ALC Game #6: France/Louis

[Stolen Rutters]

Have you calculated the future maintenance cost of the cities you are planning to keep? Will it reduce your research capability significantly?

With a bit more commerce in the cities, especially once Tours is cleared out, and the upcoming Prophet building a religious shrine, AND the Versailles or Forbidden city dropped in a south-central city like Madrid, Edo or Seville, it shouldn't be as much of a problem with the compact geography of this continent. (I always move the Palace later if I have a shot at the Versailles first.) There are more ways around crippling expansion at this era than there are before CoL. Many of your early cottages are +4 going on +5 , you have a couple +1 trade routes from tech, some +25% commerce buildings, and you can still raze a few cities as you go.

I like the way your commerce size limit naturally grows as the game progresses through the eras... not that your new cities are cheap, but that your capacity for income matures over time through reinvestment in technology and infrastructure.

A captured city is more likely to pay for itself from the get go as you almost always have a built-in population to work more tiles (or specialists if it's a poor commerce city).

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Finish what Izzy astarted. As long as you are not the same religion, she will be looking for an opening to attack. And if you are busy with Cyrus, then that's here chance. The sooner youy get rid of Izzy, the sooner you can get to work on Cyrus. And if HC gets in your way, steam roll his punk backside too.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 6: to 1802 AD

Well that took a heckuvalot longer than I thought it would.

Okay, so: target, Isabella. Weapon of choice: Grenadiers. Issue: money.

I had several CR II and III Macemen and Swordsmen that I wanted to upgrade to Grenadiers. Remember that the City Raider promotion is not available with new Gunpowder units--in fact, it won't be available again until Tanks! What a gyp.

Anyway, the upgrades were going to cost money. Lowering the slider was one option, but I needed more military techs once Chemistry was complete: Military Tradition, then Steel, then the path to Rifling.

There was one tech and one thing it made available that would be the solution to all this: Nationalism and the Taj Mahal. (When I got back to the game, I checked and found that Cyrus had beaten me to the Hagia Sophia. One more Wonder to take from him later.) So I still had that Great Engineer hanging around, and now I'd found a use for him.

As I laid my plans, Huayna went and converted to Taoism on me. Well, he founded it, so that's par for the course, but diplomatic relations were also getting complicated now. Why didn't everybody just stay Jewish and keep things simple? Oy vey.

Well, there was one civics change that would simplify things:

Yep, good ol' Free Religion. Goodbye city intel, hello better diplomatic ratings. Coupled with my military build-up and rising power rating, it made it highly likely that I would be left alone when I went after Isabella. I kept the XP bonus by switching to Vassalage.

On the next turn, after the Great Engineer did his sweet funky, the plan continued to unfold:

I still didn't declare war, though. Not only did I want to build some more units, I also wanted to max out the financial benefit by NOT having troops off their home turf and pay the extra maintenance costs. That would come soon enough. Meanwhile, I did a few selected upgrades: as soon as I had sufficient cash, any CR III unit became a Grenadier.

While still enjoying my Golden Age, Huayna came by for a visit and an offer I couldn't refuse:

Seeing as how guilds gave me grocers and would help towards Rifling, and the tech he wanted was relatively harmless, I agreed.

The GA ended, and it was high time to renew hostilities:

I actually extorted all her gold (140 of it) from her right before this. Strangely, in Civ II, you used to get a diplomatic demerit of sorts if you declared war right after receiving tribuite, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

The war plan unfolded pretty much as I specified in my previous post: I hit and took Toledo first, then absorbed Izzy's counterattack (she had Musketmen now, but I had Cavalry, and started giving them Pinch promotions). When her counteroffensive weakened, I set out again: Murcia first then Barcelona. Meanwhile, I gathered forces for a second stack in Seville.

At the same time, I sent two stacks of four Musketeers to do some pillaging. One drove straight into the heart of Spain, using a string of forested tiles for cover, and attacked her sole source of horses. The other went south, then west, and tore up her fur camps. It turns out that Izzy was trading pelts to Huayna for ivory. Thanks to the Musketeers, no more Horse Archers and no more War Elephants. I'll be using them on Cyrus in a similar fashion, especially since he has Military Tradition and Cavalry now.

Then I got Banking and did another civics change:

Caste System and Mercantilism, one of my favourite and synergistic combinations. I wasn't using the whip much, so I decided it was time to switch. Well, I eventually had to question that logic and decision, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.

Cordoba fell next:

I gotta say, upgraded Grenadiers with City Raider promotions kick some serious butt. The Musketeers were useful in another regard: they'd move in first, ahead of the main stack, reveal the city's defenses ahead of time, and then fortify themselves. When and if a counter-attack came, the Musketeers can venture out to attack and then come safely back inside the city walls. Of course, the Cavalry are no slouches at that either, but it was advantageous to be able to hold them in reserve for the toughest opponents.

An update on the other continent: Hatty and Genghis made peace right off the bat in this round. A few turns later, they were back at each others' throats again, Hatty getting the worst of it. I gifted her iron and Gunpowder, but it didn't do much good. Hatty died shortly before Isabella did.

Now, because I declared war this time, war weariness was, as usual, rearing its ugly head. Paris and Lyon in particular were suffering. I had to stop builds in each to build theatres or temples. Then Murcia and Barcelona came out of revolt. Their maintenance was through the roof, and they had loads of unhappy citizens. The solution was as terrible as it was obvious:

Yeah, I know, so many civics changes, you'd think I was Spiritual or something. Too bad I'm not. Even the obsolete Archers and Axemen in Lyon and Paris weren't getting the job done, and then Rheims, Kyoto, and Edo started to join in the WW fun. I whipped courthouses in the Spanish cities, then theatres in my older ones, and the problem didn't exactly vanish, but it did lessen.

Still, the race was on to finish this and get my economy and research back on stack. Cyrus is still outpacing me there, though not in power...yet. At last, Santiago, the sole Spanish hold out, fell to an onslaught of Cannon, Cavalry, Grenadiers, and a couple of Macmen I'm planning on upgrading to Rifles:

And Isabella...as usual...is no more. Just as France eliminated Spain in the World Cup, so I've eliminated them from my little world. Heh.

I spent a turn getting my house back in order, returning now-happy citizens to work on profitable tiles, shoring up relations, et cetera, et cetera. I sent one Musketeer into Persian territory to size up my next opponent:

So Cyrus has Cavalry and he has Riflemen. He'll be even tougher than Isabella. But I'll have Grenadiers to munch the Rifles, and Rifles to counter the Cavalry. I also just completed West Point in Orleans and can start churning out units with extra XPs there.

I'm ahead in power and intend to attack Cyrus soon to stay that way:

Genghis is somewhat worrisome, or would be, if he had Astronomy. Right now, he's not a concern. And he's dropping off a little; I suspect now that his war with Hatty is done, he's deleting units to try to get his economy back on track.

As for Huayna...he's my little buddy. Or witless foil, depending on your point of view. I'm researching towards Assembly Line right now, picking up several useful techs along the way. Just for the heck of it, I asked him for Economics...and he gave it to me! What a guy! Just for that, chum, I'm gonna kill you last.

Here's a look at the map:

Avar has GOT to go. The Christian holy city is spitting out way too much cultural pressure on my western possessions. I look forward to seeing what Cyrus converts to after I take that from him. That dinky little desert town north of Osaka will get razed.

I'm gathering forces in Edo now for a two pronged attack: one stack will go west to Aver, the other will take Bactra and head south. Once the western flank is secure, those units will join in the fun on the east coast. I expect Santiago and Seville to be the main targets for his counter-attack, so I want to take Bactra quickly in the hopes that Cyrus will use his units trying to take it back instead of threatening my cities.

So, time for your thoughts and opinions. How did I do? Did the delay for the Golden Age make sense? I think the civics-switching was sloppy on my part. I should not have switched away from Slavery, what with a long campaign and WW giving me whippable angry citizens.

And what do I do next? Should I switch civics again, neverthless? I'm researching Constitution now and will have access to Representation soon; I just got Economics and Free Market. Should I stick with Vassalage or try out Nationhood?

Huayna has spread Taoism to Paris and I'm building a monastery. I could convert to Taoism and spread it, and switch back to Theocracy to keep him happy. He's already asked me to stop trading with Cyrus (I balked), so the wedge has been successfully driven between them without my doing much about it.

And does my tech target of AL make sense? Or should I pursue something else?

I should also build the Forbidden Palace, and maybe move the main palace. Where should they go?

And lastly, should I delay a bit and build my economy and happiness buildings in anticipation of WW, or should I get to heck on with things? I mean, it's 1820 already and I've got 2 opponents and half a continent to conquer!

 

[cabert]

nationhood is good for riflemen if you have the globe theater in a high food city.
Do you have it?

My guess would be to build the cheap theatres everywhere in anticipation of war weariness (do you have dye?), then build the globe theater in some high food city. You won't be able to use nationhood efficiently though, because infantry costs 2 pop (1 pop only for riflemen!).

Would you be able to kill gengis?
he seems backward, with loads of land = enough for the domination win.

About civics, if you have open borders with cyrus and HC, you'd be better off with slavery/free market for a while.

edit : although i was one to point the use of caste system + mercantilism in another ALC, i think it is not optimal here because
- no representation
- no sistin chapel
- few cities (relatively = not more cities than foreign cities with OB)
- no spiritual trait (makes switching to slavery for a few turns too expensive)
- creative trait (culture will come regardless of an artist in the nex cities + cheap theater you can pop rush everywhere)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Strangely, in Civ II, you used to get a diplomatic demerit of sorts if you declared war right after receiving tribuite, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Well, certainly not after you take her off the map completely. Perhaps my next Mod - for destroyed civilizations, the diplomatic status appears as "irrelevant".

The game already has periods where you cannot declare war, perhaps the same should follow a tribute demand.

 

[cabert]

Well, certainly not after you take her off the map completely. Perhaps my next Mod - for destroyed civilizations, the diplomatic status appears as "irrelevant".

The game already has periods where you cannot declare war, perhaps the same should follow a tribute demand.

always thought it should, but it doesn't. So tribute = denial of upgrade for the victim. a must do

 

[voek]

Well, certainly not after you take her off the map completely. Perhaps my next Mod - for destroyed civilizations, the diplomatic status appears as "irrelevant".

The game already has periods where you cannot declare war, perhaps the same should follow a tribute demand.

offtopic: One thing I miss in Civ4 is the revolution of destroyed/conquered civilizations. I just loved to do that. Can you also Mod that?!

I am sorry the destroyed civs reminded me off this lost civ concept.

 

[Eggolas]

Time for some friendly second guessing. Please note that this is really good hindsight.

1. We attack differently in that I'm more concerned about the enemy being unprepared than my being perfectly prepared, but in my shadow of this I had Cyrus out by 1700AD and ready to roll on Isabella. Avar and Bactra were not tough and once Arbela fell to the SoD, Susa followed and there went his research. Isa didn't attack, just sat back quivering. [added] Isabella just fought a war with you and was prepared with more catapults in one city than Cyrus had in total (or thereabouts). Cyrus was not really prepared and quite vulnerable to the loss of Avar, Bactra, Arbela and Susa.

2. The civics changes were not required. Free markets and Theocracy/Bureaucracy much better with HR/Slavery. I recommended building theatres in my last message to counter war weariness. That's why the trade for dye was to be made.

3. With open borders and a Slingshot choice of Astronomy, why aren't the Mongol cities spammed with your shrine religions by now? One city dedicated to spitting them out, maybe two and some Galleons would have improved your finances quite a bit over the last three hundred years.

4. Your advantage over Cyrus is both total power and Cannons, but I only count 5 cannons and three 'pults. Anyways, you'll have to get more cannons into this bloody battle.

5. Another reason to have taken Cyrus first is not only the cultural pressure from Avar, but the coin to be gotten from her shrine which would have helped finance the war. Anyways, yes, take it!!!

6. You should still be able to win this via domination. Just stay on Khan's good side. He has power, not quality of troops yet and can't really mass anything without a horde of Galleons, which he doesn't have.

[added] I am a little confused on how you viewed your war booty. With over 1,000 gold, what were you intending to do with that as you lowered research and didn't move the culture slider?

 

[cabert]

6. You should still be able to win this via domination. Just stay on Khan's good side. He has power, not quality of troops yet and can't really mass anything without a horde of Galleons, which he doesn't have.

Anyone else thinking that keeping at peace on this continent while conquering the other is an option?
keshiks aren't a threat to riflemen

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I think the civics-switching was sloppy on my part.

I agree.

I should not have switched away from Slavery, what with a long campaign and WW giving me whippable angry citizens.

I disagree. I didn't have a problem with your switch to Caste System, though others have pointed out some possible disadvantages to that move. The one that really threw me was when you switched back to Slavery again in order to deal with, what, 3 turns of war weariness until you eliminated Isabella? You should have just ignored the unhappiness until you killed her. Now that she's gone, you not only wasted the turn(s) revolting. You also killed off a bunch of citizens that could be back doing productive work for you.

One of the things I've become much more comfortable with is a few unhappy cities during war. It happens. Of course, if there's an easy solution (ex. take a 2 turn timeout to build a temple) then you might as well take it, but the nice thing about war weariness is that you know you can always fix it instantly with a peace treaty or some other kind of end to the war.

Remember the thread on Warmongering for Builders (at higher levels). One of its main tips is not to panic about war weariness.

In other news ... as far as going after Genghis instead of Cyrus and/or Huayana, I don't like it. Transcontinental warfare is always troublesome. You need a massive number of boats to bring over enough troops, and then adding reinforcements can take 5 or 10 turns for the round trip voyage. I think Cyrus would need to be way more scary than he is before that turned into a good choice. Also, what happens if you do that and then find out you're 2% short of a domination win?

 

[voek]

War weariness is being dealt with the culture slider. Offcourse all your big city (should) have theatres.

It's the perfect short term solution and you only will change the slider if 10% more has more benefit in terms of GNP and science then if you wouldn't.

Though you even shouldn't worry to much about science when fighting your war, you should worry if you have enough soldiers and enough money to pay for them, to win the war.

 

[cabert]

The one that really threw me was when you switched back to Slavery again in order to deal with, what, 3 turns of war weariness until you eliminated Isabella? You should have just ignored the unhappiness until you killed her. Now that she's gone, you not only wasted the turn(s) revolting. You also killed off a bunch of citizens that could be back doing productive work for you.

not that easy!
if there are loads of unhappy citizens, your city starves. Since you just captured it, there is nothing in the box, so one turn of starvation = 1 pop lost. 3 turns of war weariness = 3 pop lost. whipping a theater = 2 pop well used(fighting cultural pressure from your invasive neighbour).
Of course, each starvation leads to less unhappiness, so my explanation is a bit crude, but you get the point.
In the specific situation it resulted in
- one turn of anarchy to go back to slavery = no pop loss (food or not, under anarchy everyone eats ), in which you can start building a theater
- one turn of whipping the theater (would have been my choice, not sure what sissiutil did) (one pop used, probably, + one pop starved)
- one turn of culture sliding to be at acceptable unhappiness.

I think there is no great harm done, though without the round trip to caste system, he could have had a whipping at turn 1, without anarchy, for 2 pop, and no starvation = better for the rest of the empire.

One of the things I've become much more comfortable with is a few unhappy cities during war. It happens. Of course, if there's an easy solution (ex. take a 2 turn timeout to build a temple) then you might as well take it, but the nice thing about war weariness is that you know you can always fix it instantly with a peace treaty or some other kind of end to the war.

Remember the thread on Warmongering for Builders (at higher levels). One of its main tips is not to panic about war weariness.

true, but here it's not just war weariness. It's war weariness + no happy buildings + "we want to go back to our nation" or whatever the text is. Against this much of trouble, there is only culture sliding and whipping.

In other news ... as far as going after Genghis instead of Cyrus and/or Huayana, I don't like it. Transcontinental warfare is always troublesome. You need a massive number of boats to bring over enough troops, and then adding reinforcements can take 5 or 10 turns for the round trip voyage. I think Cyrus would need to be way more scary than he is before that turned into a good choice. Also, what happens if you do that and then find out you're 2% short of a domination win?

then you go for HC
But i knew some people don't like intercontinental warfare. I like it though, even more so when i have a good tech lead because :
- frigates vs caravels is a sure win, most of the time
- no counterattack against home land
- faster conquest :
one turn of frigate bombing +landing, another turn of frigate bombing + assault = 2 turns for every coastal city, can be multiplied by any number of stacks My favourite being a 2 stacks landing, on distant cities, say one north and one south. You mostly get a counterattack on one of those cities. Meaning that one stack can heal without any trouble
About reinforcements, prior to railroad, gallions are faster than land troops (including cavalry in hostile land), so it's not an issue. Just something to get used to : you need to build galleons non stop (not necessarily fast, but non stop).

 

[Sisiutil]

Good points, everyone.

One important consideration for war against Genghis is he's my sole source of dye. On a related note, no, I have not built the Globe Theatre. I haven't built enough theatres yet; I've been focused on units (which is also why I haven't gotten around to galleons of missionaries for Mongol. D'oh!). I think that's the next order of business in most of the cities that don't have them. They'll make use of the slider to combat WW more effective as well. The only high food city I have is Lyon, and it already has 2 national wonders. Perhaps one of the Spanish cities, once some basics are out of the way.

Speaking of national wonders, I'm thinking of moving the palace to Kyoto and putting FP in Madrid.

Yeah, I need more cannon, my current main advantage. That's the other thing I have to pump out, even more important than riflemen. Tours will have the Ironworks very soon, so once it has a theatre, it can start producing Cannon. Orleans now has West Point and will probably produce a mix of units.

So I think just a few turns of peace are in order. I should also raise the research slider a little and eat into some of that gold. I've socked a lot away for upgrading units, but with the exception of two Macemen (who still have to earn CRIII), that's done. I always like to keep a little cash on hand to upgrade older units in a city that unexpectedly comes under attack, but that would require maybe half of what I have on hand now.

As for attacking Isabella versus Cyrus...it was mostly about avoiding the blind-side. Which of those two is more likely to pull a sneak attack while I'm at war with the other? Right. So she had to die first.

I do have a little more respect for Musketeers now. As I said, they are terrific pillagers. As suggested, I had two stacks of four: a Combat I/Medic I, a Combat II, and a Woodsman II and a Guerilla II. Not only did that give them good defensive capabilities, it allowed them to move into a forest or onto a hill and still have a movement point left to pillage whatever improvement was there. I'll be using them to pillage Cyrus' source of horses in the next conflict.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I do have a little more respect for Musketeers now. As I said, they are terrific pillagers.

I just finished the age of the musketeer in my own Louis game. I'd say the same thing if you allow me to emphasize a little more respect. They did do quite well at pillaging, allowing me to take out Montezuma's metal (he didn't have any horses), but that still makes them a very niche unit. I think I made 6, maybe 8.

Among other things, at that stage in the game I don't really want to go too crazy with pillaging. I've usually developed my economy sufficiently that I want to keep whatever cities I conquer rather than raze them. So if I pillage too much, I'm hurting myself as much as I am the enemy.

 

[pigswill]

Get on with things. It's worth considering that GK and HC are pals while neither of them like Cyrus. Moving palace and building FP are worth doing. Stopping off to build theatres seems a good idea but don't waste too much time. Cyrus is your only tech rival, once he loses a few cities he'll start falling behind. If you were being adventurous you could switch off research for a while and spend on all your money on upgrades and maintenance with a bit of commerce left over for culture slider to combat war weariness.As I understand it war weariness starts from scratch with a new opponent.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

OK Civic Wise, Go Republic and Stick with what you have otherwise
(Mercantilism, Free Religion, Slavery, Vassalage)
Mercantilism: your cities aren't big enough and you don't have enough Friends to make it worthwhile to go Free Market
Vassalgae supports your large army, and allows that extra start promotion.
Republic... makes Mercantilism good.
Slavery: allows you to whip Specialist allowing buildings (so better than Caste...because you are only having a few Specialists everywhere)
Free Religion: Good for Happiness


In general I'd pause for Theaters and upgrades, and a FP/Versailles building/Palace Relocation. Because Cyrus is near equivalent to you, I'd focus on the upgrades rather than the tech rush (probably rush to Constitution, then set slider to 0 after becoming a republic and upgrade and then begin to smash Cyrus)...option 2 is rush to Democracy and then set the Slider to 0. (for Statue of Liberty... 6 free Research per city)
[So techwise: Democracy then 0% slider Republic Research to AL]... you should probably get the Infantry on line for wiping out Cyrus... Then use them to finish off the Inca.


Side Note: Santiago should be building a Bank not units (unless it already has a Bank ...I assume it has the Shrine) Once you start researching Corporation, a few more High hammer cities will need to build banks so that it can get the Wall Street. Its contribution to your empire is not units but gold.

Diplomatically it might be worthwhile to see if you can get a Dogpile on Persia (They are a big enemy and It might help in terms of Samaria and giving them the two Front War)... Giving HC some techs might be worth it. Also keeping GHenghis on a War Footing will hurt his economy and make him better friends with you.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I've never used Nationhood or drafting. I have two questions.

1. When it says "Can draft 3 units per turn" is that 3 units per city or 3 units across the entire empire? Three per city would be nuts.
2. Is drafting always a 1 pop to 1 unit ratio? If not, how does it work? Like slavery (30 hammers per pop) but with no penalty for having 0 hammers toward the unit? Do you get bonuses from buildings and other production enhancements?

OK, that might be more than two questions, depending on how you count.

 

[Sisiutil]

I like Krikkitone's suggestion regarding Democracy and the SoL. I haven't really been taking full advantage of the Industrious trait with all this warmongering. Plus I can switch to Emancipation if someone else does and that becomes an unbearable happiness issue.

I try not to let WW bother me, but the problem is that it's at its worst in your biggest and best cities. For me in this game, that's my two best commerce/science cities, Paris and Lyon. By the time I had Isabella down to 2 cities, Paris and Lyon had no specialists, 6-8 angry citizens apiece, and were in starvation. Worst of all, their science and commerce output dropped big time. And I was at 30% research and lacking room there to raise the culture slider significantly.

So I want to be better prepared for when I attack Cyrus, hence the theatres, and I like the idea of using Representation and Free Religion for the happiness bonus. Now that I have several more cities, I should be able to balance my builds better, even during wartime--not just military units, but missionaries and appropriate and much-needed civilian buildings too.

Pulling in Huayna and maybe even Genghis (not that he'll contribute much, but that's the beauty of it) is also a good idea. I'll give it a shot.

 

[picardathon]

Wait, you have astronomy right? So thats two techs (Three if you dont have printing press) to communism and state property! Its unfortunate to have to give up the specialists but you will get some serious cash bonuses considering you have a large, slash shaped empire with your capital up in the corner.
Plus I might just be inexperienced but is the AI so silly that it will completely divert its attack to Bactra if Bactra is taken? You have a massive border facing cavalry so pillaging is obvious, but if you expect cyrus will hit Madrid and Santiago why don't you go and attack Sardia and bring the fight to him?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually with Republic, Mercantilism is +6 commerce per city... State Property Might be a good idea if the Foreign trade routes are good enough, but I think Mercantilism probably has them beat at least during the Final time period... Attractive, but it takes 2 techs to get the Bonus, and not 1 tech->bonus (Republic), 2nd tech->Bonus (Liberty)

Assuming you get the FP placed I'm guessing Merc will be much better.