ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[PaulusIII]

1. Hannibal founded Confucianism in that round (via DR) and converted. This has broken up the Jewish block, which is unfortunately somewhat of a mixed bag. The religious tension will likely lead to warfare at some point. This could weaken both of them, but if one wins the war (especially Hannibal) it could create an unstoppable force. And it will probably complicate the diplomatic situation at some point.

I doubt there's much military difference between Mehmed and Hannibal so a war would only do good to keep Hannibal (and to a lesser extent also Mehmed) from running away in tech, especially if it grinds down into a stalemate just like the war between Justinian and Ragnar.

2. The AP hasn't been built yet. An Islamic AP would complicate matters greatly, and could require a major change in strategic planning.

He can still defy every single vote.

What might be the biggest problem in the long term is - yet again! - tech trades and WFYABTA. Saladin, Darius and Mehmed are already in WFYABTA (and I suppose Ragnar as well, but he's useless for techs) which leaves only Justinian, Hannibal and Pacal as tech trade partners - because without religious bonuses, getting someone friendly is hard. Of these, Justinian is falling behind (and as long as he's still grinding it out with Ragnar I doubt he'll ever catch up), Pacal has a low WFYABTA limit as well so you'll bump into his limit as well, and Hannibal is far ahead. I hope the tech trades aren't going to dry up anytime soon.

 

[Peachrocks]

Wow... this is a real messy situation if Saladin is about to declare war on Sisiutil. If you can win this war Sis, I will be very impressed... meh, i'm already impressed but even more so . This was what I was a tad afraid of if you switched out of Islam but hey let's see the master at work .

Pacal has scientific method (Industrial age at 990 AD!?!), he might be small but he could seriously be one to watch out for or better one to play nice with.

 

[DMOC]

How did Pacal II get Liberalism with only 2 cities?!? (maybe 3 or 4?)

 

[Siesta Guru]

Pacal is Mehmed's vassal, so it would also mean declaring war on Mehmed.

Oi, how did i miss that? Well the idea is even worse then i expected then

I was already wondering why pacal only had 2 cities visible.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Half my school doesn't have AC. In the eastern US.

All of my old middle school didn't have AC (only the computer labs and offices). I'm also in Eastern US. Different area (New England), but still.

Worst part: The school was built in 1997. The motto for my school's building was "Leap into the Modern World". Dear God. You say that, but you can't put air conditioning in all of the school.

Even more disgusting: They planned on not putting in air conditioning into the high school. It was built two years ago. But then, a mob of angry parents and teachers signed a petition and it got in. The vote was close, but the vote was to include air conditioning.

The three idiots of the school board. One is from our town. I am astounded at the quality of their work.

For on-topic's sake, great series overall. I need to catch up reading it all.

 

[Gooblah]

Just throwing this out there, but the State of the World post's diplo adviser screenshot was outdated.

In the last screenshot of the round, it says that Pacal II has ended vassalage to Mehmed II. This indicates that either a) he had a lot of land and lost it, b) he was a colony, or c) he was a voluntary vassal.

In A, the land would have helped him establish tech parity which he is losing, B indicates that Mehmed was doing some REXing and gave techs to Pacal, and C indicates that Mehmed and Pacal were good friends and did some trading.

 

[Dresden]

@Gooblah: The diplo situation screens were several turns later and are from the same turn as the posted end-of-round save so they are up-to-date. While you are right that he broke free the turn Sis got the circumnavigation bonus, Pacal's independence was short-lived. He re-vassalized a turn or so later and is currently back to being a (voluntary) vassal.

 

[Gooblah]

Oh.

Whoops, missed that...ah well. That's confusing anyways! So THERE!

 

[BornSlippy]

You're in slavery and HR but have no whip anger in any of your cities. Imagine all those whipable citzens representing people with Airconditioning.

Since nobody else seems to have picked up on this gem...

 

[azzaman333]

Switching to Islam and Theocracy is required to prevent a dogpile. However, I suggest scouting Sal's coastal cities for a large fleet of galleys, as he may be planning to attack Darius rather than you. Which may also explain why he's in war-mode but hasn't attacked you despite the rather large power difference.

 

[Northpole'r]

another round coming? I had almost forgotten that I haddn't seen any updates in a while because I was so busy!

You alive Sisiutil?

 

[kazapp]

My view is that some of you are probably overestimating Saladin's military might.

His empire isn't that much bigger. He hasn't a tech lead. This leads me to the conclusion Sisiutil will probably clobber him, much like he clobbered Montezuma.

The sooner Saladin declares, the sooner Sis can cruise to victory!

At this point in time, focusing on Colosseums or naval units are a waste of hammers, IMHO. Everything should be geared towards defeating Saladin, because if that succeeds, the game is won.

Sure, some of you might prefer an alternative path to victory. But you should then state your preferences openly, so we don't confuse your message for "I think this fringe strategy is better than hitting Saladin hard and fast" when you really mean "I would really wish Sisiutil to demonstrate this fringe strategy despite it possibly not being the best one".

The most simple, most sure way of winning in Civilization still is by good old-fashioned military combat! Land is power.

Any other victory condition, I see as secondary to that - something you resort to when you either can't defeat your opponents or when you're too lazy and you know you can win faster another way...

 

[Jet]

I think CivCorpse's science is tight this time, but I don't agree with his conclusions. I'm not impressed with Darius's land, and naval is expensive. (Incidentally, there should be a galley path to Persia through Roskilde.) Saladin has more units, but equal food and production and no Gunpowder, and is just a dumb AI. You can take him if you focus on it. If he attacks you first, all the better.

I think Steel is the right tech, since you can build adequate counters to everything he's going to have, and Cannons should get you through his cities. But no Trebs; you need field and defense units now and a cash bomb for upgrades is probably not going to drop from the sky. Spend your money on research and build Cannons by hand and whip later. Maybe a couple Cats as stack counters.

Builds:
* First whip enough Gardens for the quest. The Colosseum happy pays for the whip unhappy. I think +4 culture is probably better for warmongering than +1 happy given that you have a lot of happy resources.
* Babylon: whip a Market and Grocer, take back the clams, and hire 4 merchants, 7 specialists total. Then build units.
* Minoan, Akkad (workshop 3 plains), Aksum: units.
* Gondar, Labiela: whip Grocers, then build units.
* new cities: whip Forge if started, Granary, Lighthouse, Barracks, units.

 

[kazapp]

Builds:
* First whip enough Gardens for the quest. The Colosseum happy pays for the whip unhappy. I think +4 culture is probably better for warmongering than +1 happy given that you have a lot of happy resources.
* Babylon: whip a Market and Grocer, take back the clams, and hire 4 merchants, 7 specialists total. Then build units.
* Minoan, Akkad (workshop 3 plains), Aksum: units.
* Gondar, Labiela: whip Grocers, then build units.
* new cities: whip Forge if started, Granary, Lighthouse, Barracks, units.

Or just units.

Now, and until Saladin's gone.

There are very few buildings in the game that can compare to getting a whole city (complete with a few points of population as well as half a dozen buildings) after all...

 

[Jet]

I know you're kidding, but two Forges and two Grocers are already ready to whip, the Market and Grocer are for the city that already has the National Epic, and the Gardens are a UB and a quest. All worth it. The only suggestions of mine that I think could be skipped are the Lighthouses in Nippur and Sippar, leaving them for now as production cities working only land tiles.

I noticed that there definitely must be a Galley route to Persia, since a Persian Work Boat is on our southwest coast.

 

[Artichoker]

I think Steel is the right tech, since you can build adequate counters to everything he's going to have, and Cannons should get you through his cities. But no Trebs; you need field and defense units now and a cash bomb for upgrades is probably not going to drop from the sky. Spend your money on research and build Cannons by hand and whip later. Maybe a couple Cats as stack counters.

The big question now is Military Science or Steel?

Besides the beaker cost, there's one advantage of Military Science that I think gives it the edge over Steel. It's basically its usefulness through upgrades.

If you look at the defensive phase of the war, it requires "field and defense units", as you just mentioned. With Saladin's large number of mounted units, we can safely say that a high % of these will be Pikemen. As the Pikemen gain more XP through successful kills, it will become more advantageous to upgrade them to Grenadiers, making them even more deadly.

The same applies to Macemen on the offensive front. Considering the high importance of defensive buildup in this game, the upgrade to Grenadiers from Pikemen is extra value added to the upgrade from Macemen.

With this emphasis on defensive war, the % of siege units in this case will be lower than normal, at least going by the principle that you suggesting.

The shift from defensive to offense makes the versatility of Grenadiers especially effective in this scenario, giving two valuable upgrade options in the Pikeman and the Maceman.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I recommend Steel first. Cannon are very powerful on defense as well as on attack. they can cripple a SOD before it reaches its target. and on offense they are city killers.

 

[patagonia]

The big question now is Military Science or Steel?

Steel is better since it gets you cannons. Nothing destroys a medieval stack like a bunch of barrage-promoted canonns - you can mop up with axemen afterwards and not have to worry about losing battles.

Cannons/Pikes/Muskets will be enough to take out Saladin and will cut through his cities much quicker than grens supported by trebs/cats.

Edit: cross=post with Tyrant Roger

 

[fjordan]

I disgree wit MS. I think Steel is superior. A pike will defend against a mounted unit just as well as when it's upgraded to a gren. And a cannon will attack even better than an upgraded gren (collateral, more expendable). The big difference is that you don't need to upgrade them right away. Use your maces to take out the injured defenders and then upgrade them after they got CR3. Also, if you can lure his Sod into your territory or a border city, sacrifice some cannons and finish it with your crap units. Then the war is already won, you can just pick off his cities one by one

Just whip some of the suggested buildings and then build some more defensive units (pikes and muskets, maybe some curassiers). When you get Steel, switch to 100% cannons and whip your cities into oblivion. If you already have enough defense, the money you saved from not upgrading the other stuff can be used for upgrading some trebs. That is quite a cheap upgrade. But maximum research seems better, if you can hold on a little longer.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Hi, (we know each other). I agree with this, i have still to build my first gren in BTS but have built probably more than 1000 cannons already. Grens are just not that good in BTS because

- They're a typical anti-rifle unit but it takes the ai some time to get to rifling, moreover
if they have rifles they defend with it but rifles are seldom used in attack by the ai.

- If they have rifles they can make cavs most of the time , grens die hard in defence to cavs, as fjordan notes pikes are as good and much cheaper.

- If you have cannons you won't attack with grens, you'll attack with cr promoted cannons, axemen (maybe even archers) are good enough to mop up after. No need to have grens on attack if you have cannons.

- Cannons oth slaughter everything up to infantry with little loss if brought into position. But the cannons have to be defended, rifles are best for this but cuirassiers do at least as good a job with the double promotion as grens (unless on a hill or forest(unlikely this late in the game), then a gren would be a tad better). if the opponent has cavs you'll need rifles not grens because cavs will attack stacks.