he could have switched last turn and he'll only switch next one).

Something I really don't get is the EP usage. Why aren't all points set on Zara? We'd already know what he's researching right now, which is helpful, isn't it?

<snip>

While writing is certainly nice, I'm amazed by the underestimation of granary. it's only 90 hammers and after that you'll get about 3 hammers for 1 food whipped (compared to the 3:2 ratio you got now). I know there's a limit on whip usage (can't do it much faster than every 15 turns), but that still seems like a huge difference.

I'd go the other way on EP and say if you plan on stomping Zara early, why waste EP on him at all? You're not going to cash any of them in.

The problem I have with a granary is that those hammers could be easily sunk into axes to rush faster. Babylon's got so much food that it doesn't need to worry about the increased efficiency having a granary to double the regrowth rate would provide.

Incidentally, with a happy cap of 6 in the capital, it's no real crime to be stacking whip unhappiness; you can certainly afford 2 and still have decent output there.