ALC Game #9: Incas/Huayna Capac

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: to 1300 AD

What, I can't take part of the weekend off? Sheesh.

The round started off with me doing my best to take everyone's advice regarding tech trading and so on. I decided to keep Alexander, Cyrus, and Napoleon out of the loop. Tough luck, guys. I also decided to court Frederick and prop up both Hatshepsut and Washington, while keeping Cyrus as neutral as possible.

I tried out Cabert's tech trading suggestions. Washington proved to be a much harder bargainer than you supposed, dude:

The suggested deal with Frederick went off without a hitch--I even got him to throw in some pocket change:

Meanwhile, I went back to Hatty and made a deal that I think is in both our best interests:

Sweet. I also cancelled my Open Borders agreement with Alexander. He had a couple of Galleys sniffing around my shores, and the last thing I needed was a Greek city in my backyard, especially since I had yet to finish settling my continent. Speaking of which, I founded my next city, following Cabledawg's suggested site:

I was going to place the city where Pogel originally had it, 2 tiles south of this location on the coast. Then I realized that to claim the iron, Ironville South had missed that gold mine; in addition, Cabledawg's points about chaining irrigation across this area made sense.

I also followed the advice regarding research, that is, to bee-line to Liberalism. I decided to follow Cabledawg's suggested gambit of leaving Philosophy until next-to-last. Meanwhile, I kept checking the diplomacy screen to see what other techs the AI civs were researching. When one of my friends (Hatty, Freddy, or Georgie-boy) grabbed a desireable one, I swooped in. Ergo:

Hatshepsut and Alexander were back at one another's throats again, surprise surprise. Alex definitely had the upper hand--he razed another one of Hatty's cities. There's actually three tiles in a row in the northern tundra with city ruins on them! I think they were all Egyptian, and all razed by Alex.

Alex swung by to ask me to join in the fun on his side, but as I mentioned, I had decided to side with Hatty. So when she came calling...

I thought about it and agreed. I wasn't really ready for full hostilities, but then again, it was going to be hard for Alexander to get to me in force. All the same, I built another Caravel in Tiwanaku and a Galley in Lonely Mountain in order to protect my northern coast. Good thing, too; Alex did attempt to land two Galleys carrying 4 Horse Archers there. My Caravel managed to sink them both. Phew!

I also joined Frederick in his war with Napoleon. Obviously it's a phony war and will remain so for some time. But it keeps Frederick happy with me, and keeps some of my rivals on the other continent preoccupied. Washington actually managed to keep alive this round, despite the beating he's taken from Napoleon. He's down to two cities, the poor sap.

In addition, I engineered things so that Cuzco produced the next great person rather than Machu Picchu. I was hoping for a Great Prophet, but I would have been content with the other two possibilities, a Great Engineer or a Great Scientist. I got the Prophet. He could have helped research Divine Right, but I already had 2 religions. What I really wanted was money:

There we go, two shrines. Nice for a financial leader, no?

And I continued settling my continent. I placed another city on the far west coast where it could claim two of the spice tiles as well as the fish. Hmmm, spices and fish... what should I call this city?

Meanwhile, Hatty is proving to be a very handy tech trading partner.

Too bad I'll eventually have to kill her.

And my last city was at long last founded in the center of the continent to lay claim to the copper, a spare flood plain, and a cow tile:

As you can see, I just about had Liberalism in the bag. Frederick never did trad Philosophy to me; he's probably building Angkor Wat. I researched it on my own, assisted by whipping Universities in Cuzco and Machu Picchu. On the turn that finished the round, I had my reward:

Of course I chose Astronomy! The immediate attraction was the inter-continental trade and Galleons, but I'll soon get Observatories in my best commerce cities as well.

Speaking of scientific advances, on the same turn, my next Great Person appeared--a Great Scientist in Machu Picchu. I sent him to the capital, Cuzco, with the idea of building my second academy; however, he will also pop most of Printing Press. I left him waiting for my decision in the capital. Thoughts?

Below is the saved game file. But keep reading! To assist us with our debates and decision making, I'm going to add another post with a few screen shots revealing the state of the world in 1300 AD.

 

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 1300 AD

So here's some more grist for the mill.

First of all, here are the active resource trades I have going on:

Yeah, I traded with Cyrus. He has marble! It could come in handy soon. Of course, Alexander also has marble, which I plan on prying from his cold, dead hands. When I do that, Cyrus gets cut off. I like the idea of some of his cities suddenly becoming unhappy and unhealthy when i do that. Bwa-ha-ha-ha.

George and Hatty can't afford much, of course, but I decided to take what I could get. If and when they have more cash, I'll cancel the deal and renegotiate it--same with everyone else.

Here is the power graph:

Hmm, okay, Alexander is way ahead. Then again, if he's top dog, why hasn't he crushed Hatshepsut yet?

Now that I have Galleons, I'm anticipating invading the other continent. I have one Galleon already, a Galley that I upgraded, and I hope to build several more. My cities all have a few units in their build queues. Yes, I'm anticipating a change to the war civics (Vassalage and Theocracy) shortly to churn them out. So in a way, my position on the power chart is deceptive. Just a little.

I'm even putting a few things on hold for this. My instinct was to start building Libraries and Universities so as to get Oxford underway, but that would preoccupy most of my cities for some time. I have a big advantage on Alexander tech-wise, and I need to move quickly to take make the most of it. The economy could be better, with more Markets and Courthouses, but it's at a healthy 60%.

Now, I've never tried a cross-continental invasion this early in my development before. I can build Macemen and, thanks to a late tech trade with Frederick, Pikemen. I had to pay steeply for Engineering (Paper, Drama, and 170 gold), but I really wanted Pikemen to counter Alex's Horse Archers. I'm researching Guilds for Knights, but I could change that if someone has a better idea. I think Knights are better than the other immediate option, however--Gunpowder for those mediocre Musketmen.

I was thinking of shipping over a couple of pillaging stacks (a Maceman, a Horse Archer or Knight, and a Pikeman) to wreak havok on Alexander's economy, going after those two Iron mines and three horse pastures in particular. Meanwhile, I'd build up a larger force to start taking cities; I thought Elephantine would make a good beachhead, since it's so close and easy to reinforce. I'd appreciate feedback and advice on this.

Anyway, here are some maps to complete this debriefing. First off, here's my continent, now fully occupied with 11 cities:

And the northern Greco-Egyptian continent:

There are some very nice resources up there--marble, as I mentioned, and wine, too, along with sheep, deer, clams, and crabs. My cities are already running into health problems, and taking that continent will help with them a great deal. But no Calendar resources! Surprising.

And finally, here's a pretty good look at the other continent, thanks to several map trades (it's how I made back the gold I gave to Freddy):

Poor Washington--Napoleon has taken no less than 4 of his cities, leaving lonesome George with only two! It sucks to be his neighbour. I mean, he and Frederick share the same religion. Normally that's a guarantee of AI friendship in this game. But not with the little emperor! Ah well, if everyone on the other continent is at one another's throats, it suits me just fine. I have my own continent to conquer.

And that's what I hope to start doing in the next round, with your help!

 

[aelf]

Hopefully Napoleon stays as the biggest on the other continent. That way, when you call for a vote some time after you've conquered the nearby continent, Freddy and hopefully Cyrus will vote for you. Finally, a diplomatic victory

I'm not trying to sell the idea to you. It just seems to be the most efficient way possible to win this game

 

[Cabledawg]

Good job. Looked at the save and theres an large Island East of the other continent with Fish, Iron, room for a windmill/mine and cottages. Noone can get to it before Astro. Make a settler/worker/Mace and send those suckers over. Its a big enough island where it could have a future resource. With the fish, you can whip a courthouse and itll be paying for itself within 30 turns of settling....less if you get a couple of missionaries over there asap.

I would definately start on Alex sooner rather than later...the other continent could prolly care less about him anyway. You also wouldnt have to have a heavy home defense as noone except Alex can reach you.....and if station 2 galleons up north, they can take out any galleys coming down the coast.

 

[TheArchduke]

Nice work.

And look forward to Warlords, there you get those awesome trebutchets with engineering.

I think that you should add one or two markets to your shrine cities if you haven´t and built the occasional courthouse, but definetly go for the invasion now whilst you have the tech advantage. You can give yourself a sciene break after Alex!

 

[Sisiutil]

Good job. Looked at the save and theres an large Island East of the other continent with Fish, Iron, room for a windmill/mine and cottages. Noone can get to it before Astro. Make a settler/worker/Mace and send those suckers over. Its a big enough island where it could have a future resource. With the fish, you can whip a courthouse and itll be paying for itself within 30 turns of settling....less if you get a couple of missionaries over there asap.

I would definately start on Alex sooner rather than later...the other continent could prolly care less about him anyway. You also wouldnt have to have a heavy home defense as noone except Alex can reach you.....and if station 2 galleons up north, they can take out any galleys coming down the coast.

Ah, yes, I spotted that island, of course, and forgot to mention it in my round summary. Frankly, I'm torn. On the one hand, it's sooooooo tempting, since I'm the only one who can reach it right now. On the other hand, frankly, it seems like a distraction. The big mission is taking the northern continent while trying to also ramp up my economy and research. I suppose if I was hyped for a domination win it could be crucial, but I'm thinking this game will either go diplomatic, as aelf's suggesting, or space race. I wouldn't put Napoleon past attempting an invasion, but I should have Frigates or Destroyers aplenty to hold him off.

Regarding your other point: Yeah, I was thinking that with Galleons providing defense as well as transportation, Alex is gonna find it hard to sneak up on me--especially since with Galleys he has only one approach, which I can easily choke with ships. (Sidebar: with the slagging that navies take in Civ IV, it's cool to see ships playing such an important role this time.)

 

[Sisiutil]

Nice work.

And look forward to Warlords, there you get those awesome trebutchets with engineering.

I think that you should add one or two markets to your shrine cities if you haven´t and built the occasional courthouse, but definetly go for the invasion now whilst you have the tech advantage. You can give yourself a sciene break after Alex!

Lessee... yep, the shrine cities (Cuzco, Tikanawa) have markets, and Machu Picchu is building one! That's another attraction of Guilds--besides Knights, and can also build Grocers in the commerce cities. Plus a couple of my cities would benefit from workshops, which Guilds boost, IIRC.

 

[cabert]

I like Aelf's proposition!
Not as much teching required than for a space race, not as much war
= way to go.

To make sure for a few votes, it's now time to crush alex.
He's powerful because he has so many big cities.
Take a few, and he's gone.

I'd start teching towards chemistry (frigates!).
I'm pretty sure you can trade for guilds, most AIs prioritize it.

What to build is not clear IMHO :
I'd go for half units/half libraries+universities + observatories big commerce cities.

 

[Killroyan]

Nice buildingset Sisiutil. Land is covered now, you have the most important techs and you can start preparing for your invasion. Get some units so your power graph rises again. Also renegotiate your deals. You are selling resources for like 1 gold which could be easily 8-12 gold per resource, netting you in 20-30 gold extra per turn!!! Your diplomacy approach looks good. If you kick Alex's behind then you really have a good chance to get that victory.

 

[voek]

Diplo is by far the easiest. Certainly with this world situation. Assuming you can take over Alex you will be the biggest, followed by Nappy. Everybody hates Nappy. Hatty can be destroyed, but she can also vote for you, so it actualy doesn't matter.

About the techpath concerning knights/guilds. Sure, why not you are outteching everybody and this way you can go the 'free merchant' route, giving you some nice coin for upgrades. After that beeline to mass media.

 

[patagonia]

I'd be tempted to send a settling party over to the island Cabledawg mentioned. It extends your "sphere of influence" out to the other continent, would probably act as a distraction for Nappy if he does decide to attack you, and has the added advantage of being within bomber range of him (radio's on the beeline to mass media).

As far as attacking Alex goes, take lots and lots of pikes. He's got access to both elephants and horses at the moment, which means his land will be swarming with cavalry, so you'll need plenty to protect your cats and maces from their attacks. Taking some horse archers to neutralise his cats is probably a good idea too.

I wouldn't waste units on advance pillaging stacks, since he tends to have fairly large mobile stacks of his own and your pillagers probably won't last long enough to pay for themselves in terms of the damage they cause (denying him metal is going to be particularly tricky with that iron resource slap bang in the middle of the island; hitting the horses looks a lot easier though). Knights won't be massively useful with all those elephants about, but with their immunity to first-strikes they do a fairly good job of taking on longbows (unless those are massively promoted like the ones in the Ironman challenge).

 

[voek]

I don't see the point of settling the small island. Only for domination it seems a option when it can help with invasion. Otherwise it means high distance cost and no value at all. I think you have all the needed resources with 2 continents under control (in term).

 

[cabert]

right!
If you go for diplo (easiest IMHO + not too frequent in the ALC serie) you need pop, not land.

 

[aelf]

Don't invade Nappy if you want to win through the UN. It's good to ensure that he's your rival in the elections. However, if he attacks Cyrus or Freddy, be prepared to defend them or change plans and aim for a space win.

 

[curtadams]

I think Alex will be a fairly tough nut militarily. The problem is that he has elephants, which are an unbelievably good anti-cavalry unit, plus mucho phalanxes. Knights are going to be almost useless. Lame as they are, musketmen would be better than knights since they bypass all the bonuses.

IME he actually knows how to mix units and if you're facing a stack with elephants, macemen, and longbows there's no good attack unit before grenadiers. I had one nasty experience when Alex DOW'd me on a Highland map. I was ahead technologically and figured I had nothing to worry about. Then a 20+ unit well-mixed stack showed up on a resource colony of mine. I literally had nothing that could attack except Grenadiers and I didn't have enough of those to attack with. He obliterated a city with 8 defenders, mostly Grenadiers. Fortunately the stack largly burnt itself out in the process and I was able to clean it out over the next few turns. Still, it left me with a healthy respect for Alex's military.

I think you need to scout him out some with caravels and some scouts in Hattie's cities just to find out what to build. Actually, an expiditionary force would be good because she probably needs the help. Alex's continent is bigger than yours and if he takes out Hattie he'll be quite the headache.

When it comes to invading, Elephantine is perfect - close to you and far from his core. Keep Elephantine, of course, but I would actually give the next city or two back to Hattie - you'll still be able to obliterate her when the time comes and she can make better use of the cities, with less overhead and some culture from holding them herself in the past.

I don't favor going after that *smallish* island. It's two distant fishing villages and no resources you don't already have. Alex needs to be a priority. Based on him having a complete set of counters and your relative power graphs I don't think you'll have anything to spare.

 

[carl corey]

How did Frederick build Dusseldorf? It's on a small island and I don't see how he could get to it with a settler if he doesn't have Astronomy... Unless... he had a scout in a caravel which popped a settler from a hut there. If he has astronomy then it's useless to think about settling the distant island.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Bravo, well done to date.

Do not settle the distrant island; it is a distraction. All resources should be focused on Alex's destruction - sooner rather than later. If you end up going for domination you can easily conquer the weak cities the AI's will build on that island.

Elephantine is the logical gateway to Alex. When you later attack his heartland, a punitive pillaging of his ivory and horses could be important.

Grenadiers and Frigates ate a key tech priority.

This should be fun - an early continental invasion with maceman!!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

How did Frederick build Dusseldorf? It's on a small island and I don't see how he could get to it with a settler if he doesn't have Astronomy...

It's not isolated, though - I think he can get there by having an open borders agreement with Napoleon, crossing into Nappy's blue ocean tile, and from there to the coast of the island.

 

[Sisiutil]

It's not isolated, though - I think he can get there by having an open borders agreement with Napoleon, crossing into Nappy's blue ocean tile, and from there to the coast of the island.

I have confirmed in this game that Galleys can indeed traverse ocean tiles if they're within your own cultural borders OR the cultural borders of a nation with whom you have OB, so VoU is correct here.

The problem for Freddy is that he's now at war with Napoleon and Dusseldorf is cut off until Astronomy, making it hard to reinforce. I won't be surprised to see its colour change from grey to blue before too long.

 

[carl corey]

Thanks for the answers. I saw what you found earlier with the galleys, but I didn't think the island was close enough and I couldn't check the save then.

A thing about the power of the navy: in a Warlord game I played the Romans and wiped out three civs from my continent leaving me the only one to settle it. The good thing is I beelined for Astronomy and Chemistry and I'm now building the Navy of Doom. Any attack from the other continent will be swiftly crushed by my Frigates, while I only have to prepare a small attacking army to take whatever land I need for domination. Navy Power! I don't even care if I'm at war with everybody since they will be so backward navy-wise that it just won't matter how many ships they have.