ALC Game #5 Pre-Game Show: playing as Victoria

pigswill said:
Voek: While your comments about oracle building are relevant in terms of working towards higher levels I'm not so sure they're relevant to ALC series which is about improving strategy at prince level (though a useful reminder than optimal prince strategies are not optimal emperor strategies).

One of the goals of the ALC for Sisiutil is to improve himself i think. Moreover, i think it's a goal for every player. I agree the focus is on succesfull strats for prince level. I just think it's a good idea to keep in mind that some strats won't work on higher level. Not that you should alter the strat. in the ALC game, but just to take it along. But you are right, maybe a pm was more appropiate. The good thing of the ALC is that you learn (to use) new strats. for different kind of situations (leaders). But by all means i don't want to say you shouldn't build the Oracle, but just keep in mind it is a prince strat. Nothing wrong with that. I realy appreciate the differences in strats. Since they give you the best lessons. I realy enjoyed reading the early WC rush, since it's a unique strategy.

Well more then enough talking about general stuff and return to the real game, ALC number 5. I can't wait to see the starting screenshot.
 
Lets get things started!! The suspense is killing me already.

The fun thing about these threads are they make you think about the game a lot harder and you are starting to make your own plans. I started as Toku now and concentrated on getting samurais. But bad tech planning delayed me a lot. Although I am kicking ass now with them and the first few cities were only defended by archers I should have gotten them a lot sooner so I wasn't able to use them to their fullest potential. Before these ALC's I would never plan ahead and just play.

As to Vicky. I do think that granaries are a must in the build. It makes the whipping so much more easier. Depending on the resources you can choose agriculture/masonry/animal husbandry. Following the coast line or a start on a coast line would be great with her. Imagine getting London on a starting place with 3 sea food resources (droooool). Then beelining towards Great lighthouse and colossus is getting much more important. The starting spot and the enemies around you are very important. Now go post the starting spot ;)
 
Time for contention. In my limited experience geography is at least as important as traits or UUs in determining strategy and victory. You know you'll be starting on a continent and that's it. Could be a small continent to yourself, could be a giant continent with four other civs. You could start with alex,monte, togukawa and HC or start with Gandhi and MM. You could start in desert/plains, in a jungle or tasty grassland covered in cows and wheat. All of these have a huge impact on how you play.
Pre-game you can start with intentions based on traits and UU but you can't really start with a strategy. You probably need to play up to 1000BC or so before you can really decide on victory conditions.
 
pigswill said:
Time for contention. In my limited experience geography is at least as important as traits or UUs in determining strategy and victory. You know you'll be starting on a continent and that's it. Could be a small continent to yourself, could be a giant continent with four other civs. You could start with alex,monte, togukawa and HC or start with Gandhi and MM. You could start in desert/plains, in a jungle or tasty grassland covered in cows and wheat. All of these have a huge impact on how you play.
Pre-game you can start with intentions based on traits and UU but you can't really start with a strategy. You probably need to play up to 1000BC or so before you can really decide on victory conditions.
Definitely, and that's how I prefer to play.

Usually, though, on a continents map, I draw 3-4 neighbours, and at least one of them is a jerk I have to dispose of at some point. So I tend to find that strategy and the victory pursuit depends not only on the map, but the geographical placement of my continental rivals.

In the Mao game, I remember we were all hyped to pursue a cultural victory. But the flies in the ointment there were (1) the shape of the continent and especially (2) Monty's location on it. If Montezuma had been next door to me instead of Catherine, I probably would have axe-rushed him and then could have settled back for a cultural win, given how I was pumping GP and wonders like mad and would have had both marble and stone at that point. Instead, I had to go through Catherine first and was then facing Monty in the medieval era. You do NOT want Monty next door if you're going for cultural, so that VC was abandoned.

With so many potential neighbours on a continents map, you usually draw a few dangerous opponents. In the Qin game, I had Caesar and Huayna--not psychos, but "slow burns" who can be problematic by mid-to-end game, especially if you're weak. In the Hatty game, I had Caesar and everyone's favourite religious fanatic, Isabella. Ironically, I think the ALC game where I had the best chance at a cultural win was when I played as Monty! :lol: Play as a psycho and you reduce your chances of running into one. Something to remember when I play as Alexander and Isabella.

Long story short, pigswill is right. Let's see the shape of the map and the identity and location of the neighbours before I finalize a strategy.

To address some other points:

  • Voek--yes, I'm trying to improve, but the success of these threads has made me aware that several other people are using them to do that too. Killroyan's post is but one piece of evidence in that regard. You make a very valid point about different strategies as you move up the levels, so I hope everyone using these threads as learning tools remembers that. Many of my tactics, strategies, and gambits will NOT work on Emperor, or even Monarch! Fortunately, there are lots of other threads dealing with strategies for the higher levels.
  • Wonders: do remember that wonders are fun. It's a little mini-victory all on its own when you complete one. :woohoo: On Emperor, I would imagine you have to settle for a similar feeling if you capture a wonder, since it's unlikely that you'll build them. :)
  • Cabert--interesting that you should mention trades. In the Elizabeth warm-up game I played part of last night, my main tech trading partner was Caesar (I'd used a GP to pop CoL and founded Confucianism, which spread to him and he converted, so we were getting along all right). However, due to my single-minded pursuit of the Rifling tech path, by the time I got Alphabet NONE of the other civs had any of my primary techs to trade. They only had the secondary/optional ones. And by trading my primary techs to Caesar, I was allowing him to keep a couple of steps behind me and guaranteeing that he would be a much more dangerous opponent when I finally got Redcoats. So if I go the Redcoat-beeline route, I will have to very carefully consider each tech trade. I'm tempted to forgo them altogether.
Finally, I realize everyone is chomping at the bit, but I'm afraid you'll have to wait until I get home to my Civ computer before I can start the game and begin posting the game thread. :p Patience is a virtue. There are many rocks in the field. :smug:
 
This series should be interesting to me as I'm currently trying to perfect my Victoria play on Emperor level. (I have been steadly working up from Noble to Monarch to Emperor.) It seems like Victoria has a lot of good benefits since the patch. Having read the forums, its seems like the most power opening strategies include:

Powerful Early Mechanisms
1) Chopping Settlers - While not as powerful as before, its still an early economy boost.
2) Slavery
3) Stealing Workers/Early Axeman war

Victoria seems to have good synergies with all of these. With the health bonus, there is no downside to clearcutting to fuel expansion. Slavery generates the first granary in two turns (one for 1st turn growth, one for whipping right?)

At that point, you can use your stolen worker(s) + granaries on your first two towns to fuel a settler expansion or early war to eliminate an opponent/double empire expansion.

Optimizing Redcoats
My personal strategy of late has definately been towards domination victories after redcoats (worked at Prince and Monarch). First off, I like to try to have Heroic Epic + West Point + Theocracy (For +10 XP) available for my main military industrial city. I hold off chemistry (which replaces Maceman with Grendiers) until I can crank out about 4-6 City Raider III Maceman, which I can immediately upgrade to redcoats. Once I have my sappers ready, I can keep going up the tech tree.

Delaying redcoats to get military tradition for West Point may not be an option in Emperor, in which case CR II Redcoats might have to suffice. In addition, an early war would be needed to get up to 17 XP so West Point could be in place for the Maceman->Redcoat upgrade. I still need to refine, but the once in a game oppurtunity for CR Redcoats/Infantry/Mech Infantry is too good to pass up. I need to make this work for Emperor thou, so the jury is still out.
 
A revised and hopefully FINAL Redcoat bee-line tech path. Liberalism is indeed optional, so I've put it and its pre-reqs in parentheses.

Primary techs:
  • Bronze Working
  • The Wheel
  • Pottery
  • Mysticism (for Stonehenge)
  • Meditation
  • Priesthood (build Oracle in same city as 'henge for GP points)
  • Oracle's free tech: Metal Casting
  • Polytheism
  • Writing
  • Code of Laws *
  • Alphabet
  • Literature (build Great Library in a non-SH/Oracle commerce city)
  • Civil Service *
  • Mathematics
  • Machinery
  • Currency
  • Feudalism
  • Guilds
  • Banking
  • (Philosophy **)
  • Paper
  • (Education **)
  • (Liberalism)
  • Printing Press (could be free tech from Liberalism)
  • Gunpowder
  • Replaceable Parts
  • Rifling and REDCOATS
*: potentially discovered by Great Prophet, if available
**: potentially discovered by Great Scientist, if available

Secondary techs:
  • Agriculture for farms
  • Animal Husbandry for relevant resources (including horses for Chariots for early defense)
  • Monarchy for Hereditary Rule
  • Sailing for Calendar and Compass
  • Iron Working for additional metal sources, production
  • Calendar for trade/luxury resources
  • Masonry (after GPs used for CoL and/or Civil Service)
  • Construction for Catapults
  • Engineering for road movement
  • Compass for Harbour, one of Victoria's cheap buildings, and its additional trade routes
Optional techs:
  • Hunting
  • Archery
  • Monotheism
  • Horseback Riding
  • Optics
  • Drama
  • Music
  • Theology
  • Divine Right
  • Military Tradition
  • Nationalism
  • Constitution
  • Economics
 
A couple of things about Victoria. She was Elizabeth's first cousin eight times removed. Her father's family, the sons and daughters of King George III, were uniformly horrible -- lechers, sadists, alcoholics, and worse.

There are two theories about why she turned out OK. One is that she wasn't really her father's daughter. (In which case she wouldn't really be Lizzie's cousin. Oh, well.) The other is that it's because her father (who was a real maniac) died when she was very young. Her mother took her far, far away from her father's horrible family and raised her like an ordinary middle-class girl rather than a royal. This was not because of idealism, but to keep a low profile, so that none of her father's horrible family would think of having her killed.

IMS she didn't become heir to the throne until her teenage years when a cousin died. So she had a relatively normal childhood. Very unlike Lizzie, whose mother was beheaded when she was a toddler, and who grew up in constant fear of the axe herself.

Lizzie was forced to become a brilliant dissembler and schemer. Which she remained, all the days of her life. Victoria never had to be clever, and so wasn't; but she grew up calm and emotionally stable, and possessed of an unusually middle-class set of values.

I think it's great that you're giving her a chance. Go Vicky go!


Waldo
 
Sisiutil said:
Wonders: do remember that wonders are fun. It's a little mini-victory all on its own when you complete one. :woohoo:

Yes! I recently completed my first successful CoL / CS slingshot (prophet for CoL and Oracle for CS). It was nice!

Sisiutil said:
On Emperor, I would imagine you have to settle for a similar feeling if you capture a wonder, since it's unlikely that you'll build them. :)

That's actually one of the reasons I'm hesitant to move up to Monarch myself. I find that because of the way the difficulty levels are implemented, you actually have fewer strategy choices available at the higher levels. By the time you get to Diety, your options are pretty much war, war, or if you get really luucky and everything really works out in your favor -- war.
 
Sisiutil said:
A revised and hopefully FINAL Redcoat bee-line tech path. Liberalism is indeed optional, so I've put it and its pre-reqs in parentheses.

Primary techs:
  • (Education **)

Actually Education is Required for Printing Press, so this one IS mandatory (basically the only tech you have to spend to get Liberalism is Philosophy and Liberalism itself.) Which can Mostly pay itself back with Printing Press
 
Krikkitone said:
Actually Education is Required for Printing Press, so this one IS mandatory (basically the only tech you have to spend to get Liberalism is Philosophy and Liberalism itself.) Which can Mostly pay itself back with Printing Press

Nope - Printing Press requires only Paper (also an Education pre-req) and Machinery.

Reference: CIV4TechInfos.xml
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
That's actually one of the reasons I'm hesitant to move up to Monarch myself. I find that because of the way the difficulty levels are implemented, you actually have fewer strategy choices available at the higher levels. By the time you get to Diety, your options are pretty much war, war, or if you get really luucky and everything really works out in your favor -- war.

Ain't that the truth.
 
Hey Sisiutil. As the one who asked for two threads, would it be possible for you to put a distinctive tagline next to every playthrough (such as !@# ALC Session X: to XXXX AD) and any who apply could easily search for !@#, which obviously nobody else will be typing in their commentary.
-jcw
 
Sisiutil said:
theimmortal_1, thanks for confirming how important Liberalism will be to getting Redcoats. A CS Slingshot on Prince? With a Great Prophet, definitely possible.

Nares, interesting ideas as always. A Great Prophet for Code of Laws? Is that possible? I've seen that the key for using GPs to pop techs is not just having the pre-requisites, it's also skipping certain techs. What's the tech path for this? And The Oracle for Monarchy? Interesting. I'd never considered it before.

However, you guys' recommendations conflict! Or do they? Could I use Oracle for Monarchy, and TWO Great Prophets, one for CoL, one for CS?

EDIT: VoU, I'll have a look at Epic 3 at Realms Beyond. By 15, do you mean 15 pop in each city? Ambitious...
A CS slingshot on prince is pretty easy in my experience. Especially with a financial leader.
 
jayseedubya said:
Hey Sisiutil. As the one who asked for two threads, would it be possible for you to put a distinctive tagline next to every playthrough (such as !@# ALC Session X: to XXXX AD) and any who apply could easily search for !@#, which obviously nobody else will be typing in their commentary.
-jcw
I'm going to go one step better and put a link to each round's post at the top of my first post in the game thread, so you can jump to each round from the top of the first page. It's something I'll find very handy as well, so I don't mind doing it.
 
Many thanks Sisiutil. I hope this helps others as much as it helps me. Three cheers for lurkers.
-jcw
 
Sisiutil said:
Reaping these benefits, however, will require careful micromanagement of city growth and a little more restraint than usual with the good ol' whip.

I respectfully disagree. I think if you use the exploit found in my sig, expansive can be one of the best traits to exploit the whip to the max. It lets you get granaries cheaper and earlier, and negates the health penalty from forges (a 25% or more bonus to production is essential for the exploit to work). I suggest doing what i do in my games : research bronze working, switch to slavery, and start whipping, meanwhile research pottery, build granaries, keep on whipping, and in this case, you can then go immediately for metal casting and forges, to improve the whipping. If you happen to find gold, silver or gems near you, this makes this strategy even better (factories give +1 happiness with those).

Your call of course.
 
Zombie69 said:
I respectfully disagree. I think if you use the exploit found in my sig, expansive can be one of the best traits to exploit the whip to the max. It lets you get granaries cheaper and earlier, and negates the health penalty from forges (a 25% or more bonus to production is essential for the exploit to work).

I figured as much. No sense in not getting the most out of those whips.

Zombie69 said:
I suggest doing what i do in my games : research bronze working, switch to slavery, and start whipping, meanwhile research pottery, build granaries, keep on whipping, and in this case, you can then go immediately for metal casting and forges, to improve the whipping.

Well, on this difficulty setting, it's easy enough to use The Oracle on Metal Casting, especially with Financial supporting more potent research to CoL.

Zombie69 said:
If you happen to find gold, silver or gems near you, this makes this strategy even better (factories give +1 happiness with those).

Factories or Forges?

EDIT: Enough talking. Post the save. :p
 
Zombie69 said:
I respectfully disagree. I think if you use the exploit found in my sig, expansive can be one of the best traits to exploit the whip to the max. It lets you get granaries cheaper and earlier, and negates the health penalty from forges (a 25% or more bonus to production is essential for the exploit to work). I suggest doing what i do in my games : research bronze working, switch to slavery, and start whipping, meanwhile research pottery, build granaries, keep on whipping, and in this case, you can then go immediately for metal casting and forges, to improve the whipping. If you happen to find gold, silver or gems near you, this makes this strategy even better (factories give +1 happiness with those).

Your call of course.
It's an excellent suggestion (and correction to my thinking) that others have made as well, but I'm definitely going to study the exploit. Metal Casting is on the way to Redcoats, so it is a priority, in fact if I can build the Oracle I may use it for MC rather than CoL like I usually do.

The game thread has begun and can be accessed HERE. You're not gonna believe this start, gang!
 
Nares said:
Factories or Forges?

I keep saying factories instead of forge. I think Civ 1 didn't have forges, that's why i keep going back to factories. Yes i meant forge.
 
jayseedubya said:
Hey Sisiutil. As the one who asked for two threads, would it be possible for you to put a distinctive tagline next to every playthrough (such as !@# ALC Session X: to XXXX AD) and any who apply could easily search for !@#, which obviously nobody else will be typing in their commentary.
-jcw

What??? I use !@# all the time in my posts! (usually in reference to my most recent blunder) ::SNARF::
 
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