ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

pigswill said:
The good thing about this game and this thread is that it's starting to encapsulate the whole warrior/builder debate. I'm obviously on the builder side (use war to expand) and it seems Hans is on the warrior side (expand to war better).
On more careful reading of Hans's last post the difference is he advocates non-stop war followed by non-stop peace while I go war stages and peace stages with the same eventual goal.
The problem was/is that before COL came in, and before the commerce of the Egyptian empire came online he couldn't expand effectively. So not attacking Victoria is more costly than normal because she'd be able to grab a lot more land than the AI usually gets in such a land grab race.

Furthermore once that occurs Sisuitil will likely be in for a short term technology disadvantage. So now his War Chariots are obsolete and he'll need to play catch up militarily before he can take Victoria down.

If he had CoL earlier or wasn't so strapped for commerce I think building and then trading (though you can't trade much with only one contact you need 3 partners to do it most efficiently) is a fine alternative. But right now he's invested a LOT of hammers to build and army and he isn't making very much money. That means at the very least a limited war of pillaging/harrassment is the best move.
 
Very neat, although I wouldn't go for Optics after Currency, I'd focus on Internal Development (and as soon as Vicky's dead forget about the Slider... spam Settlers as fast as possible... as the Cottages come out they will balance out)

Next three techs should be
Currency
Literature
Calendar

Then at this point make that choice... Cultural/Space Race/Domination

Cultural is Drama, Philosophy, Theology, Music, Liberalism, Divine Right (skip the lower path and make Musketeers your next most advanced unit.) and then Democracy

Space Race is Philosophy, Education, Liberalism, (again Skip the lower path)

Domination is Optics, Civil Service, Astronomy, Guilds, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Steel
 
Killroyan, I really appreciate a voice of dissension. In a game as complicated as Civ, it's important to consider all your options.

But I think those urging me to finish of Vicky are correct. The Swordsmen were very effective at taking down a minor city like Canterbury without Cats. Vicky had managed to reinforce the city with a Spearman and a chariot. I only lost one Sword, and the other two earned their CR II promotions in the attack. I have more Swords on the way, plus Cats, plus Elephants. She has not been able to regain her copper resource, and her horse pasture should, I hope, get pillaged on the next turn, so no more Chariots or Horse Archers either. She'll be able to build nothing but Archers.

So it isn't just Hans' point about using a military force once you've built it; it's also about making the most of an advantage you've created for yourself. The AI is not completely stupid. If I make peace with Vicky for 10 turns, she'll get her copper and horses back on-line lickety-split and build Spearmen and Axemen to counter my WCs and Swords. I've destroyed most of those units and denied her the ability to make more. The time to strike is now.

When she offered be Sailing for peace, I tried swapping every other tech she had. That was the only one she was willing to give up. At this point, her other techs are getting cheaper for me. Once I expand and cottage spam, techs will get even cheaper.

I like Eggolas' suggestion of running Caste System for awhile. I forget sometimes that it's easy for me to switch Civics. Running some merchants and scientists would be very handy right now.

Araqiel makes some very good points, but there are some hindsight lessons to be learned there. I think I've mentioned them already, but they're worth repeating. I should have researched Pottery earlier and had my workers spamming cottages earlier. I should have prioritized Code of Laws over Alphabet. I also probably should have gotten one city building the Oracle while the others built military units.

Things to remember for the next time I have an early UU and go warring right away. Greece, Inca, Mali, and Persia all fall into that category.
 
Inca, Mali and Persia certainly fall into that category. I don't know about Greece, however. Phalanx don't seem all that much better than Spearmen. Given the relative ease of countering both units, I think Jaguars are better for their no resource requirement.
 
I don't want to go counting chickens, but I'm giving Krikkitone's post on pursuing victory conditions some thought. Once England is dispatched, it makes sense to make a choice and start to prioritize.

I'll want to expand, of course, and settling the coastline at first makes sense in order to prevent later encroachment. I'll also need to shift my focus from military to research and the economy. Cottage spam, shrine(s), spreading religion, Great People, Wonders...all that builder stuff.

I'm leaning towards cultural, if only to be different. The ALCs have thus far featured one domination win and two space race. We've talked about doing cultural for two games with no luck; now, with an entire continent nearly in my grasp, seems like the time to go after it. I feel like the delays I've incurred may put domination out of reach, but I could be wrong.

So...what is everyone's take on the feasibility and desireability of a cultural win? Would the three holy cities (Madrid, Memphis, and London) be the logical candidates for Legendary status? Does Krikkitone's tech path make sense for it? What other yet-unfounded cities become priorities?
 
If you're looking at culture victory and you're looking at culture slider/towns then look at the jungle spots for max commercial potential. Other stuff can be built but you can't build terrain.
Still a long way to go and I've hardly encouraged your military foray but it would indeed be worse to abandon it at this point.
 
Sisiutil said:
So...what is everyone's take on the feasibility and desireability of a cultural win? Would the three holy cities (Madrid, Memphis, and London) be the logical candidates for Legendary status? Does Krikkitone's tech path make sense for it? What other yet-unfounded cities become priorities?

It's definitely feasible. With 3 holy cities, you can obviously have at least 3 religions in every city. Maybe more (are there any left to found?). You clearly have plenty of territory to build the 9 cities you need to get all possible cathedrals built in each city. You're also spiritual, so you get cheap temples, which is always nice.

The big risk with a cultural win is always whether you're going to get jumped while your military stagnates and you build culture. For that reason, I always like being on a continent by myself if I can manage it. Guess what, you've got that.

I don't think shrine income turns into culture. It's gold, not commerce. You want your culture cities to have lots of cottages. If those happen to also be the holy cities, then great, but I don't think there's any reason to prefer the holy cities just for the fact that they're holy.
 
Cultural is definite possibility. Those holy cities all have a good production capability, I believe and you've got 3 religions. Just fill the prerequisites for cathedrals and whatnot.

And after taking out Vicky, don't bother overmuch with military or filling the coastline. The other civs still out there won't be able to send troops or settlers at you until astronomy and that is still way off (hopefully) for them.
 
Of the four later religions, only Confucianism has been founded, so Taoism, Christianity, and Islam still remain. I'd like to think I can get at least one of them.

I'm working on the mother of all dotmaps (slow day at work). I'll post it later.
 
One of the ideas I've been toying with (but haven't actually tested in a game)is that when you're going for a culture win based on commerce slider in the final run-in when you're running 100% culture it makes sense to convert all cities except your 3 culture ones to farms and run a specialist economy to maintain some research and income (representation, caste system).
 
pigswill said:
One of the ideas I've been toying with (but haven't actually tested in a game)is that when you're going for a culture win based on commerce slider in the final run-in when you're running 100% culture it makes sense to convert all cities except your 3 culture ones to farms and run a specialist economy to maintain some research and income (representation, caste system).


Wouldn't hurt to keep a few top production cities keeping your military up to date as well. Then, as you suggest, convert the majority of commerce cities to specialist cities for income and research, and work the legendary cities as you normally would.

stuge said:
The other civs still out there won't be able to send troops or settlers at you until astronomy and that is still way off (hopefully) for them.

Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure about Astronomy being all that far off. If expansion is made a priority after the war concludes, I'd hazard to say that at least one civ should show up around the time the last worthwhile city is founded. That's if expansion is made a priority, and kept a priority for awhile.

Keep in mind that it's not BC here. It's well into the ADs. Sisituil is just ages behind in everything. Vicky's only so far behind because her surrounding terrain sucks (Tundra), and she's hemmed in by more poor terrain(Desert).
 
A new dotmap based upon the suggestions from this thread, especially from Hans. Established cities in yellow, new ones yet to be built in cyan:

ALC-HattyDotMap2a.jpg


ALC-HattyDotMap2b.jpg


That's a LOT of new cities to build--I counted 24 (!), and there's still room for more down on the southern tundra if it's justified by a resource I can't see, or to just prevent later AI encroachment.

Formerly, I did not employ dotmapping in my games, but now I can't do without it. In a situation like this, where I don't have to worry about another AI's borders or settlers rushing in if I raze a city, it's very instructive. Just look at how much better New York (heh) will be just one tile east (site Z): it trades two desert tiles for 1 grassland and one tundra, keeps the cows, wine, and stone, and picks up the horses too. That's going to be a very good city even with a couple of tundra tiles in its fat cross.

The letter's don't necessarily respond to priority order, though I suspect that was Hans' original purpose in assigning them. Site A is definitely next--several people are pushing for it, and I agree. After that I'm thinking E for the marble for the Great Library, then the coast and the equatorial jungle. Lots of barbs are spawning from the east coast in particular, so I'd like to get that settled soon. So after A and E, I'll build (in loose order) N, M, I, B, and L, then inland cities like C, J, Y, H, and Z.

Tundra and desert sites like S, X, R, P, U, V, and W are much lower priorities, though they may get rushed once the other civs show up AND have Astronomy for Galleons full of Settlers. Or if I need the happiness resources like silver.

If anyone wants to fine-tune the city placement and/or build order, feel free. I'm certain I haven't taken as much of the now-desired cultural victory condition as I could.

On a different note--Nares, I'm not so sure I'm as terribly far behind as you think, mainly because of the surprising lack of announcements about the unknown AIs. Three religions still haven't been founded, and many ancient Wonders (including the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus, the Hanging Gardens, Chichen Itza, and the Parthenon) haven't been built. I am behind where I'm used to being in most other games, but relative to the AIs, I'm not yet convinced that I'm that deeply in the hole. I could be wrong, but we'll see.
 
If you are going cultural....

OK, you've got religions. You've got cities, so Cathedrals aren't going to be an issue. I wonder if you should be looking your distribution of cottages....

In other words - if the culture is going to come from chucking the commerce slider to maximum, you may want to promote those city locations that can run 20 cottages, rather than trying to make do with the cottages available at your best cities now. If so, those green cities (I, C, Vandal) might be your best bet... provided they don't overlap each other, and have enough food in hand.

Having other cities overlap the big three is probably OK, as the lesser cities can help work shared cottages (until it is time to transfer control completely to the primary).

It may prove faster to use the production cities that are kicking out wonders, or the GP farm running artists.

It's also not clear to me what your lesser cities start doing once you change over. Farm them and run specialists, so that you can continue researching and paying for everything?

If (C) is going to be one of those mega commerce cities, maybe it belongs one tile further west, so that it doesn't overlap Vandal?
 
VoiceOfUnreason said:
Having other cities overlap the big three is probably OK, as the lesser cities can help work shared cottages (until it is time to transfer control completely to the primary).

Definitely. There's an article in the strategy guide forum about cultural wins on diety. One of the points he makes is that after the main 3, the other cities can be completely useless cities (at least theoretically). Their only purpose is to be a place where you can rush build a temple. Anything else is gravy.

Now in this case, with a whole continent worth of territory and room for some 24 cities, you don't need to accept that, but if there's some good reason to sacrifice a little quality in the second tier cities, that shouldn't have any kind of negative impact on the cutural win.

It's also not clear to me what your lesser cities start doing once you change over. Farm them and run specialists, so that you can continue researching and paying for everything?

I usually just have them spew out an endless stream of military units so I can keep my power rating out of the tragically bad range and just in the piss poor region. pigswill's idea about switching to farms sounds like a good one, though I don't have a good intuitive feel for how well that will work in practice.

Given a typical number of workers, how long will it take them to switch all the cottages to farms? Given a typical size empire with typical city populations, how many scientists will you be able to run, and how much science will they produce? Someone with good World Editor skills could probably take an old save and figure it out fairly easily.
 
Let me begin with a quick note on Site A. I placed it 1NE of your proposed location. It still has coastal access, and it picks up the Copper Mine, which will be a huge boost to production. I believe that's Heliopolis that you currently have working it. At the very least, you could switch off which city worked it in order to build structures in the other (or assist in building them, at any rate). Ideally, you could whip most (if any) production in Heliopolis (I doubt it needs more than a Courthouse, Library and Market), and then assign the Copper to Site A. Personal experience showed it to be a more desirable city overall. Better commerce, thanks to the Gem Mine, better production, thanks to the Horses and the Copper Mine, and almost entirely Grassland tiles other than the coast/ocean.

Sisiutil said:
On a different note--Nares, I'm not so sure I'm as terribly far behind as you think, mainly because of the surprising lack of announcements about the unknown AIs. Three religions still haven't been founded, and many ancient Wonders (including the Great Lighthouse, the Colossus, the Hanging Gardens, Chichen Itza, and the Parthenon) haven't been built. I am behind where I'm used to being in most other games, but relative to the AIs, I'm not yet convinced that I'm that deeply in the hole. I could be wrong, but we'll see.

EDIT: Borderline spoiler information removed.

My point being, the other continent seems to be as slow as yours. Wonder-wise, I saw the Great Lighthouse get built roughly on the turn you're on now. Other wonders were similarly delayed (aside from the Hanging Gardens, which seemed fairly appropriately built, by Victoria no less).

My gut reaction, given how many religions remain (in particular that you founded Confuscianism so late), and how slow wonders are being built, is that the other continent has at least one warmongering AI, perhaps two.

That's a good thing for you, to be honest. It means picking sides will be very easy, and you should get more out of the friend you choose.

But, you are very far behind. You could conceivably pull your economy out of the pisser, halt expansion, and pursue research. However, you're going to expand, which means flatlining your current research rate, if not reducing it. You don't really have a choice in the expansion.

Added to this is that many of your next planned cities are buried in the deep Jungle. This means low production for them, and a great number of worker turns per city just to get them growing (due to the Unhealthiness of Jungles). Presumably, the majority of them are intended to be commerce cities. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's likely going to take the majority of them ages to build infrastructure, even once you have dug them out. And when I say ages, I mean ages. To the point where you may even want to consider Farming them as much as you can, whipping out a Forge, a Granary, then a Courthouse, and then whatever else you'll need, then Cottaging.
 
First off, you're at war with England, she won't give you anything worthwhile to go away, so terminate with extreme prejudice.

Second, I like the idea of quarantining your continent. Give them no opportunities to sneak a city on your continent. From there, Get the three cities on the go culturally, but then get the techs for the Space race. It might be interesting to see which you hit first...
 
Round 8: to 1200 AD

So I wish I could report that Vicky is no more...but, alas, there was a complication.

I finished researching Currency and then moved on to Polytheism and Literature. Meanwhile, my units built in the north had something to keep them busy on the trip south:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_01.jpg


One of several barb cities that have popped up. Good for XPs, but they slowed me down a little. I razed this one and another one just south of it, then moved the newly-experienced units (Swordsmen and a War Elephant) on to the long road south to England.

As they were in transit, several units I had waiting outside of York moved in once my first catapults joined them. I didn't face much opposition--just two fortified Archers, though one had CG II. The Swordsmen did an admirable job; I only lost one of them. I probably could have preserved him, but I was more concerned about preserving more of my catapults for the assault on London.

ALC-Hatty1200AD_02.jpg


But this was when the complication reared its ugly head.

Remember I said the AI is not completely dense? Vicky was throwing Horse Archers at me now. I started countering with Spearmen, who are darn effective against them, I gotta say. So Vicky went shopping on the tech tree for a good counter unit to the mixed forces I was now bringing to bear. So guess what she did?

She bee-lined to Feudalism.

ALC-Hatty1200AD_03.jpg


Well, crud. Longbowmen. Scads of 'em. I hate it when these guys start showing up in the AI's cities. Of course, I'd kind of backed Vicky into a corner; I'd pillaged both her copper and her horses (though she probably got the latter hooked up again--she killed the Axe and Archer that had gone in to pull off that mission). So what did she have left? Archery units. Why not go after the best one available?

This caused a further delay, as I now had to bring everything I had down for the assault on London.

At the same time, I was starting to implement my plan of slow but steady expansion:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_04.jpg


Good suggestion, Nares. Yes, that's ANOTHER barb city to its south. First thing I built in Alexandria was a wall. The barb cities will have to wait until after Vicky is dealt with.

I won't post as much detail about the assault on London as I did about Madrid. It was a pretty standard takedown of a Civ IV city and the UU is becoming less of a factor. Catapults first stripped the city's defenses to 0%, then all but one of them suicided for the collateral damage. Then it was the best city raiders' turn: Swordsmen against Longbowmen. Not really a fair fight, especially since London is on a hill and Cats ain't gonna change that. But once again, the Swords really came through. I think I only lost one, and most of them won against long odds in the 50% to 65% range. I was fully expecting to have to throw all my WCs at the remaining units, but as it turned out, four of them did not have to attack any units inside London at all.

ALC-Hatty1200AD_05.jpg


The problem, however, was that I had just taken a city that Victoria would desperately want back, and only had five War Chariots in there to defend it for the first turn. The WCs have been great, but they're not exactly the best city defenders around. And yes, as you can see, Victoria did have a Horse Archer right outside the city, ready to attack, and could have thrown units from Hastings and Nottingham at me as well. Even on the following turn, when I moved the rest of my stack into London, most of those units were badly weakened from the assault.

Hmmmm...what to do?

ALC-Hatty1200AD_06.jpg


Well, if you're going to throw in two techs and some change, okay. Especially since Metal Casting leads to Machinery, and with Civil Service, that will give me...uh...never mind. Let's just shake hands and take a breather... (before we take this up again).

So I had a few turns to do a little building. Some good news occurred along the way.

ALC-Hatty1200AD_07.jpg


Oh, that's gonna help. I still can't push the slider any higher than 40% most turns without going into a deficit. Fortunately, I had lots of war botty to fund my pointy-stick research.

I should note that winning the GL was the result of crazed chopping on my part around Vandal. I got news that the Hanging Gardens, the Parthenon, and the Great Lighthouse had been built, and that Christianity had been founded--so there's another civ out there finally giving me a run for my what little money I have. Plus I wanted to get the GL's boost going ASAP.

I also managed to pull off another first:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_12.jpg


Yep, I finished Music before anyone else. Free Great Artist! Very helpful for the cultural win we're talking about. I was tempted to use him in London to expand its borders, but decided to put him to sleep in Thebes until the end game. London will just have to starve itself down to five pop while it waits for the rest of England to fall. I should probably start building Notre Dame before too long. Nova Roma, with its stone quarry, may become the next city in line on the slow-but-steady expansion queue.

Here's the power graph for the last 50 turns:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_08.jpg


You can see exactly when Vicky got Longbowmen, and when London fell. I am producing Cats and moving them to London right now in anticipation of the peace treaty expiring and the final assault on England's remaining three cities.

Three? Yup.

One:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_09.jpg


Two:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_10.jpg


And, uh, three:

ALC-Hatty1200AD_11.jpg


Sneaky and tenacious, those AIs. I'm building a trio of Spearmen in Madrid to help take it down.

This is one tough slog, kids. I'm still paying for my ambition (or is it hubris?) to own the continent so early. I may not need Macemen to finish Vicky off, but I'm heading in that direction anyway, just in case. If it wasn't for war booty, my research would be even worse than it is. I've spammed cottages and I'm building courthouses and markets but it's still way below what I'm used to at this stage in the game. During the next round, Vicky and the barbs die. I'm getting tired of putting up with them and the drag they put on my economy.

And I'm looking forward to playing as Mansa. Spiritual, an early UU...and he's financial. I'm really missing that trait right now.
 
Sisutil said:
London will just have to starve itself down to five pop while it waits for the rest of England to fall.

An idea I had. You are in Caste System anyway. London is starving, and as long as it is starving will lose 1 pop per turn. So it doesn't actually need any food, right? You could just run artists until the city starves down to size (or forces Englands borders back?)

It's a variation on an idea I had a while back, but I haven't actually tried it.

Future planning: with the great library, and presumably an Academy, coming in Vandal, that city might end up getting pulled from the three cultural cities (if it ever were on that list), because it may be more useful to run research there.

Um, shouldn't you be building the National Epic somewhere?

You need to get a scout down to the silver mines. If there's food in the water down there, you'll want to settle (2x happy, plus commerce, maybe some watermills depending on where the city goes).

I'd be using the loose workboat to bust fog at Nova Roma. It would really suck to send a settler over there, only to find a Barb City waiting. (I'd probably be building that settler right now too, somewhere in the north).

What's with all the roads? I'd be improving farms at Vandal, so that city can get up to the happy limit.
 
Well I have to say this one of the biggest lands I have seen yet to be owned so quickly so good job on that. I didn't have the luxury of playing a shadow game nor could I really see how much army you had left, that is why I thought about a little recap in your warmongering time. But as it seemed you had more then enough units left. I pause my warmongering every time I conquer a civ to get the empire going a little more. Interesting strategy to take down everybody so quickly. The pillaging of resources is something I always forget but is so damn valuable. Learning something new every day.

Cultural victory with some religions would be a nice twist. Keeping the artist is then a good choice but since you need 3 good culture cities which are you going to choose? Thebes, Madrid, Barcelona and London (I think the first 3 are the best) are some good choices from what I can see. Barcelona can run his share of specialists without problems. But then again you have a city with the great library so it could be that you will build more wonders in that city.
 
On reflection I'm not sure culture is going to be your best victory, you've got the religions and you've almost got the continent but you haven't really got the infrastructure yet. With a big continent to yourself you're well on the way to a domination victory or depending on who else is around you could perhaps go for diplomacy.
Have you built forbidden palace yet?
It's certainly a different kind of game.
 
Back
Top Bottom