Alexander the Great vs. China

[civ_king]

30:40 would mean ratio

... sarcasm...

 

[vogtmurr]

It's just a game scenario, in CIV 4, I can play as Alexander and beat China harshly until their leader begs me to spare his life, I would shout at QIn Shi Huang (and any others) when he betrayed me and took over my cities. Unless there is a real historical discussion then I would stand up to argue about the truth. Besides, I would also like to see a superb game scenario that really could simulate the past history, but until now, the only game that could simulate battle with decent accuracy and realistism in my opinion is the TOTAL WAR series.

So far as I know, the earliest account of the so-called Greek Fire was during the siege of Constantinople by the muslims at 674 AD.

Yup, I missed out the charcoal. But saltpeter and sulfur were already known by Chinese at that time and was used as the materials for their fire weapons. But they just didn't realize that those saltpeters, sulfur and charcoal could be mixed and produce a revolutionary weapons.

Cipher_101, I need to clarify that the original intent was not to create a game, but that is where this may eventually go, because once the other pieces are in place, that is a logical and interesting way to resolve it. The real goal was to do a little historical research and hypothesize how this might have turned out. This would have been a unique opportunity with a pause in the Warring States before Qin's climb to ultimate power.

I don't find it hard to believe that the Chinese could burn sulfur and oil to create a highly inflammable compound with irritating smoke, but to have that and saltpeter, a rarely naturally occuring mineral salt before its value was known, is something I need to understand a little more. A mere technicality perhaps, since inflammable substances were use in antiquity before the more refined Greek Fire became a state secret of the Byzantines. The Chinese of this day may have more proficiency of it, but do you have details to justify how and when ?

So given the response in my previous posts, some assumptions of implicit superiority seem overstated - do you think that any of your percentages and probabilities would change ?

 

[aelf]

Right, the initial percentage sign threw me off.

 

[Cipher_101]

As far as I know, all of Alexander's weapons were iron, including the Kopis and Xiphos short swords and spear points. It was not inferior iron, but it was not steel. Only the armour, shields and helmets were maybe bronze, because of it's traditional virtues for that purpose.

Any sources or evidences to support your statements? It's not that I don't believe at what you say, but it's better that I could directly access to the articles which has more academic authority, and it's more convincing.

I didn't read any of your statement regarding the quenched hardened steel, and quenched hardened steel was still considered steel despite of its inferior quality. And there were plenty of iron tools excavated which was dated as lately as the Spring and Autumn Period( which was 300 years earlier than the warring states period), including swords and spears. Here is one of my source:
http://www.pep.com.cn/gzls/jszx/kb/ls2bx/jsys/200801/t20080116_438560.htm

This is not just Macedonia vs. China. I would propose that the following be considered, and it is open to others for debate;

The Celts on the lower Danube, in Iberia, and Gaul were already making raw steel weapons such as heavy broadswords that did not break. Around this time, even without Alexander, the first encounters with the Gauls were taking place. And the Romans/Samnites had steel or at least good wrought iron swords and armor. I'm not saying Alex would re-equip with those, but some elements of these would.

Regarding bows, there were specialized archers such as Cretan bowmen that were as famously skilled as the Balearic slingers. There were other specialized missile troops, horse archers, and slingers such as the Acarnanians within Greece, but javelin armed peltasts and Thessalian cavalry are perhaps their best known missile troops. The majority of Persian archers at this time, as someone pointed out, were not especially great, unless they were better trained Immortals or Kardaksha. Alexander also encountered a type of Indian longbowmen, and I believe some Nubian skirmishers were similarly equipped. So some small contingents of these may accompany his army.
The Scythian horse archers were good, but regarding other archers, the possession of composite bows does not itself guarantee superiority, since some were relatively small. Don't you think some of these missile troops would have been capable against the crossbowmen and heavy Chinese infantry ?

A long supply train would include some of the powerful ballistas on carts. These are no heavier than a loaded supply wagon, and maybe a few catapults, in the 60 lb. projectile range, could be towed by 4 oxen with a crew helping it over rough ground. The larger siege engines and towers would not be transported. Whenever the Greeks needed siege materials they built it on site. That should be relatively well known.

His is a multi-national army about 50% Macedonian-and it's immediate Greek allies. So there may be some challenges of command and control, but his legendary status is confirmed. I'm not willing to entertain that his volunteer army has divided loyalties so far from home.

OH, I see, so it's a mistake at the beginning, it's not "Alexander vs China" but "Alexander + Persian + Scythian+Cretan + Celts + Gauls + Minor Asian + Central Asian+ Any other old world nations vs. China". And Alex assembled these multinational army to engage in his holy mission to conquer China? Haha, hilarious. Anyway, I really appreciate your imagination.

By the way, there is no evidence that Alex's army was eager to follow him to pursue that far. Instead, a man called Coenus persuaded Alexander to stop advancing further into India, and he agreed.

On the subject of the Tao of warfare, you should also consider:
I think the resolve of Chinese resistance might be high initially, but compared to the cruel measures and massacres the Warring States practised on each other, and by their own generals on occasion, Alex may appear the lesser evil to some. That is a form of psychological warfare, and I think one or two minor victories might establish his reputation, so that some of Qin's less happy subject allies may be less than enthused about being used as cannon fodder against a liberator.

Yeah, my friend, you are pretty clever, this is an incredible idea. I can almost imagine the situation as below:
Alexander: &*^%*&..( Salute, the sovereign king of China, I am your ally)
Chinese king: *&*(^*(&k..( Huh, what is he saying?)
Chinese advisor: *(&^^%#$o..( Don't know, Sir)
Alexander: @!I^^G*..( My army is now at your doorway, but I believe sincerely that you are my potential friend, let's make ally together)
Chinese king: &#^&*#..( What does he said? Why is he looked so different from us?)
Advisor: *%^&*#&$.. (he might be cursing you, Sir..It is an ancient curse dating from the Xia Dynasty, and he looked like the descendents of Chi You who are coming to take revenge for his ancestors)
Chinese king: *&(**#&$(...(Oh my good Heaven, soldiers, cut his head down.)
Alexander: &#&&^*&@#!!!

Ok, let's take it seriously. Alexander might be able to make contact with the Chinese kingdoms with the help of other surrounding tribes who already had had military and commercial contact with the warring states. And yes, I have a high confidence that he has a high diplomatic skill which can be seen by the way he tamed his subjects by bribe and marriage, and he had such a great philosopher and thinker as his teacher: Aristotle.

But for China it's different case, in warring states is not merely the case of Ceaser vs. Gaul or Alex vs. Persia or China vs. the ancestors of Huns. Despite all the battles and wars, the political environment of China at the warring states period was quite complex and interesting. And it's really a pleasure to read the classic chinese history books, such as " tactics of the warring states战国策", "Zuo Zhuan左传", "Spring and Autumn春秋", "Records of History史记", to understand their diplomatic skill, their outstanding manuevre of the power of language to achieve their goals, and their cunning and wisdom. It's just as exciting as ( if not more) the Herodotus "the histories".

If Alexander really could reach the doorway of China, I think he might be able to form Alliance with either Qin or the declining Zhou court. But again I would say that, both countries would just treat him as a pawn to achieve their goals.

I don't find it hard to believe that the Chinese could burn sulfur and oil to create a highly inflammable compound with irritating smoke, but to have that and saltpeter, a rarely naturally occuring mineral salt before its value was known, is something I need to understand a little more. A mere technicality perhaps, since inflammable substances were use in antiquity before the more refined Greek Fire became a state secret of the Byzantines. The Chinese of this day may have more proficiency of it, but do you have details to justify how and when ?

I wouldn't bother even though there is a game called " Alex vs China: total war" comes out. I just want to discuss the historical truth with you and others despite all unpleasant words and responses.

Regarding the firearms, I had already put the source at at my post before, you can just log on to those sources to clarify it. And sorry but I just don't have much time to discuss those " technical" or the "chemistry " thing. Maybe you can just look into the encyclopedia.

So given the response in my previous posts, some assumptions of implicit superiority seem overstated - do you think that any of your percentages and probabilities would change ?

Maybe it's a little out of topic. The 30:40 that I posted was referring to percentage, and the bowmen that I mentioned included chariot archers, that what's the 40% goes. And the rest of 20% was referred to the other types of long-ranged weapons such as catapult.

The reason that I used percentage to express my reckoning is that it's at least more precise than just using the ambiguous word. But again, my figure will not be 100% accurate because I just made a rough referrence to the Qin's Terracotta Army and some texts.

And I had already stated that the percentage that I stated before was just the percentage of the most likely percentage when both army had a first encounter. It is not the fixed number throughout all countries and regions. Besides, there are more and more factors that would result in other percentage, just some simple logic, if in the first encounter the crossbowmen were flank attacked by Alex's army and lost all of them. Then in the second encounter the CHinese would decrease the proportion of crossbowmen in their army as a strategic consideration.

 

[nokmirt]

Where would that have gotten him? Nowhere. O.W Wolters;



The Malacca Straits were only opened around the fourth century AD to trade and the Isthmus of Kra only became a viable route for large scale trade in the first century AD with the growth of Funan. The one route didn't exist and the other was not capable of sustaining a large army for the trek let alone getting the ships together on the other side of the Isthmus required to get Alexander to China.

Even assuming he manages to reach the Bay of Bengal which is a stretch considering the logistics, the relatively underdeveloped parts of India he would have to pass around and assuming somehow they can round the tip and then wait for however long for the winds to change.... he still has to hike a not inconsiderable distance which was not sufficiently populated to support a large army to each "China".



How can it be "neo-colonialism?" Shouldn't it be "proto-before-colonialism-was-concieved-and-Europe-existed-colonialism?"

You are probably right but stranger things have happened.

 

[nokmirt]

... sarcasm...

no none intended, the truth is that it stands for ratio

 

[vogtmurr]

Any sources or evidences to support your statements? ....I didn't read any of your statement regarding the quenched hardened steel, and quenched hardened steel was still considered steel despite of its inferior quality...... And there were plenty of iron tools excavated ....Here is one of my source: http://www.pep.com.cn/gzls/jszx/kb/l...116_438560.htm

I've provided many statements with wiki quotes you apparently didn't read. You'll forgive me if I chose the internationally collaborative wiki site over the People's Education Press. History_of_ferrous_metallurgy

....Cast iron is rather brittle and unsuitable for striking implements. It can, however, be decarburized to steel or wrought iron by heating it in air for several days. In China, these ironworking methods spread northward, and by 300 BC, iron was the material of choice throughout China for most tools and weapons. A mass grave in Hebei province, dated to the early third century BC, contains several soldiers buried with their weapons and other equipment. The artifacts recovered from this grave are variously made of wrought iron, cast iron, malleabilized cast iron, and quench-hardened steel

It is not clear whether these methods are the Wu method of casting or the laborious heating in air for several days. I think you agreed that 'quench hardened steel' is misleading; since further reading reveals it is actually pig-iron or wrought iron with a hardened edge. I acknowledged that during this period (403-221 BC) China mastered this. We're not sure when it became widespread but I was willing to give Qin the benefit of the doubt.

From the article it is also obvious this was not a Chinese monopoly. India actually led the world in the creation of true steel, but in Europe it was pioneered by the Celts around the same time.

Buchwald[5] identifies a sword of ca. 300 BC found in Krenovica, Moravia as an early example of Noric steel due to a chemical composition consistent with Erzberg ore.

At least you pointed out that the Warring States were still completing the transition from bronze. The Greeks retained bronze armor only. So let me help u along here:

Conclusion: the overused axiom that Chinese metal is superior at this time is a myth.
Weapon materials technology and armour: +10% to Alexander's Greeks and his Celtic-Italian auxillaries.

OH, I see, so it's a mistake at the beginning, it's not "Alexander vs China" but "Alexander + Persian + Scythian+Cretan + Celts + Gauls + Minor Asian + Central Asian+ Any other old world nations vs. China". And Alex assembled these multinational army to engage in his holy mission to conquer China? Haha, hilarious. Anyway, I really appreciate your imagination.

By the way, there is no evidence that Alex's army was eager to follow him to pursue that far. Instead, a man called Coenus persuaded Alexander to stop advancing further into India, and he agreed.

It's only your mistake at the beginning. He did just conquer a huge empire much bigger than Qin but I wasn't going to overplay that. I was proposing an army dominated by Macedonians-Greeks with contingents of allies, mercenaries, and other volunteers attracted by the promise of glory and riches, smaller than the total force Qin could raise. Would you be happier if this was just Macedonia, a mere fragment compared to Qin ? Don't pretend that I was proposing Alexander's continued march from the Indus valley in 326 BC. But if they had, they would have found Qin in a weaker state.

When Alexander left Babylon to march across deserts and mountains he arrived at the Indus valley with a bigger army than he started with, by integrating some elements of the Persian satraps. Yet some find it impossible to believe he could make the shorter distance along river courses between Baktra and Qin. The following extract from Wiki shows that Alexander could be ruthless as well as magnaminous in dealing with some of the most difficult enemies he would face. You should read up on the campaign on the Danube before this adventure even started - clearly he dealt effectively with more enemies than just 'peaceful Persians'.

Spoiler :

Invasion of India
See also: Alexander's Conflict with the Kambojas and Battle of the Hydaspes
After the death of Spitamenes and his marriage to Roxana (Roshanak in Bactrian) to cement his relations with his new Central Asian satrapies, in 326 BC Alexander was finally free to turn his attention to the Indian subcontinent. Alexander invited all the chieftains of the former satrapy of Gandhara, in the north of what is now Pakistan, to come to him and submit to his authority. Ambhi (Greek: Omphis), ruler of Taxila, whose kingdom extended from the Indus to the Jhelum (Greek:Hydaspes), complied. But the chieftains of some hill clans including the Aspasioi and Assakenoi sections of the Kambojas (classical names), known in Indian texts as Ashvayanas and Ashvakayanas (names referring to the equestrian nature of their society from the Sanskrit root word Ashva meaning horse), refused to submit.

Alexander personally took command of the shield-bearing guards, foot-companions, archers, Agrianians and horse-javelin-men and led them against the clans—the Aspasioi of Kunar/Alishang valleys, the Guraeans of the Guraeus (Panjkora) valley, and the Assakenoi of the Swat and Buner valleys. Writes one modern historian: "They were brave people and it was hard work for Alexander to take their strongholds, of which Massaga and Aornus need special mention."[47][48] A fierce contest ensued with the Aspasioi in which Alexander himself was wounded in the shoulder by a dart but eventually the Aspasioi lost the fight; 40,000 of them were enslaved. The Assakenoi faced Alexander with an army of 30,000 cavalry, 38,000 infantry and 30 elephants.[49] They had fought bravely and offered stubborn resistance to the invader in many of their strongholds like cities of Ora, Bazira and Massaga. The fort of Massaga could only be reduced after several days of bloody fighting in which Alexander himself was wounded seriously in the ankle. When the Chieftain of Massaga fell in the battle, the supreme command of the army went to his old mother Cleophis (q.v.) who also stood determined to defend her motherland to the last extremity. The example of Cleophis assuming the supreme command of the military also brought the entire women of the locality into the fighting.[50][51] Alexander could only reduce Massaga by resorting to political strategem and actions of betrayal. According to Curtius: "Not only did Alexander slaughter the entire population of Massaga, but also did he reduce its buildings to rubbles." A similar slaughter then followed at Ora, another stronghold of the Assakenoi.

In the aftermath of general slaughter and arson committed by Alexander at Massaga and Ora, numerous Assakenians people fled to a high fortress called Aornos. Alexander followed them close behind their heels and captured the strategic hill-fort but only after the fourth day of a bloody fight. The story of Massaga was repeated at Aornos and a similar carnage of the tribal-people followed here too.

Writing on Alexander's campaign against the Assakenoi, Victor Hanson comments: "After promising the surrounded Assacenis their lives upon capitulation, he executed all their soldiers who had surrendered. Their strongholds at Ora and Aornus were also similarly stormed. Garrisons were probably all slaughtered.”[52]

Sisikottos, or Sashigupta who had helped Alexander in this campaign, was made the governor of Aornos. According to H. C. Seth and Ranajit Pal, he was the same as Chandragupta Maurya. After reducing Aornos, Alexander crossed the Indus and fought and won an epic battle against a local ruler Porus (original Indian name Raja Puru), who ruled a region in the Punjab, in the Battle of Hydaspes in 326 BC. [where Alexander was wounded again, possibly accepting a challenge from Porus]

After the battle, Alexander was greatly impressed by Porus for his bravery in battle, and therefore made an alliance with him and appointed him as satrap of his own kingdom, even adding some land he did not own before. Alexander then named one of the two new cities that he founded, Bucephala, in honor of the horse who had brought him to India, who had died during the Battle of Hydaspes.[53] Alexander continued on to conquer all the headwaters of the Indus River.

East of Porus' kingdom, near the Ganges River (original Indian name Ganga), was the powerful Nanda Empire of Magadha and Gangaridai Empire of Bengal. Fearing the prospects of facing other powerful Indian armies and exhausted by years of campaigning, his army mutinied at the Hyphasis River (the modern Beas River) refusing to march further east. This river thus marks the easternmost extent of Alexander's conquests

Alexander spoke to his army and tried to persuade them to march further into India but Coenus pleaded with him to change his opinion and return, the men, he said, "longed to again see their parents, their wives and children, their homeland". Alexander, seeing the unwillingness of his men agreed and turned south. Along the way his army conquered the Malli clans (in modern day Multan), reputed to be among the bravest and most warlike peoples in South Asia. During a siege, Alexander jumped into the fortified city alone with only two of his bodyguards and was wounded seriously by a Mallian arrow.[55] His forces, believing their king dead, took the citadel and unleashed their fury on the Malli who had taken refuge within it, perpetrating a massacre, sparing no man, woman or child.[56] However, due to the efforts of his surgeon, Kritodemos of Kos, Alexander survived the injury.[57] Following this, the surviving Malli surrendered to Alexander's forces, and his beleaguered army moved on, conquering more Indian tribes along the way. He sent much of his army to Carmania (modern southern Iran) with his general Craterus, and commissioned a fleet to explore the Persian Gulf shore under his admiral Nearchus, while he led the rest of his forces back to Persia by the southern route through the Gedrosian Desert (now part of southern Iran and Makran now part of Pakistan).

Yeah, my friend, you are pretty clever, this is an incredible idea. I can almost imagine the situation as below:
Alexander: &*^%*&..( Salute, the sovereign king of China, I am your ally)
Chinese king: *&*(^*(&k..( Huh, what is he saying?)
Chinese advisor: *(&^^%#$o..( Don't know, Sir)

[blah, blah, blah, etc.]

Chinese king: *&(**#&$(...(Oh my good Heaven, soldiers, cut his head down.)
Alexander: &#&&^*&@#!!!

Ok, let's take it seriously. Alexander might be able to make contact with the Chinese kingdoms with the help of other surrounding tribes who already had had military and commercial contact with the warring states. And yes, I have a high confidence that he has a high diplomatic skill which can be seen by the way he tamed his subjects by bribe and marriage, and he had such a great philosopher and thinker as his teacher: Aristotle.
.....
If Alexander really could reach the doorway of China, I think he might be able to form Alliance with either Qin or the declining Zhou court. But again I would say that, both countries would just treat him as a pawn to achieve their goals.

Language barrier might be a problem assuming he doesn't have a single Chinese interpreter amongst the many cultures he's already encountered to get to this point. But this part has always been a question mark for me. I point out the recent death of not-so-popular King Huiwen, the recent bloody subjugation of Shu, and the restive nature of western nomads that Qin never subdued. Apparently not everyone appreciated Qin's overlordhip - it went from the pinnacle of power in 221 BC to non-existence in 206 BC. How about this scenario:

Alexander makes a deal with either Qiang or Yuezhi by promising to attack Qin: 100%
Qin makes a deal with the others to counter this: 100%

Success of Alexander in beating Qin Army: Unknown, but see below

<IF> successful encounter with Qin field army

​

<THEN> dissident Shu elements and nomadic horsemen in Qin army begin to desert: 50%.

​

<AND> Alexander protects Huwien's widow in power struggle, his son marries their daughter, and they found happy dynasty with many children: 25%

​

<OR> War continues with Qin: 75%
<ELSE> War continues with Qin.

When other Warring States try to take advantage of Qin weakness, Alexander becomes protector with united Eurasian army: 50%
<OR>
Alexander gets bogged down fighting Qin, but with other Warring States, use eachother as pawns: 50%

​

<AND>long bloody war when his reinforcements arrive. 50%

​

<OR>He withdraws to Tarim Basin with whatever he can salvage: 25%

​

<OR> Alexander is killed: 25%

​

<AND> his army destroyed: 50%

​

<OR> survivors become mercenaries: 50%

..... I just want to discuss the historical truth with you and others despite all unpleasant words and responses.
..... And sorry but I just don't have much time to discuss those " technical" or the "chemistry " thing. Maybe you can just look into the encyclopedia.

Maybe it's a little out of topic. The 30:40 that I posted was referring to percentage, and the bowmen that I mentioned included chariot archers, that what's the 40% goes. And the rest of 20% was referred to the other types of long-ranged weapons such as catapult.

The reason that I used percentage to express my reckoning is that it's at least more precise than just using the ambiguous word. But again, my figure will not be 100% accurate because I just made a rough referrence to the Qin's Terracotta Army and some texts.

And I had already stated that the percentage that I stated before was just the percentage of the most likely percentage when both army had a first encounter. It is not the fixed number throughout all countries and regions. Besides, there are more and more factors that would result in other percentage, just some simple logic, if in the first encounter the crossbowmen were flank attacked by Alex's army and lost all of them. Then in the second encounter the Chinese would decrease the proportion of crossbowmen in their army as a strategic consideration.

These percentages still don't add up to me, and Terra Cotta army came exactly 100 years later. But how about this:
20% of Qin infantry have bows, other 10% are with chariots or cavalry.
40% of Qin infantry have crossbows of which half are cho ko nu.
From most accounts the crossbow was primary missile weapon, but these ratios would make the presence of bows and the larger crossbows approximately equal.
50% of Qin Field army, and 25% of combined army is armoured.
30% of cavalry are Qin heavy war chariots, numbers unknown, with potential disruptive effect on any infantry except phalanx. 30% are faster chariot archers, 40% of Qin cavalry are horsemen, half with bows.
The bigger crossbows certainly look powerful enough just from their bronze bolts or quarrels. These are from the later Qin dynasty:

Spoiler :

50% chance of powerful ballistas significant in field army, 100% chance in defending or attacking cities
25% chance of 'fire weapons' significant in field army, 50% chance in defending or attacking cities
100% chance of fire weapon producing great heat and smoke, 25% presence of blinding smoke from SO2, 10% presence of extremely irritating smoke from CS2, 10% presence of highly lethal H2S from incomplete combustion of sulfur, affecting Chinese sappers. 50% chance wind blows wrong way, exposing army to toxic levels above 10 ppm, causing disorientation, unconsciousness, and death.

Against Qin's formidable array:

25% of Alexander's infantry and 25% of cavalry have bows.
25% infantry and 50% cavalry are light skirmishers.
50% infantry and 25% cavalry are armoured melee, with high resistance to missiles.
Alexander's bowmen and slingers outrange crossbows: 75%
100% of Alexander's army are veterans. The officers in particular, are familiar with the tactics of almost every organized state in the world, except China.
50% chance of Alexander's ballista and cart-mounted scorpions being significant in field, 100% chance in being present at siege.

That rather interesting hypothesis of Alexander meeting a 12th Century AD Mongol Army illustrated that against such experience and mobility he would probably lose. There is certainly experience here, but not that kind of mobility. It seems the underlying impression is always that he would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Hence, we must agree that maybe Qin could field as much as the historical records allow, without sacrificing their defense against Warring States. To me, this total is maybe two field armies of 120,000, and from 1/4 up to half a million militia/peasant soldiers of varying quality and loyalty, but never all in place at one time.

Since this all started, this thing has a life of it's own, and I'm having trouble leaving it alone . I'm sure we could haggle about this forever, but at some point speculation about the speculation becomes a law of diminishing returns. Your breakdown of the shower, and sauna, Alexander would be subjected to was pretty humorous Maybe we include callisthetics from swinging heavy swords and thrusting with heavy spears, jogging in full armor, friendly accupuncture treatment from cho ko nus, when Alexander's soldiers enter ambush in armed towns, and foot massage when they chase them through city. Just kidding: the potential for high attrition far from home, on strongly defended foreign soil, -10%/year until he secures regional victory. Chance Alexander is assassinated: 25%, and his successor negotiates a withdrawal: 50%, but is attacked en route: 50%.

 

[Masada]

You are probably right but stranger things have happened.

.... Malacca wasn't going to happen you would starve to death for lack of supplies because nothing had developed even assuming you could somehow get through there in the first place. Kra was slightly better but there simply was not the supplies to feed an army which had to wait ~ 6 months for the monsoon winds to change; let alone the ships required to get a large army to China. Even just landing in Bengal wasn't going to get you there... you still had to walk through tract-less jungles to get to a sliver of Modern China which hadn't by that stage even been incorporated into any recognizably Chinese state let alone been developed to anything meaningful. This is somehow assuming that you could traverse by ship the entirety of India.... with a large army considering that the area around the South wasn't exactly developed by any sense of the word.

 

[civ_king]

no none intended, the truth is that it stands for ratio

indeed, I was saying that because the question was sarcasm because I knew that it was ratios...

 

[vogtmurr]

.... Malacca wasn't going to happen you would starve to death for lack of supplies because nothing had developed even assuming you could somehow get through there in the first place. Kra was slightly better but there simply was not the supplies to feed an army which had to wait ~ 6 months for the monsoon winds to change; let alone the ships required to get a large army to China. Even just landing in Bengal wasn't going to get you there... you still had to walk through tract-less jungles to get to a sliver of Modern China which hadn't by that stage even been incorporated into any recognizably Chinese state let alone been developed to anything meaningful. This is somehow assuming that you could traverse by ship the entirety of India.... with a large army considering that the area around the South wasn't exactly developed by any sense of the word.

I agree. I ruled out the southern route immediately, but if he did take it we know he may have gotten India, but would be bogged down after that. I played with the idea of a fleet launched from the Persian Gulf. I think there would be sufficient drive and incentive for a large fleet but would it be galleys or dhow-like ships ? Probably both to some degree - he would have learned from Nearchus. This fleet would be an intersting scenario in the Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal, moving down both coasts of India, after successful trade missions to East Africa and Arabia. But I don't think it would survive the monsoons and scarcities in hostile coastal states, swarms of sampans and light junks in SE Asia, just to face the unknown perils of the South China Sea.

 

[nokmirt]

.... Malacca wasn't going to happen you would starve to death for lack of supplies because nothing had developed even assuming you could somehow get through there in the first place. Kra was slightly better but there simply was not the supplies to feed an army which had to wait ~ 6 months for the monsoon winds to change; let alone the ships required to get a large army to China. Even just landing in Bengal wasn't going to get you there... you still had to walk through tract-less jungles to get to a sliver of Modern China which hadn't by that stage even been incorporated into any recognizably Chinese state let alone been developed to anything meaningful. This is somehow assuming that you could traverse by ship the entirety of India.... with a large army considering that the area around the South wasn't exactly developed by any sense of the word.

All right if he could track through jungle infested India for eight months straight, I am sure he could have done it on the other side of India. And timing is everything, how do you know he's going to get there and have to wait for the monsoon season to end. What if he arrives as the monsoon season ends. Let me guess Masada, would it be sea monsters or harpies that would stop him then?

This scenario of how he gets to China is no different than any other route he could have taken. Any route would be fraught with danger. Also Masada I would love you to tell Alexander himself and Admiral Nearchus it could not be done, they would laugh in your face. Sounds like Communist thinking to me. It reminds me of what they told Franklin D. Roosevelt when he wanted to hit back at Japan after Pearl Harbor, they told him it cannot be done. He stood up from his wheelchair onto on his own two feet, his generals got the message. Masada anything is possible, even when it seems impossible. There are uncountable impossibilities in History which came to be, because men followed their hearts and hid their fears. There is nothing impossible to him who will try-Alexander the Great

Maybe you should start to learn about the kind of dynamite ambition this man really had. The Chinese would really cower in fear, in comparison it would be like what Patton did to the Germans. The Chinese are lucky he died young

 

[Masada]

All right if he could track through jungle infested India for eight months straight, I am sure he could have done it on the other side of India. And timing is everything, how do you know he's going to get there and have to wait for the monsoon season to end. What if he arrives as the monsoon season ends. Let me guess Masada, would it be sea monsters or harpies that would stop him then?

... you have no idea how the winds function do you? This is the typical voyage from the Arabian Gulf to China through the Malacca Strait somewhat possible after the sixth century AD but only practical from the tenth century AD onwards.

(1) The vessel had to leave the Persian Gulf in April in order to reach the west coast of India before May. The months of June, July and August are dangerous and all Indian west ports are generally closed due to the high swell generated by the strong southwest monsoon. If the business was conducted only on the Indian west coast, the vessel could then return to the Persian Gulf or Arabian Sea during the northeast monsoon, the trip thus lasting less than 9 months.

If the destination of the ship lay beyond the west coast and if the captain was fast enough in concluding his business, the vessel had to pass Cape Cormorin (the southern coast of India) before May in order to reach either the Indian east coast and the Gulf of Bengal or the Malay Peninsula before the winds changed. He was then forced to wait in port during the northeast monsoon.

(2) If the captain was good enough (and lucky enough) he could reach Tenasserim in the west peninsular in Malaysia before September. He was then free to conduct his trans-shipment operations to Chinese or Indonesian vessels, which arrived from the east during the northeast monsoon. Indonesian vessels bound for the eastern part of the archipelago were able to sail back to their destination from December. Chinese-bound vessels had to wait until May before being able to return to Canton.

Now you want to know the hitch in all this? The route he talks about did not exist in the way he described it for the following reasons;

1. Malacca was not open to trade;
2. The route would require that the vessel can do the direct route across the Gulf from India to Malaysia which wasn't possible for another six centuries;
3. he supposes that the ships were ~ 6th century and above in technological setup;
4. he supposes that the mariner actually had some knowledge of where he was going and was capable of prompt decisions;
5. he assumes a single vessel for the journey which at full efficiency through an imaginary route (which didn't exist) was going to take 9 months;
6. he supposes that you can travel during the monsoon and actually ride it out which lets face it wasn't possible.

Our problems are that;

1. We are talking about a large army;
2. We are talking about a large fleet;
3. We are therefore talking about a large requirement for supplies which cannot be sourced from cities and towns which don't freaking exist yet: the Chola had inordinate amounts of trouble keeping supplied significantly less men than we are talking about in Sumatra which at the time was at its historic height of wealth and power (i.e it was amongst the wealthiest areas on earth);
4. We are assuming that somehow Alexander and his armies are going to go by sea via a route which usually took 2 years to merely reach China.

Now you might say Masada what about the Isthmus of Kra route? I'll simply say this;

1. Its longer with a compulsory six month to nine month wait for the winds to change no matter what because the winds are even less forgiving;
2. That is in addition to the whole portage issue, you will not get the ships on the other side with the capabilities to even carry a fraction of your soldiers considering how new the route is;
3. Your supply situation is not quite as bad as the Malacca route... but your still talking about a body of soldiers which would probably have outnumbered the entirety of the local population (keeping in mind that Funan at its height was projected to have fewer than 600,000 people and that it doesn't exist yet to boot).

This scenario of how he gets to China is no different than any other route he could have taken. Any route would be fraught with danger. Also Masada I would love you to tell Alexander himself and Admiral Nearchus it could not be done, they would laugh in your face. Sounds like Communist thinking to me. It reminds me of what they told Franklin D. Roosevelt when he wanted to hit back at Japan after Pearl Harbor, they told him it cannot be done. He stood up from his wheelchair onto on his own two feet, his generals got the message. Masada anything is possible, even when it seems impossible. There are uncountable impossibilities in History which came to be, because men followed their hearts and hid their fears. There is nothing impossible to him who will try-Alexander the Great

I'll say this. It's impossible. You might as well expect Alexander to invade the freaking moon; he would basically be invading a jungle version of it.

I agree. I ruled out the southern route immediately, but if he did take it we know he may have gotten India, but would be bogged down after that. I played with the idea of a fleet launched from the Persian Gulf. I think there would be sufficient drive and incentive for a large fleet but would it be galleys or dhow-like ships ? Probably both to some degree - he would have learned from Nearchus. This fleet would be an intersting scenario in the Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal, moving down both coasts of India, after successful trade missions to East Africa and Arabia. But I don't think it would survive the monsoons and scarcities in hostile coastal states, swarms of sampans and light junks in SE Asia, just to face the unknown perils of the South China Sea.

The key is learn about what? A tiny leg of an incredibly long voyage? Which to boot had never been done in its entirety by anyone (and won't be for another couple of centuries). Here's where it gets comical, the Chinese didn't trade further than what was to be called Funan. They didn't know how to progress any further nobody did but the Malays (and that wasn't for another century or two). So Malacca is an utter impossibility there isn't evidence of commercial movements through there for another couple of centuries and nothing of note - there are no cities in Indonesia of any real size yet either nor are there cities any further south than Funan. Kra you would have to portage over and into the the area which would become Funan on the other side of the Malay Peninsula... and there is not a hope of you getting a ride on the other side.

You could maybe get to the Bay of Bengal but not with an army of any size there isn't any means of resupplying on the way and the route would it probably take a year or so to round Indian and reach Bengal (there is no way you can move anywhere near as fast as Munoz suggests for almost a millenia later). In any case where does that get you? Nowhere.

BTW Dhows didn't exist quite yet. Galleys would have gotten you killed in the first bit of bad weather. Outriggers might have been a possibility... considering that the Malays managed to get from Madagascar back to Indonesia on them.

 

[vogtmurr]

...

The key is learn about what? A tiny leg of an incredibly long voyage? Which to boot had never been done in its entirety by anyone (and won't be for another couple of centuries). Here's where it gets comical, the Chinese didn't trade further than what was to be called Funan. They didn't know how to progress any further nobody did but the Malays (and that wasn't for another century or two). So Malacca is an utter impossibility there isn't evidence of commercial movements through there for another couple of centuries and nothing of note - there are no cities in Indonesia of any real size yet either nor are there cities any further south than Funan. Kra you would have to portage over and into the the area which would become Funan on the other side of the Malay Peninsula... and there is not a hope of you getting a ride on the other side.

You could maybe get to the Bay of Bengal but not with an army of any size there isn't any means of resupplying on the way and the route would it probably take a year or so to round Indian and reach Bengal (there is no way you can move anywhere near as fast as Munoz suggests for almost a millenia later). In any case where does that get you? Nowhere.

BTW Dhows didn't exist quite yet. Galleys would have gotten you killed in the first bit of bad weather. Outriggers might have been a possibility... considering that the Malays managed to get from Madagascar back to Indonesia on them.

The key is I was thinking Alexander would have built a fleet from the Persian Gulf just to exploit the obvious opportunities, but I was never surmizing his entire expedition would be a naval one. I discussed the consequence of it attempting to support an invasion in my first post on this thread. The army goes through India, supported by the fleet along the coasts. India had many well developed kingdoms all along the coast. But this runs counter to the original intention.

The probability is that Alexander ends up doing this, because India looks like a more attractive route to reach the Ocean, or whatever it is Alex is after in this hypothetical scenario. He simply doesn't know what you know right now, and as I said earlier, gets bogged down. The fleet is intended as an armed supply fleet to support the army on land, and also laden with trade goods. It would not be a gigantic floating army, but not a small fleet either, enough to land a city conquering army. Two centuries isn't too far away I think the galleys if they be that, would have adopted a more seaworthy Phoenecian trader style maybe, but I agree that unless they hug the coast and were lucky, they would be in trouble in the first tropical storm.

 

[Masada]

The key is I was thinking Alexander would have built a fleet from the Persian Gulf just to exploit the obvious opportunities, but I was never surmizing his entire expedition would be a naval one.

There is basically no reason why he would do so - i.e the opportunities are rather sparse at best.

He simply doesn't know what you know right now, and as I said earlier, gets bogged down. The fleet is intended as an armed supply fleet to support the army on land, and also laden with trade goods. It would not be a gigantic floating army, but not a small fleet either, enough to land a city conquering army.

Nobody would strike out across the Ocean - the Bay of Bengal is a dead zone on the way to the Isthmus of Kra and the rest I've already elucidated upon. In other news: what are you going to trade for... spice hasn't even reached that far that yet, Indonesian goods haven't even reached that far yet and Chinese trading goods are not really evidenced much

Two centuries isn't too far away

It's one more century that Alexander could ever live.

I think the galleys if they be that, would have adopted a more seaworthy Phoenecian trader style maybe, but I agree that unless they hug the coast and were lucky, they would be in trouble in the first tropical storm.

Yes ... open water is not conducive to galleys.

 

[aelf]

Now you want to know the hitch in all this? The route he talks about did not exist in the way he described it for the following reasons;

1. Malacca was not open to trade;
2. The route would require that the vessel can do the direct route across the Gulf from India to Malaysia which wasn't possible for another six centuries;
3. he supposes that the ships were ~ 6th century and above in technological setup;
4. he supposes that the mariner actually had some knowledge of where he was going and was capable of prompt decisions;
5. he assumes a single vessel for the journey which at full efficiency through an imaginary route (which didn't exist) was going to take 9 months;
6. he supposes that you can travel during the monsoon and actually ride it out which lets face it wasn't possible.

Our problems are that;

1. We are talking about a large army;
2. We are talking about a large fleet;
3. We are therefore talking about a large requirement for supplies which cannot be sourced from cities and towns which don't freaking exist yet: the Chola had inordinate amounts of trouble keeping supplied significantly less men than we are talking about in Sumatra which at the time was at its historic height of wealth and power (i.e it was amongst the wealthiest areas on earth);
4. We are assuming that somehow Alexander and his armies are going to go by sea via a route which usually took 2 years to merely reach China.

Dude, a couple of people basically assumed that Alexander would win because he was a good general and had awesome cavalry plus invincible phalanxes. They also assumed the Chinese had mainly small Zhu Ge crossbows with pencil-like quarrels that relied on poisoned tips to kill unarmoured targets partly because of a TV show of dubious scholarship. That also assumed that Alexander could, along the way to China, overcome or overawe all the different states and nomad tribes just like that and even recruit their soldiers into his service in significant enough numbers. All the while ignoring that he had to replenish the numbers of his pezhetairoi and hypaspistai from Greek states if he wanted to have high-quality infantry, that even with elites he had trouble dealing with a small number of elephants so he might just be unable to trek through the Nanda Empire, or assumed that he could somehow make it to China via the steppes and the Tarim Basin with a large Macedonian army intact... Basically, you get the point.

 

[innonimatu]

Dude, a couple of people basically assumed that Alexander would win because he was a good general and had awesome cavalry plus invincible phalanxes. They also assumed the Chinese had mainly small Zhu Ge crossbows with pencil-like quarrels that relied on poisoned tips to kill unarmoured targets partly because of a TV show of dubious scholarship. That also assumed that Alexander could, along the way to China, overcome or overawe all the different states and nomad tribes just like that and even recruit their soldiers into his service in significant enough numbers. All the while ignoring that he had to replenish the numbers of his pezhetairoi and hypaspistai from Greek states if he wanted to have high-quality infantry, that even with elites he had trouble dealing with a small number of elephants so he might just be unable to trek through the Nanda Empire, or that he could somehow make it to China via the steppes and the Tarim Basin with a large Macedonian army intact... Basically, you get the point.

Yeah. And they also assumed that in he could, on his way to India, overcome or overawe all the different peoples loosely attached to the Persian empire, guard against the central asian nomads and hold that border, trek through the whole Persian empire (taking it over on the way...), coopt local rulers, replenish his infantry from a Macedonia thousands of kilometers away and from a chronically rebellious Greece...
oh, wait, he did that!

I don't think Alexander would be attempting to march right to India anytime soon when he died. The whole thing would in any event be extremely unlikely, he should be as interested in conquering the troublesome east as later chinese emperors were in taking over the equally troublesome west (Central Asia's single "resource" seems to have been aggressive nomads...). But if he had lived 50 years more who can guess what might have happened? Central Asia offered a viable route, and if some ancient ruler would conceive such an overambitious campaign (conquering is one thing, but holding on to conquered territories...), it would be Alexander. Wasn't this thread about how the ensuring war would go, assuming that he got there with an army?

 

[vogtmurr]

There is basically no reason why he would do so - i.e the opportunities are rather sparse at best.

Nobody would strike out across the Ocean - the Bay of Bengal is a dead zone on the way to the Isthmus of Kra and the rest I've already elucidated upon. In other news: what are you going to trade for... spice hasn't even reached that far that yet,

Yes ... open water is not conducive to galleys.

Masada, I don't disagree with your underlying statements, but I think you are missing my point. You keep assuming Alexander has this perfect geographical knowledge and hindsight to make the perfect decisions. Ships can haul a lot more supplies than an army can on land. I never presumed striking out across the ocean - if Alexander made the mistake of taking the southern route through India - the fleet would hug the coasts. What about the Persian Gulf, Coast of India, Arabia, etc ? It doesn't need to get to China to exploit obvious opportunities. If nothing else, they may be trading with the Indians for basic supplies, you know, it's much easier to have locals bring it to you than have to keep sacking cities and getting food out of depopulated countryside. And don't ask me to start explaining what they are going to trade - if someone doesn't like their goods they'll take what they need anyway, and save the nice vases and amphora of olive oil, wine, whatever isn't spolilage for someone who actually cares for it. But trade goods would be primarily low mass luxury items, like maybe incense from South Arabia. Are you telling me there's no trade opportunities in South Asia at this time ?

Dude, a couple of people basically assumed that Alexander would win because he was a good general and had awesome cavalry plus invincible phalanxes. They also assumed the Chinese had mainly small Zhu Ge crossbows with pencil-like quarrels that relied on poisoned tips to kill unarmoured targets partly because of a TV show of dubious scholarship. That also assumed that Alexander could, along the way to China, overcome or overawe all the different states and nomad tribes just like that and even recruit their soldiers into his service in significant enough numbers. All the while ignoring that he had to replenish the numbers of his pezhetairoi and hypaspistai from Greek states if he wanted to have high-quality infantry, that even with elites he had trouble dealing with a small number of elephants so he might just be unable to trek through the Nanda Empire, or assumed that he could somehow make it to China via the steppes and the Tarim Basin with a large Macedonian army intact... Basically, you get the point.

Did we assume he would win ? Take a long look at this thread before you misrepresent everything we talked about, and which I recently laid out in further detail. And Aelf, we inquired and you as well as us came to the conclusion crossbows were the most common missile weapon in the Chinese army, and at one time you were espousing the great virtues of repeating crossbows. I never stated that a peasant militia weapon was the only crossbow in their inventory, and I never believed they could all be poisoned barbs, so which two guys are you talking about ?

...All the while ignoring nothing: 1/3 of his army stays behind in Bactria which can easily support that, guarding his back, and accompanying a 2nd supply train a couple years down the road, if necessary. There was never any assumption of any reinforcements coming from Macedonia The main host continues on with a supply train that can probably support him for 3 months alone, plus herds of sheep., etc. who are excellent for converting sparse vegetation into edible protein, and he treats with the Tokharians as soon as he gets there. You find these obvious things hard to believe.

Maybe the tone of some of this is starting to get a little extreme, and there was no need to bring up communists, etc. Whatever, it was getting late for some of us. I can challenge someone else's obviously partisan opinions just as easily, without dismissing everything they say, and always come back to respect an honest poster at the end of the day. But if they're going to make me work for it, I will do a good job of defending my position if I have justification, I just don't want to keep repeating it. I am totally

getting the point

 

[aelf]

Yeah. And they also assumed that in he could, on his way to India, overcome or overawe all the different peoples loosely attached to the Persian empire, guard against the central asian nomads and hold that border, trek through the whole Persian empire (taking it over on the way...), coopt local rulers, replenish his infantry from a Macedonia thousands of kilometers away and from a chronically rebellious Greece...
oh, wait, he did that!

Err, the Persian empire was the near east, so to speak, and China is the far east. We're talking about a great difference in distance here.

Besides, he practically took over the Persian empire and its political machinery. That's not going to be the case further on. And you might want to see how the Greek Baktrians ended up if you think dealing with the steppe tribes was going to be that easy.

Also, Alexander was not invincible. He had trouble dealing with a minor king like Porus, and with help from Taxila as well. One of the things it shows is fighting very foreign people with a different enough sort of warfare on their home territory wasn't a simple exercise even for a genius god-emperor.

Did we assume he would win ? Take a long look at this thread before you misrepresent everything we talked about, and which I recently laid out in further detail. And Aelf, we inquired and you as well as us came to the conclusion crossbows were the most common missile weapon in the Chinese army, and at one time you were espousing the great virtues of repeating crossbows. I never stated that a peasant militia weapon was the only crossbow in their inventory, and I never believed they could all be poisoned barbs, so which two guys are you talking about ?

Yeah, go and read the thread again and you'll see everything that I mean.

Anyway, I said very clearly that I dislike over-emphasizing the repeating crossbows and now you're telling me I was extolling their virtues I dunno, but this thread has been consistently disappointing.

...All the while ignoring nothing: 1/3 of his army stays behind in Bactria which can easily support that, guarding his back, and accompanying a 2nd supply train a couple years down the road, if necessary. There was never any assumption of any reinforcements coming from Macedonia The main host continues on with a supply train that can probably support him for 3 months alone, plus herds of sheep., etc. who are excellent for converting sparse vegetation into edible protein, and he treats with the Tokharians as soon as he gets there. You find these obvious things hard to believe.

Without reinforcements from Macedonia, he would have too few elite infantry to execute the Macedonian tactics properly. He would hardly stand a chance, unless he pulled off something really brilliant while his Chinese opponents must be completely idiotic. And I like how he "treats with Tokharians" just like that. And steppe warfare is a whole different ballgame. He would have a nightmare with his supply lines.

Maybe the tone of some of this is starting to get a little extreme, and there was no need to bring up communists, etc. Whatever, it was getting late for some of us. I can challenge someone else's obviously partisan opinions just as easily, without dismissing everything they say, and always come back to respect an honest poster at the end of the day. But if they're going to make me work for it, I will do a good job of defending my position if I have justification, I just don't want to keep repeating it. I am totally

No you're not. The point is people are just saying whatever they like here, with some actual info interspersed. But is there any surprise when we're talking about a completely hypothetical scenario while not being established scholars of the relevant fields? We even have people who get their info mainly from the mass media!

 

[nokmirt]

... you have no idea how the winds function do you? This is the typical voyage from the Arabian Gulf to China through the Malacca Strait somewhat possible after the sixth century AD but only practical from the tenth century AD onwards.



Now you want to know the hitch in all this? The route he talks about did not exist in the way he described it for the following reasons;

1. Malacca was not open to trade;
2. The route would require that the vessel can do the direct route across the Gulf from India to Malaysia which wasn't possible for another six centuries;
3. he supposes that the ships were ~ 6th century and above in technological setup;
4. he supposes that the mariner actually had some knowledge of where he was going and was capable of prompt decisions;
5. he assumes a single vessel for the journey which at full efficiency through an imaginary route (which didn't exist) was going to take 9 months;
6. he supposes that you can travel during the monsoon and actually ride it out which lets face it wasn't possible.

Our problems are that;

1. We are talking about a large army;
2. We are talking about a large fleet;
3. We are therefore talking about a large requirement for supplies which cannot be sourced from cities and towns which don't freaking exist yet: the Chola had inordinate amounts of trouble keeping supplied significantly less men than we are talking about in Sumatra which at the time was at its historic height of wealth and power (i.e it was amongst the wealthiest areas on earth);
4. We are assuming that somehow Alexander and his armies are going to go by sea via a route which usually took 2 years to merely reach China.

Now you might say Masada what about the Isthmus of Kra route? I'll simply say this;

1. Its longer with a compulsory six month to nine month wait for the winds to change no matter what because the winds are even less forgiving;
2. That is in addition to the whole portage issue, you will not get the ships on the other side with the capabilities to even carry a fraction of your soldiers considering how new the route is;
3. Your supply situation is not quite as bad as the Malacca route... but your still talking about a body of soldiers which would probably have outnumbered the entirety of the local population (keeping in mind that Funan at its height was projected to have fewer than 600,000 people and that it doesn't exist yet to boot).



I'll say this. It's impossible. You might as well expect Alexander to invade the freaking moon; he would basically be invading a jungle version of it.



The key is learn about what? A tiny leg of an incredibly long voyage? Which to boot had never been done in its entirety by anyone (and won't be for another couple of centuries). Here's where it gets comical, the Chinese didn't trade further than what was to be called Funan. They didn't know how to progress any further nobody did but the Malays (and that wasn't for another century or two). So Malacca is an utter impossibility there isn't evidence of commercial movements through there for another couple of centuries and nothing of note - there are no cities in Indonesia of any real size yet either nor are there cities any further south than Funan. Kra you would have to portage over and into the the area which would become Funan on the other side of the Malay Peninsula... and there is not a hope of you getting a ride on the other side.

You could maybe get to the Bay of Bengal but not with an army of any size there isn't any means of resupplying on the way and the route would it probably take a year or so to round Indian and reach Bengal (there is no way you can move anywhere near as fast as Munoz suggests for almost a millenia later). In any case where does that get you? Nowhere.

BTW Dhows didn't exist quite yet. Galleys would have gotten you killed in the first bit of bad weather. Outriggers might have been a possibility... considering that the Malays managed to get from Madagascar back to Indonesia on them.

You guys I am sure are right, I guess it was quite far fetched but maybe he could have at least got a better hold on India. And maybe learned a little more about what lies along the coast.

6. he supposes that you can travel during the monsoon and actually ride it out which lets face it wasn't possible.

I am sorry but this was what I was trying to say. I said clearly he can stop and regroup during the monsoon season. I do not see how you could have mis judged that. Now that I read this it seems you put words in my mouth. I did say that Admiral Nearchus overcame much during his odsssey. However theres is no reason why he could'nt have pursued this course little by little, even if for just exploratory reasons, he could have done that, and he did do that on the way back to the Tigris river(much of the explored area was thought to be impassible, but he did make it to Susa, with obsolete galleys), this is beyond doubt and it is part of recorded History. Also the monsoon season does it last all year? Is it not possible? The thing is Masada is that unlike you Alexander and Nearchus did not know this, and nevertheless they may have tried it, even a limited expedition. And Masada the route is always unknown or imaginary as you put it until somebody actually pursues and explores it. The main thing that I agree on is that they of course needed better ships. But they would not believe it to be impossible, nothing on earth is impossible. I don't know about you I would not throw my fleet into a monsoon, you wait until the monsoon season is over then push on and so on. I hope you understand now, my goodness

 

[nokmirt]

Yeah. And they also assumed that in he could, on his way to India, overcome or overawe all the different peoples loosely attached to the Persian empire, guard against the central asian nomads and hold that border, trek through the whole Persian empire (taking it over on the way...), coopt local rulers, replenish his infantry from a Macedonia thousands of kilometers away and from a chronically rebellious Greece...
oh, wait, he did that!

I don't think Alexander would be attempting to march right to India anytime soon when he died. The whole thing would in any event be extremely unlikely, he should be as interested in conquering the troublesome east as later chinese emperors were in taking over the equally troublesome west (Central Asia's single "resource" seems to have been aggressive nomads...). But if he had lived 50 years more who can guess what might have happened? Central Asia offered a viable route, and if some ancient ruler would conceive such an overambitious campaign (conquering is one thing, but holding on to conquered territories...), it would be Alexander. Wasn't this thread about how the ensuring war would go, assuming that he got there with an army?

Indeed perhaps not but he could have defeated them in a battle. These Chinese bleed like the rest of us.