ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[Lance of Llanwy]

I still recommend stomping Vicky. It's a bit of a risk, but it ensures that you'll have plenty of room, no matter what. Knocking the English out secures that entire western coast, as well as that south-central resource clump. There's a lot of gold and gems in there, as well some food, extra horses, and ivory. Happiness galore, and plenty of commerce too. I don't see such a juicy concentration anywhere else. Why not just wait? Because then it takes a while, and it may push you towards one victory type instead of the other. WCs give you an early advantage and let you get there fast. At the very least, stifle her and stunt her growth. If you leave her be, you may not find yourself with so much room...

 

[Hans Lemurson]

In my haughty, arrogant oppinion, north was not the direction to settle in. I've always been a proponent of cities on the edge of the jungle, since they have so much future potential. When making choices in expansion, I always gravitate towards the warm, wet jungles and their opportunities for commerce rather than the drier temperate zones.

Specificly, I am referring to the southern horse location. The choice real-estate there is a particular spot where you can get Cows, Horses, Gold and Gems all in one spot. It also forms a vanguard against the southern desert to help you draw the line of settlement. It is 1 square away from the river, making horse-connection a breeze. It gives you Horses, reasonable productivity, commerce and a strategic position.

I can understand why you did not immedietly spring for this location, since the gold 'n gems were not visible to you for a long time due to your exploration pattern. This does bring me to an important point though:

Important point: Your first duty in exploration is to find the best possible location for your second city. This means not travelling into the far-off distance trying to meet people (don't worry, they'll come to you), this means you must travel in a circle around your start location. Once completed, your map should be a large circle with a radius of about 8 or 9 tiles around your capitol, this should encompass all of the reasonable locations for building a second city. I have had painful experiences in the past where I chose to expand in the wrong direction, away from the rich land.

As for whether a chariot-rush is in order, I would strongly recommend doing this as soon as possible. You have a strong military advantage, and an insanely productive capitol. At the very least, your chariots can stuff-up your opponents expansion and production while your heavy-troops (city-raiders) trudge their way down south for the killing blow. Thebes is perfectly capable of churning out a WC every other turn. Believe me when I tell you this: You posess the military capacity to fight and win 3 simultaneous wars with all of the other inhabitants of your continent. 2 Cities should focus on military, but after that, WCs are so cheap that the rest of your development can focus on developing the economy you will need to fund your conquest.

One final piece: You needn't bother with the Oracle if you want to conquer. The longer you take before mobilizing your army, the more likely it is that your opponents will be able to wield spears and axes against you. If your opponents do posess metal, and consequently an invasion-worthy army (so they believe), the sooner you declare war, the sooner their metal army will march towards you on the open ground, like lambs to the slaughter. Your WCs will be numerous enough, and strong enough to take down any army they can throw against you, and capitolizing on that, plunge into their territory and sever their metal. Once the metal is gone, you begin the long siege of their empire, shutting down all expansion, production and science while your heavy city-raiders march down to bust open their strongholds.

The War-chariot is not a chariot, it is an Axeman on wheels (at 72% the price!). War-chariot rush = axe-rush, only quicker (and no city-raiders).

Now, back to cities, if I want to put my money where ym mouth is, I need to show you how to fund your campaign. There is the gold/gems/cows/horses site to the south, but if that's too far off for you, there is a very interesting location.

Location: To the west of your city, on a desert tile, NNE of the copper, and ESE of the plains-cow, is a very powerful location. 3 floodplains for food and cottages, copper for your metal supply, and cows for still further food and production. As the cottages mature, they can help to offset the costs of empire, and the Copper/Cow combo will be giving you a size 3 city that can put out 8 hammers/turn while maintaining a surplus of 3F. With this addition to your empire, you should be able to eliminate most resistance to your authority.

I didn't do any spoilers here did I? I hope not, and appologize if un-intended information leaked through. My espousal of WC rushes is not from this game alone, but from battles fought in the past as well.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

The first observation is that Hatty sucks as a warmonger. Secondly, Hatty doesn't support a larger empire very well. If you over expand, then maintainence will smother your economy until someone has a huge tech lead. I'd say that if nobody is close, then forget the WC rush. Second, make sure that you have a lot of workers. You need to start cottage spamming pronto. I have seen Hatty either big and clumsy or small and outnumbered. The first leads to getting carved up in a mass attack by all remaining powers, the second leads to getting bogged down in a war you can't win...

 

[Araqiel]

The first observation is that Hatty sucks as a warmonger. Secondly, Hatty doesn't support a larger empire very well. If you over expand, then maintainence will smother your economy until someone has a huge tech lead. I'd say that if nobody is close, then forget the WC rush. Second, make sure that you have a lot of workers. You need to start cottage spamming pronto. I have seen Hatty either big and clumsy or small and outnumbered. The first leads to getting carved up in a mass attack by all remaining powers, the second leads to getting bogged down in a war you can't win...

You've seen Hatty? I assume you mean Hatty played by the AI then right? Why should that have any bearing on anything?

By your logic only financial/organized should warmonger. Everyone else faces the same maintence costs or lack extra commerce early to pay for it. And clearly this isn't the case.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

You won't get bogged down with costs, since you're not out so much to forge an empire as you are to eliminate resistance. Raze every city you capture except the capitols, and anything which truly stands out. All you care about is being alone on the continent so that you face no resistance to your expansion. There is no worry, on this map, of being squished and stifled by encroaching opponents, since they are so far off. In fact, they are so far off that only war-chariots would be capable of fighting the battle at all. Conquest-money should be sufficient to pay for researching Code of Laws.

If you don't want to conquer the whole thing, you should at least kill Julius Caesar, since you know that Vicky and Izzy are going to be blood enemies.

 

[Araqiel]

In my haughty, arrogant oppinion, north was not the direction to settle in. I've always been a proponent of cities on the edge of the jungle, since they have so much future potential. When making choices in expansion, I always gravitate towards the warm, wet jungles and their opportunities for commerce rather than the drier temperate zones. [/i]

You might be right, but your reasoning is definitely off.

The main advantage of going for the southern horses first is not the "future" potential. You advocate conqueoring your continent before the A.D. times. So the future potential is irrelevant, you can raze every AI city you don't like and settle your land as you please.

What is valuable about going south is that its towards your opposition. So your roads to connect you cities point towards your enemies, and your units from those cities start out closer to the battlefield.

The value of going north is that you don't have tons of jungle choking you. Until you can put a ton of worker turns into cutting all that down the city will be much more limited than the northern sites, the north will require a lot less worker attention.

I can't say which is better, but I have a feeling its better for a builder to grab the northern horses first. That city will become more productive quickly and allow you to produce enough units to hold off barbs and early AI rushes. Meanwhile with the creative trait you can easily spam cities in the southern jungle and rely on your culture to grab up all the land you desire. Then you could get a horde of workers to plant all those cottages. But honestly either horse source will work just fine, mainly because your capital can produce the armies you need to take out your first target by itself.

 

[Sisiutil]

Hans, you mean the desert tile 1N of the plains hill, correct? I just went and checked, and you're right--three flood plains, including the one directly north of that tile, that doesn't look like a flood plain at first. 2 desert and 1 peak as well, but a lot of additional grasslands and river tiles to offset that. Interesting choice.

Let's suppose for a moment that I found that city there. With three cities, I think the following plan makes sense:

• Thebes and Memphis build WCs while Copper City builds barracks.
• After Pottery, research Iron Working.
• First WCs go after Caesar, steal Workers, ensure he has no metals.
• By the time Copper City finishes barracks, road should be connected to it for horses. Copper City starts building WCs.
• WCs head south. Cut off Vicky's and Izzy's metals, steal their workers.
• Thebes switches build to barracks. Memphis continues building WCs.
• Thebes finishes barracks. Switches to WCs.
• Memphis changes from WCs to Archers/Settlers for Gold city and Marble City.
• Thebes and Copper City alternate WCs with Axemen for city rushes.

On a related note--I hear you on the exploration pattern. That's what I usually do as well. Goody huts, though, are hard to pass up; they're what kept enticing my warrior further South. And I would have had more of the northeast and/or west explored by now, but my Scout kept having to retreat in the face of Lions to the east. (Deserts seem to spawn Lions like there's no tomorrow.) He spotted no less than four coming at him at one point, I kid you not. One attacked him and if I hadn't fortified him on a forested hill I don't think he would have survived.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

You've seen Hatty? I assume you mean Hatty played by the AI then right? Why should that have any bearing on anything?

That's from my observations. Battles where I should have won, were lost. A 75% chance to win doesn't play out that way (if you win half of those you are lucky). I've never seen any other leader get those poor results.

By your logic only financial/organized should warmonger. Everyone else faces the same maintence costs or lack extra commerce early to pay for it. And clearly this isn't the case.

Even they should procede with caution as anything drawing your units far away from your civ means that you'll get attacked by someone else. Sometimes two or three someone elses...

You won't get bogged down with costs, since you're not out so much to forge an empire as you are to eliminate resistance. Raze every city you capture except the capitols, and anything which truly stands out.

That only works when you know that other civs aren't going to come in and steal that land so you have to keep fighting for it--with fresh enemies each time!

 

[Keroberos]

Deleted, better addressed in a PM to Sisiutil.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Hans, you mean the desert tile 1N of the plains hill, correct? I just went and checked, and you're right--three flood plains, including the one directly north of that tile, that doesn't look like a flood plain at first. 2 desert and 1 peak as well, but a lot of additional grasslands and river tiles to offset that. Interesting choice.

If you want faster money and a position stronger in the long term (but possibly more expensive and harder to defend), then you probably want the Animal-Vegetable-Mineral site (cow/horse/gold/gems in a little hole in the jungle). You can mine the gold there right away for commerce and happiness, or you can pasture the cows and horses for productivity. When IW comes, the gems will be a godsend. This city location is of a higher priority than the double-gold site south of your Memphis. This horse-spot was my Memphis, and treated me well.

But given that you might want to keep your cities closer together, and that you already have Horses but no Copper, the Cow/Flood/Copper site might be the one for you.

Let's suppose for a moment that I found that city there. With three cities, I think the following plan makes sense:

• Thebes and Memphis build WCs while Copper City builds barracks.
• After Pottery, research Iron Working.
• First WCs go after Caesar, steal Workers, ensure he has no metals.
• By the time Copper City finishes barracks, road should be connected to it for horses. Copper City starts building WCs.
• WCs head south. Cut off Vicky's and Izzy's metals, steal their workers.
• Thebes switches build to barracks. Memphis continues building WCs.
• Thebes finishes barracks. Switches to WCs.
• Memphis changes from WCs to Archers/Settlers for Gold city and Marble City.
• Thebes and Copper City alternate WCs with Axemen for city rushes.

Looks like a good plan, except that I'd start on barracks sooner rather than later. You can send a few un-promoted WCs out as super-scouts, but their true power doesn't come out until they have Combat 1, and cross the line to become stronger than a Standard Archer fortified in a city (5.5 > 5.25 > 5.0). The chariots can pick up a few extra Exp. on animals and barbs on the way to their target, but it's best to bring them into the battle already combat-worthy.

On a related note--I hear you on the exploration pattern. That's what I usually do as well. Goody huts, though, are hard to pass up; they're what kept enticing my warrior further South. And I would have had more of the northeast and/or west explored by now, but my Scout kept having to retreat in the face of Lions to the east. (Deserts seem to spawn Lions like there's no tomorrow.) He spotted no less than four coming at him at one point, I kid you not. One attacked him and if I hadn't fortified him on a forested hill I don't think he would have survived.

Yeah, no plan survives contact with the enemy. I also got really rather lucky popping an extra scout, writing and masonry from the huts I found, so I probably had an easier time of it than you.
My warrior's path in the beginning of the game was to travel north of the river, then east some, circling just east of the mountains and then heading down south below the capitol, to a hut on a jungle-hill near the gems where he popped the scout.

 

[Araqiel]

That's from my observations. Battles where I should have won, were lost. A 75% chance to win doesn't play out that way (if you win half of those you are lucky). I've never seen any other leader get those poor results.



Even they should procede with caution as anything drawing your units far away from your civ means that you'll get attacked by someone else. Sometimes two or three someone elses...



That only works when you know that other civs aren't going to come in and steal that land so you have to keep fighting for it--with fresh enemies each time!

So basically you've been unlucky with Hatty and so that means she's a bad leader? Thats ridiculous. Such luck doesn't exist tied to leaders in this game, you had a bad game and it reinforced your pre-existing opinion is much more likely.

So basically you don't believe in warmongering from what I gather of your comments. And no you don't have to keep fighting people over it, its quite easy to raze and tie up enemies. When the send settlers to the jungle it just means their wasting hammers on making settlements you can easily gobble up.

 

[pigswill]

Having seen more of the map I'd say expansion not war to start with (but that's my general style anyway, I war once I've run out of room (or have a very close neighbour)). Expand east to copper then south into jungle then back-fill, make use of creative for early land grab and sealing borders. With a big and currently unsettled continent your chariots are likely to be busy suppressing barbarians so won't be wasted.(Think Catherine cottage spam)

 

[Araqiel]

Having seen more of the map I'd say expansion not war to start with (but that's my general style anyway, I war once I've run out of room (or have a very close neighbour)). Expand east to copper then south into jungle then back-fill, make use of creative for early land grab and sealing borders. With a big and currently unsettled continent your chariots are likely to be busy suppressing barbarians so won't be wasted.

I'd have to agree. Though there is something to be said for getting 5 chariots up and mauling Julius before he can start building up a ton of Praetorians. A Pillage fest would insure that he can't compete with you.

 

[drkodos]

I can't wait until we can drop some spoiler action in here.



Let me say this here publically: Great post and thread idea. This series has been fantastic.

 

[drkodos]

I'd have to agree. Though there is something to be said for getting 5 chariots up and mauling Julius before he can start building up a ton of Praetorians. A Pillage fest would insure that he can't compete with you.

Agreed. He is more an early threat than England is and he is significantly closer.

To the date in the last post by the OP, I beelined teched to BW, then went AH, chopped out the 2nd city and am aiming for IW. I grabbed hunting as well and sent out three scouts. Where I have my capital I have VERY GOOD production. BW reveals copper, remember and if IW give me iron close by, then I will have a very strong warring pimphand soon.


My 2nd city is taking advantange of the marble to the NE and my 3rd city plan is to go due W to take those floodplains for GP farming. I popped masonry on the hut so the marble made some sense to me. Will be building the Oracle (Going to try to get COL) in 2nd city and have pre-chopped the woods already for it. Then, my fourth city will probably be one of whatever enemy is closer, or maybe self expnad towards the jungles and some gems. Will raze a few of their secondary citries and then capture a capital.


My aim is to do this around 500 BC so that they will have a wonder built in it. No sense in capturing it while they have it half built, now is there.

I am waiting until after a war to settle a city on those gold deposits, or perhaps allow another civ to do so, mine the metals, and THEN capture it.


On another front: This game has given me the confidence needed to get at the latest GOTM, which I need to get started on soon, but this seems like less pressure and is a lot of fun so is hard to quit.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Waiting to war until you run out of room means you don't get to utilize war-chariots, and pits you against fully developed opponents in a long and coslty war. You lose-out on the early wonders, true, but being able to run-rampant on a pole-spanning continent.

In my shadow-game, my war lasted from 1600 to 200BC, which translates to 31 turns. I built 26 war chariots, and 7 swordsmen, losing 15 and 3 in its course.

I have never before conquered a continent for such a low price (930 hammers over 40 turns, 510 of which died), or so quickly (10 turns prep, 31 turns war). And I did this without chopping a single tree.

 

[pigswill]

Hans Lemurson:you've raised some good points. While I've largely overcome wonder addiction (except Oracle/CoL,Prophet/CS).I'm still more of a builder than a war-monger. Delaying war means that wars last longer and are more expensive but also means the AI does more tile-improvement and city-building for you.

 

[drkodos]

And I did this without chopping a single tree.

Normal development of forrested grass ends up choping trees as does developing plantations and bananas and several other improvements. It is a part of the game whether one wants it to be or not, in my opinion.

The AI "chops" by developing tiles in the above fashion.

Chopping has been so reduced in the patch, it can sometimes be a bad idea anyway because of long term production loss. As it is, I tend to only chop tiles that I would develop without the trees anyway. I think I chopped TWO forrest to get Oracle and then put cottages there. Anytime a cottage goes onto a forrested grassland, chopping takes place.

I like chopping. Fun to micromanage multiple chops and get full measure of production que from it (Thanks Zombie69). Now if only I could get better efficiency with my workers I would be ready to level up again.

 

[erikg88]

To Sis and all the other people contribuing to this thread: Thank you. This is truly the best Civ Fanatics has to offer, and hearing everyone weighing in with all these great strategies is awesome. I hope to see more soon!

 

[Hans Lemurson]

And I did this without chopping a single tree.

Normal development of forrested grass ends up choping trees as does developing plantations and bananas and several other improvements. It is a part of the game whether one wants it to be or not, in my opinion...

...I like chopping. Fun to micromanage multiple chops and get full measure of production que from it (Thanks Zombie69). Now if only I could get better efficiency with my workers I would be ready to level up again.

The point was not that chopping is bad, but that the industrial capacity was so great that it was un-necessary for the war effort. Besides, I've always been a tree-hugger in Civ4, not chopping them unless there really is a better build option there (or they are on a hill). My cities begin to soar mid-game when my hours of dotmapping finally come into fruition, and all those forests I saved create industrial giants. If I really need cottages, or if chain-irrigation needs to go through, then I might chop, but I really tend to stay away from that sort of thing.
I my forests!

Speaking about spending hours dotmapping though, I just finished mapping out 17 city locations to fill out the rest of the continent ('cept for the icky icy parts). When the time comes, I might share my grand plan with you, but I suspect differing initial conditions might require a somewhat altered solution.