ALC Game #5 Pre-Game Show: playing as Victoria

[ArmoredCavalry]

I must say this is bold. very very bold. just 2 things from me

1. you need sailing for the compass and for the calender
2. engineering will get you that +1 road movement, faster armies are more useful. I say prioritize this after replacable parts.

 

[Betafor]

A couple points-

don't you have to have polytheism before you can GP rush the others?

strategy relies a lot on getting lucky... I can see you getting the oracle, but by the time you get a second GP it'll be cheaper to just research CS unless you want to spend those research points on some other prerequisite, would alternativly suggest using oracle on CoL then GP CS, and researching metal casting as is.

agriculture for farms? This may just be my personal style, but i find in some games you can skip this unless u need it as a prerequisite b/c of your food giving recources (again, it's hard to say w/o ur starting map). If you do end of skipping this and don't need it as a prerequisite, it would probably be for soemthing like animal husbandry, focusing on your recources.

 

[Mutineer]

Actially if you want to try to use Vicy strats to the most will be to change your opinion when cheap granaries matter.

Cheap granaries (30 shield on normal speed = 1 population to whipe on all speeds). What does that mean?
1). That mean that you can whipe your granary on city size 2 and after that it will grow with a speed of ligth to max population.

2). Second it mean that your cities with early granaries can be used to mass whipe you early army.

So, Proper Victoria strategy would be setler spawn as fast as posible trying to claim all resource reach sites, improving mostly only special ties.
And when you can not expand peacefull any longer whipe yourself instant army and go and take over your opponents.

Note that with health bonus you can claim any jungle/foodplance cites with out warrying mach about health.

You will need to research pottery and col to support your groving empire.

Then, when you whiped everyone near you you can start to cottage spawn your cities.

On this easy level you can win by domination even faster then you did with hatty.

 

[Sisiutil]

VERY perceptive suggestions, Mutineer. Thank you!

Betafor, I think you're right about Polytheism. Of course, in other games, I've just put the GP to sleep until I have the techs required for him to give me what I want. And building some libraries and the Great Library would help me research Metal Casting and Machinery faster on their own. If I expand quickly, a CoL slingshot may make more sense. I also think Iron Working deserves a bump from optional to secondary because of the excellent production yeild of those tiles.

And I thought I might be missing some things on the tech tree; thanks guys. Based upon your responses, here is a revised research list to bee-line to Redcoats:

Primary techs:

• Bronze Working for chopping to expand quickly, and to find copper for Axemen
• Pottery for cottages
• The Wheel to link everything up
• Mysticism for Stonehenge
• Meditation, then Priesthood for Oracle (built in same city as 'henge for GP points)
• Writing
• Oracle's free tech: Code of Laws for courthouses
• Alphabet (tech trade for missed techs)
• Polytheism
• Pop first Great Prophet for Civil Service (Macemen for protection)
• Literature (Build the Great Library in a non-SH/Oracle commerce city)
• Metal Casting
• Machinery
• Mathematics
• Currency
• Guilds
• Banking
• Pop first Great Scientist for Philosophy
• Paper
• Education
• Liberalism; free tech: Printing Press
• Gunpowder
• Replaceable Parts
• Rifling and REDCOATS

Secondary techs:

• Agriculture for farms
• Animal Husbandry for relevant resources (including horses for Chariots for early defense)
• Monarchy for Hereditary Rule
• Sailing for Calendar and Compass
• Iron Working for additional metal sources, production
• Calendar for trade/luxury resources
• Compass for Harbour, one of Victoria's cheap buildings, and its additional trade routes
• Construction for Catapults
• Engineering for road movement

Optional techs:

• Hunting
• Archery
• Masonry
• Monotheism
• Horseback Riding
• Optics
• Drama
• Music
• Feudalism
• Theology
• Divine Right
• Military Tradition
• Nationalism
• Constitution
• Economics

I'm not saying I'm committed to this, I'm just putting it out as a discussion point. Much of this may have to change in response to location, city sites, and what the AI civs are up to. If nothing else, it certainly guides me in prioritizing techs to research or to obtain through trades.

I could see myself producing a similar research plan for any non-early UU, especially Cossacks.

 

[Nares]

Pop first Great Scientist for Philosophy

GS for Academy. Religion will spread to you. You probably don't need the shrine, though it doesn't hurt. Besides Academy + Beauracracy, even if it means moving your Palace to the best Cottage spam and/or otherwise commerce producing city (say, Cottage spam + double Gold Mines, or Jungle Gold Mines on a river....mmmm, 9 commerce producing tiles).

And btw, CoL is always cheaper to research than Metal Casting. Even if you still want to use the GP on CS, CoL is still, and always will be, cheaper to research than Metal Casting. Don't react too much to the last game. The problem was researching Alphabet instead of CoL; the problem was not failing to build The Oracle to research CoL with so that you could research Alphabet in its place.

Besides, Metal Casting would be a great addition to this. Whip out the Granaries, whip the Forges, then get double your population (or thereabouts) on every whip thereafter.

 

[Sisiutil]

GS for Academy. Religion will spread to you. You probably don't need the shrine, though it doesn't hurt. Besides Academy + Beauracracy, even if it means moving your Palace to the best Cottage spam and/or otherwise commerce producing city (say, Cottage spam + double Gold Mines, or Jungle Gold Mines on a river....mmmm, 9 commerce producing tiles).

And btw, CoL is always cheaper to research than Metal Casting. Even if you still want to use the GP on CS, CoL is still, and always will be, cheaper to research than Metal Casting. Don't react too much to the last game. The problem was researching Alphabet instead of CoL; the problem was not failing to build The Oracle to research CoL with so that you could research Alphabet in its place.

Besides, Metal Casting would be a great addition to this. Whip out the Granaries, whip the Forges, then get double your population (or thereabouts) on every whip thereafter.

Well, I was thinking of popping Philosophy more because it's on the path to Liberalism; founding Taoism is a side benefit in my book. The second GS would build the Academy. But then again, I could see how the Academy/Bureaucracy/GL boost would amount to the same savings on research turns over time. Hmmm...

CoL cheaper than Metal Casting? Okay...but again, I'm thinking of the benefit of obtaining Courthouses early, especially since Vicky isn't Organized and they're not cheap. I think the cost savings from having Courthouses would allow me to raise the research slider sooner and make up the difference.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

CoL cheaper than Metal Casting? Okay...but again, I'm thinking of the benefit of obtaining Courthouses early, especially since Vicky isn't Organized and they're not cheap. I think the cost savings from having Courthouses would allow me to raise the research slider sooner and make up the difference.

He does have a good point about the forges though. As you mentioned in your opening remarks, one of the reasons expansionist is underestimated is that many of its benefits are indirect. For example, you can more easily afford the health ding from a forge and put them all over the place. After you have forges and granaries everywhere, each lash from your whip gives you 37 hammers instead of 30 and for only half the food in your silo.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One slight side point, Civil Service doesn't allow Macemen
Civil Service AND Machinery Allows Macemen (so you get protected when Machinery is discovered)

Also you need Feudalism for Guilds (Just revise your path to have Monarchy, Feudalism, Guilds, Banking, Replaceable Parts Right after Liberalism+Printing Press)

In therms of pure Research saved, Education is a better use of a GSci than Philosophy (although the Taoism would be nice) [and if you get Paper they will prioritize Education over Philosophy]

And the Wheel must come Before Pottery

There are very few truly misable parts of the tech tree, they include...
Alphabet branch (Alphabet, Literature, Drama, Music, Military Tradition)
Monotheism Branch (Monotheism, Theology, Divine Right)

If you want Construction (required for Engineering) you need to get Masonry(which is safe to get after you have Prophet Rushed.)

I'd personally favor the CoL for two reasons,
1. probable free religion
2. Earlier Bureaucracy (get it with first prophet which will be something like 15 to 20 turns after Oracle)
That boost can help with more things than Metal Casting (Forges are expensive)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The question I would ask (especially if you are looking at redcoat beeline variations) is: how is your research path different from the one you would use as Elizabeth? Are you just playing Ebet, but with the handicap of not being Philosophical?

 

[pigswill]

Financial is straightforward, expansive less so. Maybe instead of rex you go for staged wars/territorial growth:-War 1 Axes and 8 cities;war 2 maces/cats and 12 cities;wait for redcoats and clear continent. Expansive should allow you to have bigger cities than usual; HR sounds shortcut for happiness. 8 pop 10 cities gves you same prod/commerce as 11 pop 7 and requires fewer markets/libraries/courthouses etc.
I'm a bit surprised that redcoats should be dominating the thread. A very good UU but not as good as vanilla infantry. Stuff about slingshots, popping great people etc sounds as if people are saying 'how do you play Vicky like Lizzy' rather than how do you play her differently. You talk about trying new things and getting out of your comfort zone; I haven't seen much evidence of that so far. Fair 'nuff, its your game (but I am slightly disappointed).
Edit: on a more constructive note: victories you haven't gone for yet: conquest,diplomacy, culture. Redcoats come late for a conquest victory (tho' not too late). Culture is an option if you start with a smallish continent/friendly neighbours in which case redcoats become useful as your principal defenders when you abandon research. Diplomacy: big population (expansive),go for early exploration(caravels),financial=techs= selective tech trading to make friends.

 

[Eqqman]

I can use a thimble to fill my Civ IV knowledge, but why is Guilds on your list of priority techs? At first blush I would guess that you wanted it to open up Gunpowder, however, Gunpowder will also be opened up by the Education that you were required to get for the Liberalism bonus. Also, aren't you required to get Feudalism for Guilds? You left that off the priority list.

You can skip both these techs if you are totally dedicated to the Rifleman beeline, but obviously you run the risk of having weaker units in a Medieval era war since I've noticed every AI player will grab both of these. I would expect you'd try to fight one or more early era wars to secure your needed space for growth and try to spend the Medieval era in peace and quiet, not fighting anybody until the Redcoats are coming (with apologies to Messr. Paul Revere).

Or you might be wanting it for the Grocer and Banking, but Expansive makes the Grocer less of an issue and you can get around needing Bank improvements. I've been experimenting with using Great Merchants in lieu of Great Scientists. With the Merchants I can keep my science slider at 100% the whole game and be at the same tech stage I would be running 50% science with Great Scientists. But with having to reduce my slider I'm typically always broke instead of still earning both science and money. Especially if you don't manage to found a religion the Merchants help make up for the Holy Shrine income you won't be collecting. If you really need Guilds/Banking, you can easily trade for them later with the advanced techs you're acquiring. Preferably from your first victim.

 

[voek]

I don't want to be critical, but i notice in a lot of games you tend to rely on the Oracle. Well, it is a good wonder, but i think you build it since ... well you can. I dont want to debate if you should move up in difficulty. That has been brought up to many times. But i would like to point out the Oracle isn't an option on (most) higher levels. So dont make it your 'standard' strategy for your own growing development. It should depend on the map (marble) and trait (industrious). Planning your research path is more viable.

Although it depends on the map, i would like to mention when you are REX'ing with financial it is a good idea to take the crtical land spots first and then fill the coast spots asap. The latter pay for themselves. So if you are provided with lots of coasts, i would expand to your neighbours (thumb rule) and then quickly settle the coast and build colossus (and maybe great lighthouse).

And did someone mentioned whipping....

 

[Sisiutil]

Eggman, good catch on Feudalism/Guilds--I misread the tech tree. Sometimes the Civ IV alternative paths to later techs get a little confusing. That certainly simplifies and streamlines things.

Voek, I don't know if I "rely" on the Oracle as much as I take advantage of the fact that I can usually build it. In the last game I didn't build it and did all right. As several people pointed out, my mistake in that game that delayed the eventual win was prioritizing Alphabet over Code of Laws. Oracle certainly makes CoL easier to obtain, but it's worthwhile even if I lose the Oracle race, which happens to me on occassion and I'm sure is bound to happen in one of the ALC games.

VoU, a very relevant point, but honestly no, I have never tried to streamline a tech path to a mid-game UU like this, not even playing as Elizabeth. I sympathized with your tech path in your Lessons on Epic game because I tend to wander around the tech tree myself until I get close to a worthwhile bee-line.

A key difference between this and a Liz game will be leveraging Mutineer's suggested tactic of whipping Expansive's cheap granaries, which in turn provide more pop for the whip for units and, later, forges. I actually tried the early part of this tech path in a few turns tonight playing as Elizabeth--a warm-up match, if you will--and while her Philosophical trait got me the GP I needed, it was much harder to use the whip since I'd need 4 pop in a city before I can whip a granary immediately. As Vicky, I can see that I won't be able to rely on as many GP for the required techs; there's a good chance I can research them on my own before the GP appear. Krikkitone's suggestion regarding popping a GS for Education may be what I do, since getting to Education takes longer. If Taoism isn't founded when I get my GS, though...

Pigswill, regarding what may take me out of my comfort zone in this game, it's this proposed tech path. Can I bypass all those techs I'm used to researching? If I decide to go this route, do I have the willpower to forgo a sweet tech trade for Masonry until after I get CoL and/or CS from a Great Prophet? Will I be able to bypass Feudalism and Theology while the AI civs are building Longbowmen and adopting Vassalage and Theocracy? And can I hold off my neighbours long enough to get those Redcoats available?

The tech path above will not lend itself to certain victory conditions--cultural in particular, since I'm not Creative and I'm looking at bypassing Theology and the very-useful-for-cultural Sistine Chapel. If I wind up bee-lining to a mid-game UU, I think we're talking about a domination win.

(On a side note--it will be interesting to revisit this when I play as Peter of Russia, since he has one each of the English girls' traits: Vicky's Expansive and Lizzie's Philosophical. Like them, he also has an awesome mid-game UU. The tech path to it is different, but it would be interesting to try the same overall approch with both cheap granaries AND more Great People.)

Another area where I'll be out of my comfort zone is expansion in the early game. Usually, as you've seen in the other ALC threads, I build 4 or 5 cities then start an early war. This time I'm aiming to build 8 or so. That's a lot of chopping and whipping. In the Liz game experiment, I only managed four cities before I had no choice but to expand through war; Expansive may help significantly with this. I think I'll need some guidance on the chopping and whipping; I don't use either as intensely as many others do.

I'm eager to hear more opinions on all this. I'll start the game and post the opening tomorrow night.

 

[The Tyrant]

I play Monarch games and almost always go for the Stonehenge/Oracle combo in the same city. Not only are both of those wonders achievable without hooking up stone or marble, but they have a strong impact on the future of the game. The way I see it, you build a wonder if you can and if it would help you. Why pass up an opportunity simply because it wouldn't be available on higher levels? Go for it. Until Emperor, the Stonehenge/Oracle combo rocks. The higher you go in difficulty the less you can rely on wonders, but at least through Monarch that combo is a very strong strategy that I would heartily recommend.

I like the idea of a structured bee-line to Redcoats. Get them early and you'll be a terror to your enemies (and any friends unlucky enough to be nearby). To assist the beeline, priority should be placed on granaries, cottage spam and courthouses.

Since this is to be played on Prince, I would make Agriculture a primary tech -- right after Priesthood or Writing (depending on how quickly the Oracle will be completed). It isn't technically necessary for the beeline, but farms would increase the speed at which you reach the goal. The primary benefit of Expansive is larger cities. To get maximum use of that benefit farm the cities up to size, then convert the farms to cottages. Farms let you reach max size more quickly, letting you work more cottages earlier, meaning more overall beakers in the long run.

EDIT: Afterthought -- That list of optional techs should be renamed "Ominous techs" -- it includes some of the more AI-valued techs like Fuedalism and Theology. Techs that the AI likes to hold on to for a while before trading, then charging you through the nose to get them. Theology, in particular, may be worth sidetracking for if you predict warring much before Redcoats.

 

[pigswill]

Couple of thoughts:you need the monarchy/feudalism/guilds/banking line for replaceable parts (not optional). You don't actually need education/ liberalism for replaceable parts or gunpowder (tho they're nice in their own right) which means you don't actually need philosophy for a redcoat beeline.
Tech beeline and Vicky's traits could be an argument for superscience city (bureaucracy,academy,GL, GS specialists); build GL in best commerce spot then build palace.
If you're whipping early on then you'll likely need agriculture and animal husbandry for city regrowth.
Edit:You can also trade for techs:if you're going for machinery (and compass for cheap harbours) then optics is a minor detour which open up tech-trading with other continent.
Voek: While your comments about oracle building are relevant in terms of working towards higher levels I'm not so sure they're relevant to ALC series which is about improving strategy at prince level (though a useful reminder than optimal prince strategies are not optimal emperor strategies).

 

[cabert]

what happened to cultural?
you didn't start the game, and you already have traded it for a domination win


My guess for vicky is to follow the coast line (cheap harbors, good health = no need of fresh water) = easy money with financial
i'm not a big oracle fan, i think you could get more out of the great lighthouse + colossus combo.

But this is all very much theory. When the game starts, differents strats will have different value : obviously agri is optional, since you know fishing and can research pottery without it. But if you start near corn, rice, or need farms to run some mines, it will appear very useful.

I would say let's get started!

 

[aelf]

What inspired me was a thread I saw here recently regarding a French gunpowder/musketeer bee-line. It was an extreme strategy, but very interesting, and the poster claimed to have used it to great success. In many ways, a Redcoat bee-line offers more balance in the tech tree. And just think--what if I got Redcoats while everyone else still had Longbowmen and Macemen?!?

Is that referring to my thread? Well, it's not that recent.

One thing I noticed about Redcoats, though, is that Rifling is hard to bee-line to. I played Liz the other day and went the GS way. Burned a GS on Philosophy and another on Education, grabbed Liberalism, grabbed Printing Press (had traded for Machinery by then) and then went Replacable Parts and Rifling. Then I realised I forgot I needed Gunpowder See what I mean? That's a lot of techs, compared to what you need for Musketeers and even Cossacks. No doubt Redcoats are better than these (in terms of raw strength vs Cossacks anyway), but the Printing Press and Replacable Parts requirements are a drag.

The Musketeer strat was a 'great success' because it gave me a very important military tech advantage for a while that continued to be useful combined with more advanced units for the next few centuries. The Musketeers themselves allowed me to take a few cities without siege, but for the next 200 years they worked well with cavalry, which is only one tech away (MT, assuming you can trade for Music). You can do this with Redcoats too. But I find that your advantage is more due to the quality of this UU than to tech. And Assembly Line or Railroads really isn't far away for your strongest opponents (Redcoats can't beat Machine Guns without scuicide cannons no matter their CR level). Maybe this is isn't such a problem on Prince, but it certainly won't be as long-lived as the MT bee-line.

In any case, if you are going to rush to Rifling, I suggest no delay in getting Liberalism. I think your deviations are a bit too many as it stands.

 

[aelf]

By the way, drafting Redcoats is way too overpowered. And I would think it works even better with larger cities (more pop. to draft).

 

[cabert]

In any case, if you are going to rush to Rifling, I suggest no delay in getting Liberalism. I think your deviations are a bit too many as it stands.

it's prince level
deviations won't be a problem.
It's more about good trading than about deviations.

 

[aelf]

On Emperor deviations might cost you. On Prince, deviations might whittle away your otherwise immense and immortal advantage.