ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

[Stolen Rutters]

What I'd be more concerned about is giving Mao advance warning of the real attack.

Yes, you want to do as much damage from the initial surprise. I have images turned off on the forum now, so I didn't check out all of the screenshots. S, if you aren't ready for the attack just yet, don't bother. 2000-1000BC is usually the start of my first military campaign on Monarch (handful of axes whipped and on the move). If you don't have a good attack force, please ignore my advice.

Yep, granary, barracks and axes/swords are most often my first build and I almost never build the Pyramids if I have copper for an early axe rush. I am trying different styles of play when I have time, inspired by Sisiutil and aelf game posts most specifically (started lurking near the end of ALC#5).

 

[futurehermit]

I've been thinking for awhile that a hybrid economy is best.

Use pyramids/representation and 2 scientists early on and then specialize your cities as normal (commerce, production, etc.). Once you hit banking, use mercantilism to add another specialist (probably a merchant until you get another building that allows a scientist).

My reasoning is based on the fact that slavery is a very important civic, not just for production, but for managing unhappiness. Especially on the higher levels, unhappiness is a real issue and being able to whip that useless pop for production is really nice. Later on, once you get to the point where mercantilism comes into play you have more happiness available to you and you can then more easily afford adopting caste system to take your specialists beyond 2.

Alex rocks, especially with pyramids, have fun with this one...

 

[Jet]

Well, it will be 10 turns before Sparta's borders pop. As I said, I can have the road to the stone in place by then. Then it's just a matter of having a Worker on that tile ready to start on the quarry on that turn. How long does it take a Worker to build a quarry at normal game speed? I think it's in the range of 4-6 turns. So, let's say about 15 turns before stone is available. Yeah, I could build a lot in the meantime--probably 2 or 3 Axes out of Athens at least.

Sure, but I agree with VoiceOfUnreason that you should build an Axeman until it has 1 turn left, then a Phalanx until it has 1 turn left, then an Archer until it has 1 turn left, then a Library until it has 1 turn left - whichever of those you can fit into the 15 turns - and then after the stone is hooked up, alternate completing them with building the Pyramids so that the overflow from all of them is applied with the stone bonus to the Pyramids.

 

[pigswill]

On the other hand in SGOTM WOW (Whip Overflow into Wonders) has been classified as an exploit bcause whipping directly into a wonder you get 15hammers/pop; whipping overflow you get 30hammers/pop. Exploit? Smart play? Ethics? Expediency? No game should be this complex!

 

[Killroyan]

It may be an exploit but Sisiutil wanted to go out with a bang to Monarch, so I suggest to use every exploit to make the fastest victory ever. So follow Jets advice to get the maximum of exploit usage

On a sidenote, the hybrid SE/CE strategy is working like a charm for me in another game. I am tech leader, but somehow the AI has caught up a bit and there is a lot of fighting with my cavalry against 2 other civc with riflemen who both have been weakened by me (taken 3 cities from 1 and about 6 of another) and it isn't even 1600 yet???? Never seen these fights so soon.

 

[stuge]

Are you sure that building the 'mids in Athens is the best solution? It can produce settlers/military much more efficiently than Sparta. Just put Sparta working on the 'mids right away. Then work the wheat and the cows first for fast growth and then the quarry and the hill. At size 5 that city has 14 hpt and there's one of the silk forests to chop and the forest on that hill.

Meanwhile Athens can produce a settler to grab the red dot and then an army to go after Mao.

 

[Jet]

Hmm. So how can Sisiutil get maximum cheese? Can he build the Axe/Phalanx/etc each to 1 turn to completion, but then instead of completing them normally, gratuitously whip each one of them in order to get not only the regular overflow, but the whipping overflow as well?

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Hmm. So how can Sisiutil get maximum cheese? Can he build the Axe/Phalanx/etc each to 1 turn to completion, but then instead of completing them normally, gratuitously whip each one of them in order to get not only the regular overflow, but the whipping overflow as well?

Isn't that what they're talking about? If you just complete them normally for regular overflow, the most you can get is however many hammers your city produces minus 1 (if there was 1 hammer left to complete the unit). Why would you want to do that? You'd be better off putting all the hammers for the turn into the wonder instead of all of them minus 1.

 

[Killroyan]

Reread your post Jet and now understand what you meant but when you can whip a little and get the double overflow wouldn't that be something? Don't even know if that works.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I think it worked in vanilla (where overflow hammers became base hammers for the stone mod). I can't remember, though. It could be only for the building (organized civic) or unit you are building (with forge, for example).

 

[Sisiutil]

Pyramids in Sparta, huh? I'll have to consider that. Once it has the cows as well as the wheat that city can grow and, by working the stone, produce a decent number of hammers. In my other games lately, I've grown fond of building early wonders (my usual Stonehenge + Oracle combo) in my second city. What stuge said about Athens is true of almost every capital: it's the best early city to pump out Settlers.

The only problem is the dearth of forests (3 x 30 = 90 hammers) for chopping, whereas Athens has more than twice than number (7 x 30 = 210). I usually try to give the 2nd (early wonder) city a location with a lot of forests if I'm going to build wonders there rather than in the capital; I have to use chop-rushing to make up for the lack of population to work production tiles. On the other hand, this would leave all those lovely forests around Athens free for chopping other things--like SH and the Oracle, for example. And it also means Athens is free to produce Axes to go whomping Mao.

Hmmm...

Maybe someone can do a little number-crunching and figure out what's best. I have a feeling it's a marginal difference, but if it's not, I'd rather not make a big mis-step.

As for stealing a worker, I like the idea, but I have to be ready for Mao's counter-attack, as weak as it's likely to be. I have two Axes at the moment, one in each city, and I do have a spare Warrior fog-busting to Athens' northeast, so the press-gang job could easily fall to him. I'd feel better if by the time I snagged the worker I had at least a couple more Axes to defend my territory from Mao's pillagers.

(Sidebar: in my current off-line game I've only built one Worker! I stole two from Tokugawa with a Combat II Warrior before he caught on and gave them an armed escort. Then I built my Praets, went to war with him, and captured five more Workers from Japan and a couple of barb cities I captured. I love not having to build Workers and Settlers!)

 

[Jet]

Dr Elmer Jiggle:

> Isn't that what they're talking about?
I don't know.

> If you just complete them normally for regular overflow, the most you
> can get is however many hammers your city produces minus 1 (if there
> was 1 hammer left to complete the unit).
The +100% from the stone is not applied to the overflow?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well Its not really a matter of Number crunching, but here are the number crunches (assuming pop 5.. no Math...Stone Hooked)

Pyramids in Sparta
13 hpt + 3 Forests and a Whip of 2 pop at the end=26 hpt +3*40 + 60
450-180=270/26 hpt

So about 10 turns after the Stone is Hooked up... but you won't be at pop 5 then so rearrange to pop 3...9 hpt...18 with Stone
=15 turns Give or Take

Oracle/Axes in Athens...~10 hpt +7 fpt +20*7
The Forests alone take care of the Oracle, the Axes can come out ~1/3 turns.. plus probably a whip for 60 (clean Axe/Spear) every 2 pop or every 8 turns

So over the ~15 turns the Pyramid is being built. Athens gets about 9 Axes and the Oracle (~4 axes less for SH)

Disadvantage... To rush Engineer, Forge needs to go in Sparta then.
Advantage: the Engineers don't get polluted with Merchants if you put the Colossus in Athens

Alternative #2

Athens at 4
Pyramids
8 hpt +7 Forests +2 Whip =16 hpt+7*40+60=
450-340=110= 7 turns (of course you won't chop that fast, but extra will can be used for axemen.)

Sparta at 2
SH+Oracle=effectively 210 (with Stone)
6 hpt +3 Forests= 6+3*20=
210-60=150 =25... maybe less since you should grow to 3 or 4 then..15 turns if its just the Oracle



Actually I'm thinking the Pyramids are much Better in Sparta, So that Athens can rush out units, which are more easily whipped and Athens had a better Food advantage than production
at pop 3
Athens=+6 f, 5 hammer
Sparta=+4 f, 9 hammer

The other option is to go with the Option 2, Oracle in Sparta, Pyramids in Athens, but use the Pyramids immediately for Police State, Allowing Athens to mass Axes To finish off the Chinese (Axes/Phanxes, a Settler for Marble City.. to speed the Oracle, Workers/Granaries can also be built while waiting for Stone/Priesthood)

I think I prefer that method... you get the Oracle Probably After the Pyramids, guaranteeing the First GP is an Engineer, for Machinery, even without running a Forge.


So Final result: prebuild 1 Axe, 1 Phalanx in Athens, and then whip them out, concentrate on Food bonuses the the Copper, Chop like mad after the Stone, Cow and Wheat are hooked up. Whenever Athens reaches 4, once Working on the Pyramids, add an Axe or Phalanx on top and immediately whip 2 pop for 25 overflow=50 extra hammers



As for the Pre-build in Athens... assume 10 turns till stone is hooked up
during that time
Pop;Fpt;Hpt
3;6;5... 5 turns of this=25 to an Axe
4;4;8...5 turns of this=33 on the Axe+32 on the Phalanx
T1 whip the Axe=28 overflow=56 hammers [pop3]
T2 collect [pop 4]
T3 whip the Phalanx=27 overflow=54 hammers [pop3]
T4

Plus the base production which is 6,8,6,6,=26*2=52... although you should

So you get 56+54+52=162+ to the pyramids in the first 4 turns, no chopping... in another 3 turns you should have a 4 pop... so another 50 hammers +Axe/Phalanx from a whip


Actually Looking At it, it seems like the best 'pre-build' method might be to whip a Worker (once you hit pop 4), rather than prebuilding Axes. Because with all those Forests, and the Food bonuses, Athens is perfect for a Chop the Pyramids then exploit whips to whip ~2 Axeman for 1 pop under Police State.



So I'd say OPTION 1
Athens:
Axe until pop 4 then
1 turn on Worker and whip (for 2 pop)
Return to Axe (prebuild)
[Archer if Stone Not Ready]
Whip Axe to Pyramids when Stone Ready [Chop As Fast as possible]
Let pop climb... Whip Axe->Pyramids whenever pop 4

Sparta:
Axe (while pop Growing to 3 at least)
?Worker?
?Settler?
Oracle

I'd say probably wait on the Settler, don't race Mao, Kill him.

Disadvantage.. Later Oracle.... and Its risky cause Saladin has Marble


OPTION 2
Athens:
Axe/Phalanx Prebuild
[whip 1 Worker at pop 4]
Oracle (as soon as Priesthood)
Granary
Axes/Phalanxes*

Whip Axes into Oracle whenever pop=4

Sparta:
Pyramids... Just start and keep building, chop after Oracle done.
Forge


OK all considered, because the Oracle is one you can most easily lose, get that one first, In Athens. (then a Forge to go with the Pyramids in Sparta so that GP #2 can be an Engineer for Machinery) [25 turns after Oracle=GP, <20 Turns after Forge=GE]
OR 50 turns after Oracle, <10 turns after Forge.... You actually probably want the Prophet first, for Theocracy... Machinery isn't useful until you have Civil Service, unless you want to Bow rush.. so the Forge can be built normally rather than Rushing it in Sparta... it should take ~12 turns

 

[Eqqman]

I think this game is starting to move into the era where it is getting a little late to be starting the Pyramids. I'd pick whichever city can do it the fastest. I'll be very surprised if Pyramids + Oracle is still possible at this stage.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

The +100% from the stone is not applied to the overflow?

I assume it is, but it's applied to normal hammers too. Maybe we're talking about different things. When I read your message, I interpreted it like this.

Build an axeman until there's 1 hammer left to complete him. Then switch to a phalanx and do the same. Then switch to a scout and do the same ...​

Now let's assume that once the stone is hooked up, you're generating 15 hammers per turn (maybe not realistic, but it makes the math easier). That gets doubled to 30 hammers per turn, so your queue should like something like this:

Axeman (1)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)
The Pyramids (15)​

Turn 1 you finish the axeman. One hammer goes into the axe, 14 hammers overflow.

Turn 2 you finish the phalanx. One hammer goes into the phalanx, 14 more hammers overflow for a total overflow of 28.

Turn 3 you finish the scout. One hammer goes into the scout, 14 more hammers overflow for a total overflow of 42.

Turn 4 42 hammers of accumulated overflow plus 15 of regular production go into The Pyramids, but they get doubled for a total of 57 * 2 = 114 hammers in The Pyramids at the end of turn 4.

Now what I'm suggesting is that if we had skipped at that rigamarole with the axeman, phalanx, and scout and simply built The Pyramids for 4 turns, we'd have 4 * 15 * 2 = 120 hammers in The Pyramids at the end of turn 4. So we didn't gain any overflow. We actually lost 6 hammers.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One REALLY BIG problem with that,

Axeman (1)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)
The Pyramids (15)

The total Overflow is Capped, so you will have 15 overflow at the end (30 Pyramid Hammers

The way to do it is

Axeman (1)
The Pyramids (15)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)

Whip and let overflow apply

The Pyramids (11)
Phalanx (1)
Scout (1)

Then rearrange

Phalanx (1)
The Pyramids (11)
Scout (1)

Whip and let overflow apply

Pyramids (6)
Scout (1)

And just Finish the Scout, Whipping it isn't worth it


Final thought, as Eggman said, Pyramids+Oracle will be hard, and I'm thinking abondoning the Oracle may be the way to go, since it is the one you are most likely to lose (No meditation yet, right, and Saladin near Marble).. By concentrating on the Pyramids in Athens, we get an Easy GE to build the GLibrary in Red dot after we have used Police State Axes to wipe out the Chinese. We then Convert to Representation and work on an SE, racing to ?Cats then Maces? through Standard Techs.

Also By concentrating on the Pyramids in Athens, and Dropping the Oracle, Sparta is freed up to produce Workers to help the Pyramids or Units to help the War.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

The total Overflow is Capped, so you will have 15 overflow at the end (30 Pyramid Hammers

OK, but either way, I think we agree that normal overflow gains you nothing. What I was really trying to demonstrate is that you need to whip in order to make this approach worthwhile.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Just remember in your calculations that Chopping Forests only gives you 20 before Mathematics.

Athens does seem the best candidate for the Whip-overflow construction technique, but do you think that Sparta with its Cow and Wheat would have enough food to do whips as well? I'm of the oppinion that if you can pull-off the pyramids in Sparta, you should, due to GP-point purity issues.

But I suppose it could work just fine to build it in Athens.

 

[Nares]

Just remember in your calculations that Chopping Forests only gives you 20 before Mathematics.

Yes, but with Stone, it would be 40 per chop.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I like to do my calculations and comparision in base-hammers invested.