ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

[Sashimi917]

If Saladin manages to found a religion and spread it to MM, they may team-up against you. Spiritual leaders tend to defend their brothers of their own faith.

 

[Cabledawg]

Settling on the copper not only has short term benifits, but even long term, that city will be more productive than anywhere else near the copper. There is no downside to settling on the copper. The 3 hammers youll lose from settling on the copper vs working it is made up by the fact that working it produces no food.....so those 2 food you save can work an extra mine......which youll gain an extra hill tile by settling on the copper.

When this game is over, someone show a pic of their city not on the copper in the late game and Ill show a pic of the city on the copper. Ill guarantee that on the copper has more production.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Settle on copper, rush Saladin. Don't wait for the UU. Your land is quite crappy (silver notwithstanding), while Saladin has rich flood plains. Let's change that, shall we?

Mansa *will* trade monopoly techs, even if he's Annoyed with you. (I think Willem will do the same, they are the only AI's who will trade monopoly techs.)

 

[CivCorpse]

Nice micro analysis. Just because I don't have my calculator with me (and I admittedly slept through most of advanced calculus), can you guys let us know if there would be any benefit in either plan to include 1 turn of anarchy to revolt to slavery... in order to turn stockpiled seafood into hammers via whip? Or would it be worth the population reduction to expedite the builds?

I was not aware you could turn stockpiled food into hammers.

 

[CivCorpse]

Settle right smack dab on top of the copper. IIRC a copper plains hill makes a 3H city center. That is a quick monument then lotsa hammers. Before the axespam begins you might want to chop/whip rush another settler to grab a 3rd city 5E of coppertown.

Regarding the techy lovefest. I wouldn't try and wipe Saladin out right from the start. I would take Medina and any cities west of there. I would chip away at him 2 cities one war, 2-3 cities the next war. If you spend too much time at war you will fall too far behind Mansa.

 

[oyzar]

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...

 

[Sisiutil]

IIRC a copper plains hill makes a 3H city center.

This is correct, I've settled on top of just such a tile in a MP pitboss game I'm playing and the yield is 3H.

 

[Sisiutil]

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...

An excellent point, which is why I'm leaning to the tile 1NE of the copper--the brown city on Wilhelmus' dot map.

 

[whakamole]

I was not aware you could turn stockpiled food into hammers.

Stockpiled food turns into hammers via growing into a new population point to be whipped.

Or, you should try my leftover meatloaf. After stockpiling that for a few days, it's durable enough to pound a nail.

 

[LiberiGlacialis]

I'll skip that meatloaf.

*puts in vote for on copper*

Whats more important at the moment? Food or Axes? If we want to rush Saladin, it's Axes.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Settling on top of the copper means you'll need a monument to grab the wheat.. not optimal...

Until you actually get your worker to farm the thing, it's only a 2F1H tile. In other words, you can work a grassland forest for the exact same effect.

Settle on the copper and focus your worker on chopping around your capital, building a trade route so that the capital can build Bronze units as well, etc. Once your worker runs out of stuff to chop, then go build the farm on the wheat; your borders will probably have expanded by then. I don't know how worth it is to avoid automatically hooking up the copper just for the experience of having to run your worker away from chopping forests so that you can farm and mine up there in order to be able to whip bronze troops in your secondary city where you were probably building a monument anyway while waiting for either the copper or the wheat to be hooked up.

 

[Artichoker]

Until you actually get your worker to farm the thing, it's only a 2F1H tile. In other words, you can work a grassland forest for the exact same effect.

How many grassland forests will be available, assuming that we settle on the Copper?

Settle on the copper and focus your worker on chopping around your capital, building a trade route so that the capital can build Bronze units as well, etc. Once your worker runs out of stuff to chop, then go build the farm on the wheat; your borders will probably have expanded by then. I don't know how worth it is to avoid automatically hooking up the copper just for the experience of having to run your worker away from chopping forests so that you can farm and mine up there in order to be able to whip bronze troops in your secondary city where you were probably building a monument anyway while waiting for either the copper or the wheat to be hooked up.

I'll agree that settling on the Copper is better provided that you have enough grassland forests to work before the 1st border pop comes. But it's hard to see from the map whether there are enough.

 

[Ultimocrat]

On the copper people: The plan is to build axes while stagnating and working only the plains hill mine (7 hammers per turn)?

Settling on the plains hill 1E of the copper, if the wheat gets farmed immediately, means 9 turns of working just the farmed wheat (36 food -- is that right for epic?), for 3 hpt, and then working the copper+wheat afterwards, for 9 hpt (and you'll grow again after around 20 turns). In those first ~30 turns, you'll have around 210 hammers from the settle-copper-stagnate approach (30*7), and about the same from the settle 1E-farm wheat-work copper approach (10*3+20*9).

This is admittedly approximate -- I'm not sure either way how fast you can get the improvements up. But I think there is a break-even point -- if you want to DoW within 30 turns or so, settle on the copper. If you want to DoW beyond 30 turns from now, settle 1E. Settling on the copper also means going to IW right now, and getting gallic warriors in the field sooner rather than later.

EDIT: for reference, Sisiutil DoW'd Zara on turn 108 of the last ALC. That would be 57 turns in the future -- I feel safe saying that 1E of the copper would be a better spot in that timeframe.

 

[Bandobras Took]

We're only talking about the length of time to build a quick monument and pop the borders. After that, on the copper gets just as much use of the Wheat.

 

[DanF5771]

I think waiting for IW + Asterix & Obelix is better.
A Guerrilla 2 GW is a great Worker stealer and very nice for pillaging metals + cutting supply lines. There are quite a lot of hills in Saladin's territory. A CR1 C1 GW gets much better odds vs. a fortified CG1 Dr1 Archer in a city with Walls than a comparable Axe does for a comparable Archer in a city with 20% culture. The values are 54.4% vs. 25.3% (slightly better when promoting to Cover instead of CR1). The Archers need CG2 to bring the odds back down to 24.1% for the GW, but those Archers will be rare and might be softened with Guerrilla 3 GWs.
So I don't vote for the ultra short term settling on top of Copper version, I like 1NE better.

 

[oyzar]

Monument mean he get one less axe/gallic.. also not settling on the plains hill means ~1 less gallic / axe by the time he attacks... Seems like it is way better than the long term spot that gains the spot as saladins city gets the cow anyways...

 

[vicawoo]

I would settle on the copper if medina were his capital. However, it isn't, and medina will be easy to conquer. You don't even have a barracks or the workboats, you won't get axes any faster by settling on the copper.

If you wait until iron working, saladin will probably have iron working and some axes.

He will not steal the cows if you have a monument before he pops. He will output 1 culture per turn, so you will you. And once you pop, you'll output 20 culture per turn in the cow tile.

 

[tycoonist]

settling on the copper loses 3 hammers. not worth it.

 

[iamnleth]

I would settle on the copper if medina were his capital. However, it isn't, and medina will be easy to conquer. You don't even have a barracks or the workboats, you won't get axes any faster by settling on the copper.

This is an excellent point. I was debating on whether or not to settle on the copper, but I think this makes settling 1NE most favorable.

I might consider a city directly on the copper rather than 1NE a better city as maybe a financial leader, but in this case, you're Boudica. You're looking for prime production cities, a 1NE of the copper is a good example of one.

 

[DMOC]

Did I miss something or didn't you chop anything else besides a Settler?

Of course you should Axe Rush Saladin - his capital isn't even on a hill. Don't wait for anything, not Gallic Warriors, not Catapults, and don't build any more Settlers - take the arabian cities instead.

With Gold and Ivory Sal's lands seem very attractive. Don't let anyone talk you out of taking these lands for yourself asap!

How do you know Sal's capital is on a hill? I didn't see the capital on the map.

Settle 2nd city 1NE of copper and chop axes.

Mansa *will* trade monopoly techs, even if he's Annoyed with you. (I think Willem will do the same, they are the only AI's who will trade monopoly techs.)

Willem is not included in this.