ALC Game #6: France/Louis

[Sisiutil]

Tog is likely to be a good target because most of his unexplored territory is likely to be in northern temperate zone. I'd likely hold on for cats and build a proper stack of doom; whip courthouses as you go; consolidate north while beelining gunpowder; keep izzy and cyrus happy meanwhile; once you've got gunpowder switch off research for a while and take out south in one long campaign.

Can I just say I like the way you think?

 

[Eggolas]

Well, I'm honestly not that much of a warmonger. I war so I can build; Hans and I are alike in that respect, at least. I'm also a little more risk-averse than many other players. Thus, I built forges, then barracks, THEN my units, and I even paused a few times to build granaries to better support whipping.

Of course, posting the game like this may also make me play a little (or a lot) more deliberately. If I mass 6 swords quickly, send them off in one direction, then get blindsided by the AI from the other so that I lose all my cities, well, that's no big deal offline, but it would be a disappointing ALC, I should think.

I completely understand. I generally war to build also, except that I like to push the envelope a little. I'm not a domination by 1400AD player, but if I see an opening, I'll take it.

Your comment about the AI sending in troops elsewhere is a good one. I kept a reserve of 1 sword/1axe/1 archer escorting my two workers who were building a road to Kyoto while the attack commenced. I also chopped forests by Lyons and built several swords and an axe with the hammers. These moves proved useful as the swords defeated some Japanese troops sent againt Pigtown and the road network, and also gained CR2 status. Those proved quite helpful in the city busting.

Additionally, my CR1 sword was sacrificed in the attack to lower the defense of the best defender in Kyoto, so that the CR2 swordsmen could defeat the garrison and gain CR3 status.

As long as you are building catapults, get a couple of war elephants in there. They'll be quite nice to have along. Meanwhile, keep building troops in Lyons to discourage Huayna and to prepare for the move against him.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One thought on the Globe, I would not build it until After you had the Great Library (assuming it is going in Lyons) why?

1. It requires X Theaters...yes you get them cheap but...
2. You won't have that much unhappiness whipping the GL (and it won't be a problem if you whip down to low populations)

3. I'm not entirely sure you Want Globe there if you are going to put the GLibrary there, because if your GP farm is there, then you will only really be able to run Artists, unless you have Caste System. (fine if you want to do another Cultural Victory)

 

[Sisiutil]

One thought on the Globe, I would not build it until After you had the Great Library (assuming it is going in Lyons) why?

1. It requires X Theaters...yes you get them cheap but...
2. You won't have that much unhappiness whipping the GL (and it won't be a problem if you whip down to low populations)

3. I'm not entirely sure you Want Globe there if you are going to put the GLibrary there, because if your GP farm is there, then you will only really be able to run Artists, unless you have Caste System. (fine if you want to do another Cultural Victory)

Good point; I'd rather have Great Scientists. When I managed to get the Parthenon built in Orleans and realized it may produce a Great Artist, my first thought was to hold him for either a Golden Age or a culture bomb in a recently-conquered city (not for a cultural victory). Either one could prove useful.

Along those lines (more GA points), I'm thinking of making Orleans the military city, with Heroic Epic. Kind of by default--it's simply the best candidate among my four existing cities. I don't want to pollute Paris' GP points, Lyons as we discussed will be a science city/GP farm, and Rheims, well, Rheims has a ways to go before it can amount to much. It's missing hills and will likely need a workshop or two to improve its production.

After Japan I may be switching directions--sort of--to go after Huayna. I saw him sending a galley with a settler along my coastline, thanks to our OB agreement, to the northwest (hidden) portion of our continent. I didn't see it come back, so I'm assuming there's an Incan city up there. The maintenance must be killing him.

The only problem with attacking Huayna is that he's the low man on the totem pole. I always prefer to attack my strongest opponent, and that's Cyrus. The problem with going after him is not that he's particularly stronger than me, it's that I could get dog-piled as a result.

I'm thinking two rounds ahead here (the next one will focus on the war with Japan), but it doesn't hurt to lay the groundwork for what will come later. Suppose I take on Huayna after Toku. I could face a war on two fronts against the Incans, who are uncomfortaby close to my core cities. I'm not worried about losing a city as much as I am about pillaging. One way to deal with that is to build a second stack to take Machu Pichu, which I've been coveting for awhile, and use it as a buffer.

Another option is to bring Cyrus into it. He and Huayna probably will have religious and close borders diplomacy demerits with one another. War between them would distract Huayna from attacking Lyons and force Cyrus to commit resources to fighting, slowing his economy and research. I could still try to take Machu Pichu and let Cyrus handle the rest.

In terms of research, I think after Construction it's Monarchy, then Literature, and then a bee-line to Gunpowder (Theology from a GP (?), Paper, Education (help from a GS?), Gunpowder and Musketeers).

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Like you, I usually prefer to take on the strongest opponent, but I would revise that just a little. You want to take on the strongest opponent that you can reasonably handle and that it makes sense to fight with. In fact, you can generalize it by saying you want to take on whichever civilization will provide you with the maximum benefit.

Sometimes, and I think this might be one of those times, you get more bang for your buck by taking on the easy war and picking up some cities, a key wonder, a holy city, important resources, etc. Weakening the strongest opponent is often useful, but it's just a rule of thumb, not an inviolable rule.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 4: to 1020 AD

Doc, we are going to be revisiting that very question quite soon.

I wanted to accumulate a few more units before taking on Tokugawa, but after Eggolas's post, I kicked myself in the butt and told myself to get on with it. No waiting for Construction, just get out there.

Before that happened, though, Cyrus came by to do some swapping:

I know I said I didn't want to trade much with him anymore, but this was hard to resist, especially since Paris and Lyon were hitting their happiness limit and would be stretching my ability to deal with it through whipping alone. With Hereditary Rule and a couple of Calendar resources, I could manage unhappiness much more easily.

However, this lodged Cyrus ahead of me in score, where he has remained. And I've been beaten to a few prizes--Philosophy/Taoism (by Huanyna), Theology (by Cyrus). Well, I'll just have to deal with them later. That's what I get for trading away Code of Laws!

Time to take the bull by the horns.

The continent is big, granted, but dude, it just ain't big enough for the two of us.

I could see what Eggolas was talking about when I saw Kyoto's meagre defenses. Toku only had two Archers and one Spearman there, and a 40% defense bonus.

I'm used to going after Madrid and Cuzco in early wars, when they're usually holy cities and have a 60% defense bonus, so this was a pleasant change. I lost two Swords in the attack on Kyoto, but one earned its City Raider II promotion, the Axeman took out the Spear and earned Shock, and I had my Spearman kill the last, weakened Archer so he could get a Medic promotion. Kyoto's in a pretty nice spot, so I kept it, despite the lack of wonders and holiness. Those wine tiles were a welcome sight, considering my happiness problems, and made me feel better about the trade for Monarchy.

Shortly after this, Huayna came by and he and I had some interesting dealings. First of all, he had an interesting tech trade offer for me:

Of course, since I'm at war and I'm not financial, my economy is feeling the pinch, despite my best efforts to lay down cottages and ensure my citizens are working them. So Currency was too good to resist. But I've now made Huayna a little more formidable, so he's going to have to get taken down a peg or two pretty soon.

Shortly after that, he came by with another offer, if you want to call it that:

You may have noticed that Kyoto doesn't have a religion, and Confucianism spread to all of my cities all on its own. I figured relations with Isabella and even Cyrus are going to deteriorate anyway, so I agreed to this and converted to Confucianism. The funny thing is that Huayna converted to Judaism shortly after this!

Now this was calculated on my part in another sense, because I knew my next Great Prophet was only a couple of turns away.

Even though Cyrus beat me to Theology and founding Christianity, I used the Prophet for Theology anyway. With war expenses forcing the slider lower, I need all the help tech-wise I can get. And of course, I wanted to run the Theocracy civic for its free XPs. Now that I've gone with Confucianism, though, the next Great Prophet should probably be used to build the Shrine.

Speaking of building:

YEAH!! I actually whipped it when it was 5 turns from completion (I've been carefully whipping some units as well). Lyons had been running an Engineer specialist for several turns; once I built a library, I switched him to a Scientist and added another. But I still popped a Great Engineer shortly after this. Normally I'd be thrilled, but this reminds me of the Monty game: I really don't have anything to use him on just yet! The Sistine Chapel? I'm Creative and I'm not going for a cultural win this time. The Colossus? I don't have enough seafood tiles to make it worthwhile. The Hanging Gardens? I don't really need it what with all the rice, corn, pigs, sheep, cows, and wheat I have, not to mention forests I haven't chopped.

So the GE is sleeping in Paris, awaiting a Wonder worthy of him. He'll have a while to wait, as I'm pursuing Gunpowder via Civil Service, Paper, and Education, and there aren't any world wonders on that tech path. Huayna snagged Philosophy, but won't trade it--he's probably building Angkor Wat. If I attack him next I might be able to extort it from him, but that's a big maybe. I may wind up researching Philosophy on my own after Gunpowder. Then I may see about Liberalism, maybe grab Nationalism, and use the Engineer on the Taj. Or maybe I'll keep him for Versailles. Tough to say at this point, I've left a lot of techs behind, so much will depend on what I can trade/extort for.

Anyway, the war with Tokugawa continued. I razed three of Japan's insignificant little cities, including Tokyo, but I kept Osaka, which is on the continent's far coast:

This effectively means my territory slashes across the continent now and cuts it in half. Cyrus and Huayna can get through because they still have OB with me, but Izzy cannot because--surprise, surprise--she cut off all contact as soon as I went Confucian.

One complication is that the western half of the continent is a bloody mess. It looks like everyone started on the eastern side and then went land-grabbing over there. Isabella has cities to the south, Cyrus has the Christian holy city just south of Osaka, and Huayna has three cities in the northwest, including one on a little two-tile island that is surrounded by no less than four seafood resources!

Shortly after Osaka fell, I finished researching Civil Service and did another civics change. This is what I'm currently running:

I certainly wish I was Spiritual! Because the trade/research for each were separated by several turns, I had four turns of anarchy in this round: for Hereditary Rule, Theocracy, Bureaucracy, and Confucianism. Normally I prefer to wait and change civics simultaneously, but as I said, circumstances and pressing needs did not allow for it.

Finally, just after the millenium rolled over, the war against Japan ended. I had built two stacks by now because of the Japanese cities that were all over the place. One went north, and one went south:

Razing or keeping Edo was a very tough decision. I was staring at this screen for several minutes, weighing pros and cons. I decided to keep it. It's a decent city in a decent location and has a gold mine to pay for itself. It will be vulnerable to attacks from Persia when we go to war, so I'll have to reinforce it.

So at 1020 AD, here is a look at the power graph:

And the map:

So, what next?

I have a stack sitting up my Huayna's northwestern cities, and I'm moving most of the forces that took Edo into Rheims. So I could fight a two-front war against the Incan empire.

Or I could go after my main competitor, Cyrus. I'm very close to him in terms of power, so it's a good time to go after him. He's built several Wonders, including the Pyramids, that would be handy to have.

However, Huayna's conversion to Judaism--Cyrus' faith--complicates things. If I attack either of them, there's a good chance the other will join in.

Perhaps what I should do is march that stack near Magyar back down south to Osaka. In the meantime, I can do a little infratructure building--including spreading Confucianism not only to my cities, but to Huayna's, then convince him to convert. That drives a wedge between him and Cyrus, and I could, perhaps, even get the Incan to join me in attacking Persia. We could even take out Isabella together.

Before, of course, I suddenly but inevitably betray the little guy.

I also have to think about Forbidden Palace and moving the capital. Paris is just not in a central location. But where should they go? I have to be careful because FP, as a national wonder, pares the city it's in down to one.

Here's the game save, and I await your thoughts:

 

[aelf]

I think Edo is a bit too close to both Isabella and Cyrus, but Creative might help you out here. Might be one of those elusive but useful instances where Creative plays a part.

Good thinking in deciding to go after Cyrus next, but I would convert to Hinduism and build up a good relationship with Isabella for now to enlist her help against Cyrus. Looking at the map, Huayna is in the way, though, so you might want to crush him first. You can leave his nothern cities alone for now if you can't afford to split your forces, but you need to open up a bigger way into Persia.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think Edo is a bit too close to both Isabella and Cyrus, but Creative might help you out here. Might be one of those elusive but useful instances where Creative plays a part.

Good thinking in deciding to go after Cyrus next, but I would convert to Hinduism and build up a good relationship with Isabella for now to enlist her help against Cyrus. Looking at the map, Huayna is in the way, though, so you might want to crush him first. You can leave his nothern cities alone for now if you can't afford to split your forces, but you need to open up a bigger way into Persia.

Yes, the fact that I'm a Creative civ and Edo's borders will expand quickly played a part in deciding to keep it. And if you look, it IS my route into Persia.

I'd love to convert to Hinduism to make Isabella happy with me, but the problem is that I have no Hindu cities! And with no OB, she can't spread her religion to me (the ditz).

Now I just noticed, after looking at the map for this discussion, that Edo is Jewish! Holy cats, I could convert, get all cozy with Cyrus AND Huayna, build a Monastery in Edo, spread Judaism to my cities, and then go after Isabella, using Edo as my rallying/launching point into Spain.

Hmmm... food for thought. What does everyone think?

 

[aelf]

I think that works too. Edo is a very narrow route to Persia and I don't like such a vulnerable supply line. Maybe it's not such a risk on Prince, I don't know. But, in any case, the lands of Spain are open to you. Watch out for Cyrus' increasing power, though. He can mass armies quite well in the later part of a game.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Drive the wedge between HC and Cyrus. If they don't like each other, then they may not care when you go after one of them...

 

[pigswill]

If you're not building military atm you could go NSR until religious picture becomes clearer; no guarantee AIs won't change religions again. May help to spread one religion to all your cities with barracks so you have option of theology for stronger musketeers; you may also be able to trade for feudalism. Moving palace more central seems worth doing, if its commercially weaker that's no big deal if you're running feudalism instead of bureaucracy. Revisit targetting strategy once you've got to gunpowder. Key to early victory is focus as you already know.

 

[Araqiel]

I think that works too. Edo is a very narrow route to Persia and I don't like such a vulnerable supply line. Maybe it's not such a risk on Prince, I don't know. But, in any case, the lands of Spain are open to you. Watch out for Cyrus' increasing power, though. He can mass armies quite well in the later part of a game.

I don't think its a concern on any level. Its incredibly easy to bring two workers with your stacks to road your way to any opponent as long as you have a respectable amount of common borders. The only risk is if you don't put sufficient forces towards defense when a single city, in this case Edo, will likely bear the brunt of the AIs stacks.

 

[aelf]

I don't think its a concern on any level. Its incredibly easy to bring two workers with your stacks to road your way to any opponent as long as you have a respectable amount of common borders. The only risk is if you don't put sufficient forces towards defense when a single city, in this case Edo, will likely bear the brunt of the AIs stacks.

That's not entirely true, I think. In this case Huayna is on good terms with Cyrus, so he can be bribed to attack you. If so, he might concentrate his attack on the narrow route. You may be able to defend the city, but if he is present in force, you can't send reinforcements to your invasion force easily. In fact, Huayna only needs to pillage a few roads to make things difficult for you.

However, maybe on Prince or lower you would be significantly stronger than the AI so Huayna might not want to attack you or might ask for too high a price to do so. I believe on higher levels you might be in a sticky situation if you assume it's safe.

 

[Petrucci]

this is debatable and would love to hear counter aguements, but imo Cyrus won't attack if you knock out Huayna. He is the type to play to his own agenda and not easily bribed to help out others, even of the same faith. The Incan however will more than likely attack if you go for cyrus. My humble opinion is do the 1-2-3-4 combo on Huayna then go for persia. As far as the 2 little cities he has up in the north west, let that be the location for his new capital once you smash the cluster of 4 there. At least until you claim Persia as yours.

 

[aelf]

this is debatable and would love to hear counter aguements, but imo Cyrus won't attack if you knock out Huayna. He is the type to play to his own agenda and not easily bribed to help out others, even of the same faith. The Incan however will more than likely attack if you go for cyrus. My humble opinion is do the 1-2-3-4 combo on Huayna then go for persia. As far as the 2 little cities he has up in the north west, let that be the location for his new capital once you smash the cluster of 4 there. At least until you claim Persia as yours.

My point exactly.

 

[Murky]

I don't think you need to worry too much about HC. He's the weakess and there is usually only a -1 penalty for "you declared war on our friend."

I would get those Pyramids from Cyrus asap and possibly befriend Isabella as an ally. That depends a lot on the current relationship with her and how she fells about Cyrus. How are things looking as far the relationships between these three?

 

[Argoth]

If you're desperate to convert to Hinduism, you could try declaring war on Izzy, taking one of her cities that's close to you and has Hinduism, and then try to sue for peace. Build a monestary in the city, and spread Hindiusm to some more of your cities, and then gift the city back to her along with some outdated techs (just to up your relations).

Though this might be too much work considering you also have the ability to convert to Judaism.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Options

Spain First:
Pros: Diplomatic Cover, (everyone is anti Spain) Cities are in one Area
Cons: Allows Cyrus to continue growing peacefully.

Cyrus First:
Pros: your biggest Enemy
Cons Everyone else might attack you..HC is His Friend and Izzy is your enemy

HC First:
Pros: He's weak
Cons: Diplomatic issues as above.. also his cities are scattered.


I'd say the bull's eye is pointing at Spain. After that you could go Jewish (Spain has the Holy City so you should be able to get it) and settle in to Diplomacy for the Rest. From the looks of it, the Other Continent is going to be pure BudIslamist so you easily have a bunch of enemies to "fight". Work on making some strong allies and you can do a Diplomatic victory. If you keep up nice Trading relations with them then you can probably maintain good relationships.

So...
Get Gunpowder
Conquer Spain, Spread Judaism [Get the Temple of Solomon with the next Prophet]
Convert to OR+Judaism after the conquest, Expand in any remaining spots on the continent (one city on each of the Northern Peninsulas, and one North of Edo, maybe one South of Spain) Then FP/Palace... Palace in Orleans, FP in Spain

Go for Liberalism>Nationalism>Optics/Astronomy... so you can assess and antagonize your competitors... then head for Constitution [Cyrus is Pro-Republic] Democracy for a cheap SoL -> Mass Media... Declare a few wars on the way... against the other continent, and get your friends in.


Also the Engineer might be good to use for a Tech... like Gunpowder if he gives it. (although It'll probably be Machinery or Engineering)... but you might as well check... never mind, the Engineers sequence would be Machinery, Engineering, Guilds THEN Gunpowder. Taj is probably the better idea. (basically use him for a Golden Age.)

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

If you do take the diplomatic route that Kirkkitone recommends, you need to be prepared to finish off Isabella in one blow. One "You declared war on our friend" point can be overcome, but if you're talking about getting two or three from an extended campaign, that makes it harder.

The other problem I see with this is that you're likely to start running into "Our close borders spark tensions." Not just between you and the other two but also with Cyrus and Huayna. If those are your chosen allies, then it's trouble if they start to hate each other. You'll need to be prepared to either switch to a non-diplomatic victory or to change teams and ally with the other continent against your neighbors.

 

[vampy420]

I'd kill hyuana asap .. then consolidate your empire a bit.. maybe tech up to muskets before clearing continent.