ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[pigswill]

Having read other posts and rechecked the map then I'd agree there's also an argument for other blue circle on hills 2 south. Might give you an option of a commerce site north of current position if you went south and if you're looking at early rush then you're looking at early production. But on the other hand current location ain't bad either.
It wouldn't do any harm to move warrior north east first to check out the river before deciding.

 

[actionmedia]

I would send the warrior to scout NW 2 tiles, then turn him NE one tile then gowing East 10-12 tiles, than NW and back W.

I would use the second warrior to scout the South half

 

[Killroyan]

I hope Sisiutil will make his move fast. The suspense is killing me. Am I the only one or are the starting positions and the first few moves always the most exciting ones in the game?

And the cottage city to the north with the river if you settle the city 2 tiles south was also something I was thinking of.

 

[Eggolas]

I vote for moving the warrior NE to the forest tile to reveal the three tiles that would be in the fat cross if you settled in place. If nothing special is revealed, then I would move the settler one tile NW and settle next to the river.

This gives you the hut to pop later, meaning that it could contain a tech once the city is settled.

The river will speed all forms of traffic to the capital from outlying cities. The cities need only to connect the resource to the river, instead of building roads the entire way. The irrigation potential for the river is especially nice, better than the lake any day with the extra commerce for building cottages there, or alternatively, waterwheels.

Finally, while I like the AH decision, I'd definitely go for BW first. Youi will most likely have Rome and Greece in your neighborhood and I would definitely want to get copper hooked up quickly. If you don't have easy access to horses, then perhaps copper or iron will show. One of the three almost always is within the range of a second city.

Good luck!

 

[Rhodesia]

Warrior to the NE. Anything good reveals itself then settle in place otherwise settle on hill to the S.

Deffinetly BW for copper and chopping.

 

[vampy420]

very good point regarding hunting first .. scout for exporation fairly early, plus it can be promoted to medic to leter help keep that WC stack on the move.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 1: to 3960 BC

I'm having touble waiting as well guys. I played one more turn late last night.

I moved the Warrior 1 tile NE to reveal what else would be in the fat cross of the start. Nares, you were 2/3 right: plains, grassland, grassland/forest. A grassland hill N of the forest. No resources.

I then moved the Settler 1 tile E, onto the cows, as previously suggested. More hills, including a desert hill. Ugh. I hate those.

I then moved the Settler SW (1S of the starting position, onto the plains hill). I popped the hut, forgoing the chance of popping a tech much later because I think I was right all along, that this is the best spot for Thebes.

The hut popped for a map.

Normally I'd be disappointed. Normally that's my second-least favourite good hut product, after barbs. But check this out:

Interesting, no? Look at all that jungle! And more of that river to my SW. Not too many resources, but I suspect more of them are in the fog. I'd lay odds there are at least a couple of gems tiles down there, and/or several calendar resources.

(Can I just say I get a kick out of the fact that one of the tiles NOT revealed is the one just a little south of this village on a hill. "We never look there! It is forbidden!")

Oh yes, and another goody hut. I think the Warrior should bee-line to the hut. Then he should turn and head east to explore that darkened area.

Now here's a close-up of the area around the Settler:

I am still thinking that settling on the plains hill where the Settler is currently located is best. There is a banana tile available if I move south, but that means giving up another turn and sacrificing fresh water.

As for research, I'm leaning to Hunting -> AH as well, based on your recommendations. A Scout would be useful--there appears to be a lot of territory to my north that needs exploring. And I liked vampy's idea about a medic-promoted Scout to keep up with the WCs. On the other hand, the map has done some of the exploring for me.

Thoughts?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

If you want to rush with WCs, then, you gotta go to Animal Husbandry before BW. You'd have to research mining as well, and it'd likely take a while, especially if you settle in place. If you had fishing, I'd say you should and use the lake to speed up getting hunting(you'll probably need to find the horses, after all), but you don't, so it's a short-term waste(the lake). Look around a little...so long as you Hunting---->AH, you'll probably be fine. BW is just too much of a delay. If you go to BW, you may as well just build axes. Even on Noble, my experience is that the AI usually doesn't go for long without BW. Second city to horses, and pump out the chariots. In the meantime, pursue BW and settle the third city by bronze, send out the WCs at your chosen victim(the scouts'll help), and prepare an axe rush as back-up....or for another victim. When you start seeing spearmen, get your WCs back to your cities and have them work on barb-squishing. They can't fog bust, but they can stand up to axemen very well and slaughter everything else. They make great settler escorts for this very reason, butdon't throw them away trying squeeze too much out them like the Cho-ko-nu...

 

[vampy420]

In my experience playing hatty on the 'earth' scenario (hatty gets lots of barbs there) - WC with flanking1 + the xtra visibility promotion make good fog busters / barb supressors - tho they have only slightly better than 50-50 odds vs barb axes.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I am still thinking that settling on the plains hill where the Settler is currently located is best. There is a banana tile available if I move south, but that means giving up another turn and sacrificing fresh water.

Check again. You'll still have fresh water.

The city here is very brown. With the Cows and the Rice it is going to rock in the ancient era, but in the modern era you're going to need quite a few farms to feed it all.

Of course, moving it one south doesn't help very much, and runs the risk that you park yourself on the Copper or Iron that you would rather mine.

As for research, I'm leaning to Hunting -> AH as well, based on your recommendations. A Scout would be useful--there appears to be a lot of territory to my north that needs exploring. And I liked vampy's idea about a medic-promoted Scout to keep up with the WCs.

I'm not sold on this - it feels slow to me. You are burning 57 beakers and get 28 back, which isn't a bad deal. I'd be more inclined to take it were Ivory in view.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah I'd go with settling in place, 1 S and you give up that Grassland-River Strip in exchange for a banana that won't get used soon.

Hunting->AH would be good, get that scout out not just to find horses but to find other Civs. (and then Definitely Mining->BW... you need to use those Hills)

So you could go Worker->Scout->Warrior->Settler->Warrior->Settler->WCs (use as scouts while first Warrior moves back home)

 

[Nares]

I think there's a little too much emphasis still on getting those first War Chariots up as soon as possible. Let me just remind you that you'll want to grow your second city, and will need to build some infrastructure to help facilitate the War Chariot production.

War Chariots are good units, but given how easily they can be killed by defending Archers, you're going to need dozens of them. They're so cheap to produce because they're specifically so weak. If you're spending multiple turns building them, you're falling behind. I found it's far better to send them out a little bit later in larger numbers and at 1-2 turn production than it is to try and send out a few while at 3-4 turn production.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think there's a little too much emphasis still on getting those first War Chariots up as soon as possible. Let me just remind you that you'll want to grow your second city, and will need to build some infrastructure to help facilitate the War Chariot production.

War Chariots are good units, but given how easily they can be killed by defending Archers, you're going to need dozens of them. They're so cheap to produce because they're specifically so weak. If you're spending multiple turns building them, you're falling behind. I found it's far better to send them out a little bit later in larger numbers and at 1-2 turn production than it is to try and send out a few while at 3-4 turn production.

I see your point, but I wasn't thinking of using the WCs to attack a city (unless it's only defended by a Warrior or two). I was thinking of sending a couple out to stifle the growth of one or two neighbouring rivals by stealing workers, pillaging tile improvements, and forcing any workers I don't nab to remain holed up inside a city. This would then be followed up by more WCs to reinforce and replace the originals, then a more traditional Axe rush--except, if all goes according to plan, the Axes should have a much easier time of it since the target civ(s) should have very few cities, units, and overall production.

Nevertheless, a sufficiently-promoted (or lucky) Archer could, conceivably, take out a War Chariot, so I was trying to think up tactics to deal with that for the first few WCs, which will be alone and isolated in enemy territory. One thing I thought of is the usual pillage-and-retreat, and try to retreat across a river from any counter-attacker. Another is to pair the Chariots so the second one can attack the defender who would be weakened from the battle. And, of course, promotions--I was thinking of giving the first few early raiders Flanking, but later WCs would get Combat.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually combat is probably better for the early raiders as Flanking is only good when attacking.

and i'd say your general idea should be hit a city pre-Axemen when
Warriors: Chariots is 2:1 or less (1:1 if defenses present)
OR
Archers : Chariots is 1:2 or less ... don't bother if defenses present

Flanking would be best for 'suicide chariots' in the second scenario.

 

[pigswill]

From what's been revealed on the map so far plenty of options for commerce cities but production is a bit more scarce (though plenty of the continent remains concealed). Current location is as good as 1 south for a production based city.
In terms of chariot rush it all depends on how quickly horses can be hooked up. If you're looking to take out cities then you need a chariot stack early on otherwise chariots get a more subordinate role to a 'traditional' stack of CR axes. If you're looking for at axes then you're probably also looking at barracks which delays the rush a bit more.
This has implications for research order. You need to know if horses are about to know if early chariot rush is a viable option though you can still argue that a scout explores faster than a warrior.
In terms of building a second city this only becomes an issue if you find horses at the capital.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Settling one square south, on the hill gains you an extra food resource. 3 food resources makes the productive prospects of that city location rather attractive. The main loss of the "Southern option" is the river-tiles and farmland. Your city will be sitting in a bunch of plains which don't have all of the options that grasslands do. Your capitol will be a production city, not a commercial giant.

Several people have made several comments about very cautious usage of war-chariots in battle. Unless the enemy is facing you with metal-wielding units, there is absolutely no danger to your WCs (5 vs 3 = 96.2% win). You will not often face "massive casualties" going up against archers because, as I pointed out in the pre-game, combat-promoted war-chariots are often in fact stronger than the defending archers. You don't have to use flighty "hit and run" chariot tactics with these guys because they are so strong. War chariots fight toe to toe with Axemen in open combat.

Do not be afraid to plunge these guys deep into enemy territory. If you are facing archers, there is no danger, and if you are facing spears, you need to destroy their metal.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

War Chariots, from my experience, have nothing to fear from unpromoted archers if you got early enough. There shouldn't be many and your odds should be in the 60's with Combat 1, and they'll only get better as your chariots get tougher...

 

[Gnarfflinger]

What I've found is that if you have a 2-1 numbers advantage when you attack the cities, the WC's will get the job done. In my most recent attempt, that paid off for all three cities that Askoka founded (which, coincidentally, were all holy cities). Then I set open borders with each of the three remaining civs. My remaining chariots are exploring the land while I spread the first of the religions that I captured (The one I have the shrine for already).

Now that there is an epidemic of peace, and I'm nearing Machinery (I already have Construction and CS), I'm debating building a stack of doom or two. But the first target? Cyrus who's got almost as much land as I, MM who I've left alone, or Ceaser who's just a general jerk...

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 2: to 3000 BC

I started by settling on the northernmost plains hill:

Yes, I could have picked up another food resource by moving one more tile south. BUT it will take awhile to get to it, since it requires calendar; in the meantime, I think I'd prefer those grassland tiles to the north for either farms or cottages.

I had also decided to follow several people's advice and research Hunting before Animal Husbandry so I could build a Scout, so I wanted to get on with things. I'd already used one turn climbing the hill. Meanwhile, I started building a worker in Thebes.

The Warrior started moving south towards that goody hut. But rather than bee-lining to it, I took a chance that I had the time to do a little exploring. Since the Warrior was headed southwest, I was planning on sending my Scout northeast, which would mean leaving some tiles due west of Thebes unexplored. So I used the Warrior to reveal a few of them on his way. I thought he could make a little more use of the protection of the forest and hill tiles that way, too.

Good decision, it turned out:

That should help fund research for awhile.

And my good luck held. The goody hut revealed by the map eventually popped for this:

I interrupted the build of the Worker to quickly get the Scout built and on his way once I finished researching Hunting. Then it was on to Animal Husbandry and crossing my fingers for horses.

My scout went North, popped a hut just north of that grassland hill for some experience (he earned Woodsman I and II, and the nickname "Woody"). A little further north, I met my first rival:

As you'll see shortly, however, I'm pretty sure Caesar is not up there--he's just exploring. Still, I think he's probably the closest AI civ.

Also a little to my northest, I found something very interesting:

Marble! Nice. That could help with the Oracle and some sort of slingshot. But that's a ways off.

Meanwhile, my Warrior kept going south. He had turned east to head back across the continent and back up its eastern side when he revealed a hut on a desert hill. That popped for a map which revealed ANOTHER hut further south. I dithered over that; this reminded me of one of those kid's games where you find a note that reveals a clue that leads you to another note, and so on.

Well, a goody hut is a goody hut, so south the Warrior went, skirting the desert, and popped the hut for experience. He also met two more of the neighbours:

You can see Vicky's border in the screenshot; she's obviously very far south of me. Interestingly, she's founded Hinduism! I'm not sure where Isabella is yet. As you can see, she's founded Buddhism--no surprise there. So I have two holy cities I could capture.

So I'm wondering how I should promote that Warrior; should I give him Combat I and II and haul him back north to be a city defender, or should I give him Woodsman I and II and keep him exploring? He's pretty far from home after all...

What's that? You don't give a toss how I promote the Warrior? Oh, of course--you're all waiting to find out if I found horses! And here I am talking about everything else but. Silly me.

So, two locations--neither of them within the capital's fat cross, unfortunately, and neither particularly close. The southwestern one requires crossing a lot of jungle, and there are some tiles nearby I'd have to reveal before settling on a city location. I'm thinking of giving the Warrior the Woodsman promotions and hustiling him back up there to reveal those tiles around the horses. Lots of grassland, though, and either a gold or banana resource that can be in that city's fat cross. And it keeps with the idea of expanding towards your enemies.

On the other hand, the northeastern location is fully revealed and has several other attractive resources nearby--to many, in fact; they can't all fit in the fat cross. You can see why I think Rome is not up there. I don't have any idea where exactly it is--probably south of that desert to Thebes' east--but I doubt that it's up there. If I go northeast, we can start dotmapping--there are enough tiles revealed to plan at least a couple of cities up there. Mostly plains around the horses, unfortunately.

So what do you think? I'm building a Settler right now, though I'm wondering if I should interrupt that build for a couple of Archers, since the capital is undefended and the new city would be as well. Lots of decisions to make, folks!

 

[Sisiutil]

Some more thoughts:

The more I think about it, the more having the capital undefended makes me nervous. The Settler has 6 turns to go, but I'm really leaning towards interrupting that build for at least one Archer.

I haven't done any chopping yet; was waiting for enough of the map to be revealed to see what would be worth chopping for, as well as improving the cow and rice tiles. Should I chop an archer? Or two? Then let the Settler finish building?

On another tack: I'm thinking of warring early. I know where Vicky is. She probably has no idea where I am. She has a holy city. I have a Warrior on her border at LEVEL 3. Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Why wait for WCs? Lurk outside her borders, watch for one of her Workers to appear, declare war, snag him, send him north; then fortify the Woodsman II Warrior on a forested hill in her fat cross and let her go nuts trying to remove him. The War Chariots show up a few turns later, and Vicky is easy pickin's.

As always, your thoughts are welcome.