ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

Nares said:
Why? Vandal seems to be the centermost city (any more centered would require the destruction of Vandal to allow the two-tile allowance for cities). Any other reasoning behind the Palace's placement?

Well With Versailles he's looking at Three Centers (which the Current Location fits with Well: Versailles Noth, FP South, Capital Center)

However, without Versailles he's looking at two centers, a North Capital and a South FP.. which means the Capital has to be moved north
 
If you get versailles then reduced maintenance, if you don't get versailles then gold to run a deficit while waiting for new cities to break even. It would mean leaving final decide re palace until outcome of versailles is known.
 
Round 11: to 1750 AD

Well, I finally know what victory condition I'm going for, and it ain't Cultural, gang.

First off, though, the recap:

As I said I would, I finished Optics, switched civics to Slavery for a few turns, whipped out two Caravels (one in Barcelona, one in Alexandria), and set off to explore the world. I saw Paris, I saw France, I won the circumnav and did a little dance:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_01.jpg


And I finally met my planet's unlikely shrinking violet:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_02.jpg


Well, I suspected there was a spiritual civ on that continent. It turned out I was more correct about that than I knew, but more on that later.

As you can see, I did a little tech trading with Monty, who seems to have gotten a personality transplant and is proving very affable. Far from being the joke he usually is by mid-game, as you'll see, he's done okay for himself.

Since my opponents are not exactly stellar technophiles, I'm winning most of the tech races despite my deplorable research levels. The Great Expansion was going full-bore this round, and all those new cities drove my science slider down, down, down, to 10% briefly, to 20% for most of the turns. Yet I still managed to beat everyone to Economics and got my free Great Merchant. I sent him to London, since it's still the only holy city I have with a shrine:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_03.jpg


I was tempted to try a trade mission, but thought, why? I won't need to do a bunch of upgrades to units--my usual reason for a TM--for quite some time, if ever. So I took the long-term view and realized I'd get more money out of this GM by merging him into what will be my best commerce city.

The trade you saw above, for Engineering, opened the next wonder, the Hagia Sophia. Now I often take a pass on this one, but with the amount of terrain I have to improve, and with my research level meaning Steam Power was a long way off, I decided I could really use it:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_04.jpg


By the way, for those of you wondering, yes, I built Forbidden Palace quite some time ago, in Madrid (see the little silver star?). I've forgone Divine Right and Versailles, but it still hasn't been built yet and I'm wondering if maybe I should take a run at it anyway. Of course, if I decide to do that, watch it get built by Nappy on the first turn of the next round.

My +1 movement Caravels kept exploring and discovered the identity and fate of the other continent's eliminated civ:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_05.jpg


Yes, India! There wasn't just one spiritual civ on the other continent, there were two. I suspect it was Asoka rather than Gandhi since France built most of the wonders. I also found it intriguing that Monty managed to capture both the Christian and Jewish holy cities. It's tough to say for sure, but I think it was him and, surprisingly, not Nappy who eliminated India. And since his only remaining neighbour shares his religion, they seem to be getting along with one another. I may try to break up that little cuddlefest later, if the need arises, but I'm beginning to doubt it will.

Regardless, as I said, Monty's done quite well for himself this game. He's even way ahead of Nappy in score. Who'da thunk it?

Ah well, back to Egypt. I keep spawning Great Scientists when I really want Great Prophets. Normally I love getting a GS, and they are proving handy, so I can't complain too much, but having four shrines right now would really help. As it is, once the expansion is done, I'm going to spread Hinduism to all those cities. As for the GS, well, one got merged into Cairo as a super-specialist--I just don't have another city that's anywhere close to its commerce/science level to justify an Academy--and the other I popped to rush Astronomy:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_06.jpg


I switched civics to Free Market shortly thereafter for the foreign trade routes that now became available. I lost my free specialists from Mercantilism, but in most of the new cities, they were just citizen specialists, since my build queue in each one is Courthouse-Granary, then Lighthouse-Harbour if coastal, Forge if they're not--so the free specialists are generally not that useful. Switching to FM gave me a +12 gold boost. Then I went shopping:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_08.jpg


ALC-Hatty1750AD_09.jpg


And what the heck, I threw in a tech trade while I was at it:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_07.jpg


After a little more city tile micromanagement back home, this allowed me to raise the science slider to 30% for awhile. Woo-hoo! Thank heavens my opponents are so pathetic in that regard. Neither of them even has Education, let alone Astronomy. Though in addition to DR, Nappy has Chemistry and Replaceable Parts on me. Pity he's not willing to trade them. I suspect this is why he hasn't built Versailles yet; he's probably indulging in a military build-up instead. So long as he stays away from Astronomy for awhile, I've got no problem with that.

Meanwhile, I kept expanding, even to the most remote and undesireable locations on my continent:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_10.jpg


(Heh. "Iceburg". Get it? All right, so I'll keep my day job...)

I have also discovered a little three-tile island just off the northwestern corner of my continent: two plains hills (one of them with a forest), a plains tile with iron, and a crab tile. I'm building a galleon in Alexandria to go claim it.

So I know we discussed spamming cities, but isn't this going a little overboard?

Not at all:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_11.jpg


There's your victory condition right there, kids. Domination. Even without a city on Iron Island, I'll probably have enough land on my continent, once a few of the newer cities' borders expand, to get the required 64% easily. (I'm still holding my GA in reserve in Thebes, just in case.) Then it's just a matter of ensuring that the population can increase from 43% to 59%. Hence the emphasis on Granaries and Lighthouses. I also need to build several workboats for all the fish tiles I've claimed.

Here's the map in 1750 AD:

ALC-Hatty1750AD_12.jpg


So, if Monty and Nappy delay Astronomy like they seem to be doing, I should be safe to pursue a completion backwards principle domination win. (Kudos to the first person who identifies the obscure pop culture reference in that sentence.) Why backwards? Compare this to the Monty ALC domination win, which was more typical: expand and build first, then start warring and keep warring until you finally have the land and population. Well, in this case, I warred before I was really thoroughly prepared for it, and now I'm expanding and building--but the end result will be the same.

Unless something spectacularly weird (and disastrous) happens--like Nappy and Monty completing Navigation and invading me en masse--I expect the next round to be played through to the end of the game. I am also going to go out on a limb and predict that since this victory is likely to be achieved far earlier than any other I've had so far--probably sometime in the 1800s--this will be my highest ALC score, and therefore my all-time highest score, EVAR.

Hatty rocks.
 
Well it certainly looks like you've sewn up the victory in this game. Assuming you can get that last 2% land area (which from the looks of it is no problem), you just need to build your empire while carving a path towards biology. I'd guess you can grow enough citizens to score a domination win before that, but there is no point to leaving it to chance.
 
Araqiel said:
Well it certainly looks like you've sewn up the victory in this game. Assuming you can get that last 2% land area (which from the looks of it is no problem), you just need to build your empire while carving a path towards biology. I'd guess you can grow enough citizens to score a domination win before that, but there is no point to leaving it to chance.
Yes, I was thinking of bee-lining to Biology; I'll have to see how many turns it will take me to guage whether it would be worthwhile. I was also thinking of throttling back the cottage spam in favour of farms.

The risk is that if one or both aggressive civs on the other continent get Astronomy, they would also have much more formidable units than me. It wouldn't do to get caught with my pants down.
 
Well luckily if you're careful an oceanic invasion isn't much of a risk at all. Chemistry is in the tech path of biology and it will allow you to build frigates. Build a LOT of them and setup a navy that will enable you to take sink a large portion of any invasion fleet.

Despite that I have a feeling with your free religion and all the trading you're doing they won't invade you. If you see an opportunity to bribe one to attack the other (doubtful they'll go for it) do it.

I would definitely favor farms over cottages in some of your newly planted cities. But cottaging certainly isn't a bad idea and would provide a layer of security.
 
Well I figured you'd probably hover under the culture limit on your Continent, but I guess not. This will definitely be interesting... Biology might be Worthwhile because that path allows Grenadiers, a decent unit... you could ease the cottage spamming a little...as well.

[and a good point about Frigates with Chemistry Araquiel, forgot about that.]

So probably Farm the New cities, going National (Taj), MTrad(WP+Upgrade), Chem (Gren+Frigates), SM, Bio, Constitution, Corporation, RP, Rifling

All the while spamming Hindu Missionaries both to your cities and then theirs (and focusing on Banks, Markets, Grocers in cities that have their Granaries and Courthouses)

And getting a Dedicated Prophet pump [National Epic plus Temples and Cathedrals.. run max Priests with Pacifism]

Your Civics are basically good as is, US and Representation are too expensive for your needs, FSpeech gives you the Culture boost and gets the existing towns, Serfdom/Free Market all good. (Free Religion only give up temproarily to try and get a Prophet or two... Shrine then goes in Best Developed Holy City)
 
Good stuff, Krikkitone.

I do indeed have NE in Barcelona. My mistake was running too many specialists--in addition to three priests, I have two scientists and two merchants. I'm trying to spread Taoism there (1st Missionary failed) for a 4th temple and a 4th priest, and I'll try to run nothing but priest specialists for awhile.

Pacifism may be a good idea--I certainly don't have many military units. Heliopolis looks like it could also produce a GP with a little push, and London just might as well.

The tech path sounds good. I have, thanks to these games, acquired a respect and even an affection for Grenadiers.

As for the Hindu missionaries--my first task is to spam them on my own continent. Fewer than half my cities are Hindu (the other religions have spread too).

Now that the Grand Expansion is almost over (one city to go, on Iron Island), I am focusing once again on infrastructure. The new cities are getting population-increasers, the old ones are getting commerce-multipliers.

Should be a fun finish!
 
It should be interesting. Land isn't the issue. You have to grow population 40% at the expense of two civilizations. Whether or not you can do that solely on your own continent will depend a lot on the terrain Monty and Napoleon have to work with. Both Monty and Napoleon typically use lots of farms.
 
Something to remember if you come up a few percentage points short of population: A few ICBMs to the other continent should lower their population enough to win.
 
One thing I'd suggest if you do have to go to war is to raze their cities. Then you have the same population, but it's a smaller pie. This also means that they can't retake the cities you torch. Eventually, if you scorch the earth enough, then you will dominate...
 
:satan: says, "Burn the heathens." :evil:

:jesus: says, "Burn the heathens." :worship:

:agree:

Hail to the :egypt:

:banana: :banana: :banana:

I think you know where this leads....

Something about peanut butter and jelly...
 
Sisiutil said:
I saw Paris,
I saw France,
I won the circumnav
and did a little dance:

Hahahaha. :lol: See, it's for things like this (apart from the instructive gameplay and all) why your game reports are my favourite threads right now. Great work. :goodjob:


Sisiutil said:
Well, I finally know what victory condition I'm going for, and it ain't Cultural, gang.

Boo! Hiss! :gripe:

Of course I agree that at this point going for anything but domination would be silly (and it's a cool variant of domination, too), but I've been looking forward to that Cultural Victory for several games now, and it still isn't coming. Can you try to get one in in one of the next ALC games? Who's next -- one of the English girls, perhaps?

Also, more on topic: How well do Napoleon and Montezuma like each other? Is it feasible to make them dislike each other (do they have Liberalism? can you get one of them into Free Religion to get rid of the religious diplo bonus?) and go to war with each other so they'll leave you alone and you can grow your population in peace?
 
What a blood-thirsty bunch! Here I am ready to sit back and snag a domination win by default, and everyone's urging me to obtain the required pop percentage by attrition. :ar15:

Well, as with most dom wins, I'll be watching the numbers very carefully. And in every dom win I've ever accomplished, I've always had to go to war late to put me over the required amount. Mind you, that's always been for land, not for population...

Oralelk (where do you people come up with these board names?!? Pigswill, Oralelk...), I hear ya on the cultural win. But in hindsight, I realize that when I decided to (a) war from the get-go and (b) own my continent, I was going for a domination win, I just didn't know it.

The next game will indeed be with one of the "English girls"--Vicky. (I'll be skipping Elizabeth; I play as her pretty often and she's very popular.) Financial does lend itself to cultural wins. In the past, I've done cultural wins when I find myself alone on a decent-sized continent. (Fractal map, usually.) It might be interesting to try to accomplish it on a continent with other civs--by rapidly expanding, or through an early Axe rush, then snubbing war altogether. Mind you, I'd need reasonable neighbours for that.

But that's another thread. This game is not quite done. Tune in tomorrow!
 
Rofl, so funny to see that victory condition screen and then you realize you have already almost won the game. Very nice Sisiutil. Perfect example of early warmongering and the benefits of it. I tried the same in another game of mine but got ganged by 4 civs who for some reason all hated me (even though I was spreading my religion to them and open boarders). Note to self: Never piss 4 civs off at the same time. It hurts.

Great game, very good things learned and waiting for the ending and the next ALC.
 
Be prepared for 63.9% land even with iron island (tho' you could be lucky). Now that Nap has got islam he might well convert himself anyway which would make diplomacy easier, if not convert him to hinduism tho not Monte. Otherwise looks pretty straightforward (tho you're still running a significant deficit on military units). Chemistry for grenadiers and frigates is imho the best early industrial military tech. Despite my early misgivings you're almost there, congrats can wait till you've crossed the line.
PS Oralelk, Sisiutil, where do these people get their names from?
 
Sisiutil said:
I switched civics to Free Market shortly thereafter for the foreign trade routes that now became available. I lost my free specialists from Mercantilism, but in most of the new cities, they were just citizen specialists, since my build queue in each one is Courthouse-Granary, then Lighthouse-Harbour if coastal, Forge if they're not--so the free specialists are generally not that useful. Switching to FM gave me a +12 gold boost.


mercantilism is only useful with caste system
you switched to slavery! boo to you! (;) just a joke, you played this brilliantly AFAIK) with caste system you could have had +3 gold /city, + 2 culture from sistin chapel, including your most remote iceburgs!
+12gold? :lol:
 
Sisiutil said:
What a blood-thirsty bunch! Here I am ready to sit back and snag a domination win by default, and everyone's urging me to obtain the required pop percentage by attrition. :ar15:

count me with the bloodthirsties.
Think of it this way : your opponent AIs already have chemistry (well, not sure about it, but it's a usual path for the AI) and they often go for biology.

They will grow faster than your iceburgs.:rolleyes:
I'm not sure you can outgrow them.:cry:
 
Me, I'm a peacenik. It doesn't matter if monte and nap grow faster than you;you've got more land and more cities to compensate. Once your jungle cities become farm cities pop should increase rapidly.
 
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