[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 35: Suryavarman / Khmer

[pigswill]

Using a GS to bulb philo obviously uses a GP that could bulb towards astronomy; second GS will cost 200 gpp (100 w Pac), third will cost 300 (150 w Pac), it might take longer to bulb astronomy via pacifism than ignoring CoL altogether. You could slow research philosophy but that may take a while.
There's also a possibility that you're semi isolated as it looks as if northern coast hasn't been fully explored and fractal is a bit, well, fractal.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Thanks everyone for the advice! I have a few weekdays to decide.

@pigswill Thank you for letting me know how the ALC worked! I will do that next time if the circumstances permit. On the positive side this map is suitable for the UB and leader traits. I am not sure what map type can demonstrate the UU versus regular elephants.

@Mr_Trotsky I agree with the techs you mentioned that I should get next. As for the tech order, my instincts tell me pottery must be before bronze working or my economy will collapse. Workers can build roads if they got nothing else to do. The real question is when do I slip in fishing.

@Izuul Right, city size can be micromanaged. I am confused about the whole diplomacy thing though. How do I benefit from pacifism if I don't run a state religion?

 

[Izuul]

You would need to run a religion which is the big downside.

 

[pigswill]

You could decide whether the turns lost in anarchy swopping in and out of religion are justified by the benefits.

 

[krikav]

I played up until T50 too, both BW and AH is in so spoilers for those resources. Haven't pushed forward much with scouting though.

Spoiler T50 :

Settled on sugar, working sugar and grew to pop2 on a warrior, this gives me time to pop borders so I can reach the 3H tile for the exp worker bonus, also reaching pop2 sooner.
I'm less sure that the choice to go for agriculture is correct though. But I was abit paranoid that jungle would spread on that tile and I didn't want to dedicate a warrior to standing on it just to prevent that.
Gives faster growth and a slight bonus toward AH, but given that commerce is a huge bottleneck here, perhaps that was a bad choice.

Agri->AH->Fish->BW->TW, have just finished TW and going for Pottery now. Will cottage basically any cottageable tile, non riverside plains...? Yummy!
After pottery I think writing is best, but after that...?
Monarchy is usually the way to go in iso with no happines, but here I'm not so sure that the benefit is worth it. Extra population to work what exacly...? Unimproved coast?
Think IW after writing is the way to go. Have to clear that riverside and lay down cottages there.
Monarchy abit later after that perhaps? Straight to optics is an option too.

This is one of the worst map I have seen in ages. The only saving grace is the somewhat fast start with sugar settlement and two strong tiles in the cows.

 

[krikav]

@sylvanllewelyn checked your spoiler now, I kind of guessed there was a oracle play going on since there was discussion about religion though.

Spoiler :

I really like your creative push. The starting area is hopeless so doing something dramatic is called for.
I don't approve of your second city though, maybe that made more sense in your playthrough as you where forced to postpone fishing..?
Still think the fish city without fish is better suited though, could have borrowed a cow to get it going abit.


What to pick from oracle... Well as I said in my post already I don't really like monarchy, the extra happines doesn't do much when you don't have any tiles to work. But on the other hand, getting it for free is another thing altogether.
There is some nice synnergy with CoL and expansive, vicawoo wrote abit about it here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/expansive-abuse-oracle-code-of-laws-fast-gm.429853/
The basic idea is that if you go early oracle->CoL you can use caste system to forgo buildings like monument and libraries, since you can hire artists and scientists all you want. Expansive takes care of the problem of not being able to whip granaries.
But with sury here... we get borderpops for free, and the libraries are already cheap too, so that synnergy is lost abit.

Getting CoL and a religion is nice though. Sure some problems down the road, but nothing dramatic. And +2 happines everywhere with temples is sweet.

The only credible alternative I can think of is alphabet. And I think that option looks good.
The capital has alot of hammers and nowhere to put them, going alpha solves that and gives you a instant boost in research at a time when you really need it.
Would be much easier to reach fish/pottery/BW with capital churning out 15 beakers per turn in built research.
That path could set you up to bulb optics too, (just have to self-tech math and optics will be bulbable).

The GProphet is no problem imho. I would even try to run two scientists in the capital asap to get a GPerson out as soon as possible. And would settle it no matter if it's a prophet or a scientist.
Library will be done in like 3 turns and with 2+3+3GPP you would get out a guy T67, super early!
In either case, the settled GPerson will give you just above 8bpt worth of teching power, and multiply that up until an OK optics date of 130 that settled guy will have given you 500 beakers.
Just remember to have 2 cities running two scientists at say T85-T90 so you have two more scientists ready around T140 to double bulb astro.

 

[Izuul]

Spoiler :

I like the Alpha suggestion. For some reason I completely overlooked that, but building research offers way more right now than either of the other options. The extra happiness here doesn't pay off until after the jungle is cleared and cottages are built along that river. And that's not happening soon.

 

[konata_LS]

Another Iso map

As far as I've noticed, it seems the tech choice in Iso is a little different than in Pangaea maps? For example, in a Pangaea map, people often get IW or Alphabet through tech trading, especially on IMM+. But in Iso, even on Deity, the players have to self-tech IW, because IW is required for Compass.

The island looks less generous than the last ALC. The only -resources was sugar, and it requires Calendar. -resources are abundant, but is not an issue here since Sury is EXP.

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS Yes, there is alot of things that differ. It's almost like isolation is a completely different game up until you make contact with the AIs.
For a very long time historically, people thought deity isolation was downright impossible.
Nowadays some go so far as to say that deity iso is the setup that is best if you aim is highest consistency in guaranteed wins, mainly due to the early protection from early DoWs from the AIs.
There is a very lengthy thread dedicated to isolation on deity too:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-isolation-workshop-stan-norm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/

There was also a team game played by strong players that has alot of similarities to the current map (lots of jungle near the start etc)
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/team-game-isolated-pacal-deity.627095/

 

[krikav]

@Izuul
Yeah, it took me some time to figure alpha out too, basically going through all techs: "Monarchy? No.. CoL...? Maybe.. Aestethics no. Alpha... hmm"
It does make alot of sense.

@konata_LS Regarding alpha in perticular, it's not common to self-tech (or oracle) that in isolation. Alpha is suited in some maps where you have alot of natural hammer tiles.
Say, a capital with copper/horse or double plains cows or something like that.
IW you always self-tech since you need it to get compass->optics, and noone will give it to you. Quite common this happends in semi-iso too.

 

[Snowbird]

Just a question...
How much viable is cultural victory on isolated Deity? I think I've read about it some time ago, with CoL and Philo providing religions.

I know that Astro path is a viable one, but the part after Astro is ... well, does not look inviting.

 

[krikav]

Just a question...
How much viable is cultural victory on isolated Deity? I think I've read about it some time ago, with CoL and Philo providing religions.

I know that Astro path is a viable one, but the part after Astro is ... well, does not look inviting.

Have never done it iirc. But it's certainly a possibility.
But with only 2 religions I think it's absolute crucial that you can get an island where you can set up two really good commerce cities early on. A thrid laggard city could be bombarded with artists to keep up, but two spectacular cities are probably needed.
Diplo would be really tricky too as one would rely on OR+Pacifism in a heathen religion alot.

 

[Ianrudy]

So I'm curious on why the decision to settle on the southern most sugar.. I personally would go to the sugar 1 NW of that and settle on that.. advantages are you gain fresh water from the river, poor mans roads for cities along the river to the north, works better for the southern city dot map, and something special when you hit BW..

Also 3 food tile in the immediate city radius.. mining as starting tech.. almost always means a warrior + BW to start then whip the worker when BW hits (even more IMHO because we start with scout).

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

@Ianrudy Well, thats not the path I took with the settler. Settler went N then NE the first turn, so the sugar you suggest isn't reachable T1.

I don't like moving away from the two plains cows either. And if you settle on the southernmost sugar you have the riverside sugar still available to farm and cottage.
Freshwater... Not terribly important here with exp leader, some health resources and low happycap.

It's nice to be on a river for connections, but you can also connect cities along the coast just fine too, and TW is needed soon enough anyway.

Going BW and whipping the worker is a nice idea, hadn't thought about that. But with two cows I think AH before BW is still more important.
Also, if you settle on the riverside sugar, do you really get enough commerce to get BW in time..?

Squeezing in one additional marginal city in the south isn't a priority, in fact I almost regret settling the city I did settle 1S of the rice.

 

[Ianrudy]

Also, if you settle on the riverside sugar, do you really get enough commerce to get BW in time..?

Nope and I think you are better off farming it initially anyway because of that lack of early commerce, so yes I'll back peddle on the settle decision but still think BW + whip worker is a better opening.

 

[konata_LS]

@krikav
Ah I see... I've glanced through the Iso links you provided, Iso games look indeed different. It's hard to say whether "Iso" is the most difficult map, as sometimes "semi-Iso with Shaka or Monty" may be tougher than "just Iso".

IIRC, Alphabet is required if people want GS to bulb Astro. Do you mean in some cases people send caravels, meet some AIs, get Alphabet in trade then bulb Astro? Interesting.

No worry from an early DoW is certainly good. But the lack of trading partners and foreign TR is still a challenge. Besides, unlike Pangaea or Inland Sea mpas, it seems in Iso it's impossible to control the diplomacy between the unknown AIs.

 

[krikav]

Nono, sometimes you self-tech math+alpha (both needed to bulb optics) then you tech toward machinery/compass and use a GSci to bulb optics, so you need to forgo an academy and you still need to get 3 GSci to be able to bulb astro a while later.

Semi iso with a warmongerer is likely the most challenging setup that I know of, especially if you are starved for land.
Not only do you get cut out of almost all trades, but you also run the risk of an early DoW, AND you don't even see them plotting (no red fist warning if there is no other AI around).

Not being able to interact with the AIs earlier does lead to a higher risk of runaway AIs, for sure. Justinian in the last ALC is a nice example of that. (But not certain one could have done much even if we could have interacted earlier either though).

 

[Izuul]

Yeah, semi-iso is worse than true iso in many cases. There aren't many advantages to iso, but there are two notable ones:

1) You don't have to worry about an early DoW from a dangerous neighbor.

2) You can settle your land when and how you choose.

Both of those things can go out of the window in semi-iso, and, depending on which AI you get as a neighbor, there's a good chance you will still get virtually no meaningful tech trades.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@konata_LS
There was also a team game played by strong players that has alot of similarities to the current map (lots of jungle near the start etc)
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/team-game-isolated-pacal-deity.627095/

They are much better players. But. They had corn on grassland, pigs, and gems. I had rice in jungle, plains-cow, and sugar. Their island was nice and round, mine is elongated like a left-handed middle finger.

There's also a possibility that you're semi isolated as it looks as if northern coast hasn't been fully explored and fractal is a bit, well, fractal.

No chance on deity. Too many barbarians. They would have contacted me with galleys by now.

Just a question...
How much viable is cultural victory on isolated Deity? I think I've read about it some time ago, with CoL and Philo providing religions.
I know that Astro path is a viable one, but the part after Astro is ... well, does not look inviting.

Viable, and there is enough land to do it. Can be considered. I feel that the first part, rush to astronomy, is the same. I can't do math, but I believe the commerce from intercontinental trade routes are worth a couple of great artists. I can also attempt to trade astronomy for either education or nationalism, both of which I need.

Then it's a matter of waiting for religions to arrive and then spread it around, no particular advantage to founding them.

Alternatively I can try sushi-powered with broadcast towers. I got rice and seafood, and biology/medicine are low priority for AIs which makes good trading fodder. The big 3 will be coastal, I will run free market, and build customs house. Science-based culture game.

So I'm curious on why the decision to settle on the southern most sugar.. I personally would go to the sugar 1 NW of that and settle on that.. advantages are you gain fresh water from the river, poor mans roads for cities along the river to the north, works better for the southern city dot map, and something special when you hit BW..

If you look at my starting area, that tile is the only land tile that generates more than 4 food before iron working. I need to farm it.

Round 2: make haste slowly (2000BC - - 800AD)

I initially wanted to go code of laws. Various posters explained why it wasn't a good idea.

Monarchy is the standard choice but this is not a standard map. New cottages just about break-even against the cost of warrior garrison and population-based city maintenance. I don't have anywhere to put cottages until iron working, and then spend more time waiting for cottages to mature. I do want to reach astronomy before Christopher Columbus.

@krikav and I are on the same page with the principle of converting production into commerce. Alphabet and settling a great person achieves that, and gets to astronomy faster. But then what am I left with? 4 cities with 4 population each, plus a capital with 5. 17 total population to reach optics.

I feel like I need to take more bets to win.

Spoiler :

It's similar to alphabet, except I get slightly fewer science, but with some rebate for the production sunk into the Oracle.

Another question is why I put the expansion city onto that strange spot. One, it had access to the only 4-food land tile after agriculture. (Sidenote: I had no worker techs, so I squatted the worker on the tile stop jungle growth.) Two, fogbusting!

Spoiler :

First warriors, then archers and spearmen. If one axeman shows up it's gg and I don't have time to research archery.

The RNG gods were in my favour this time

Spoiler :

I am saving it for lightbulb. Not settling it.

Tech path: masonry, the wheel (connect cow for health), bronze working, agriculture, fishing, pottery.

Spoiler :

Failgold would have also been fine. I am in a hurry to get iron working to farm the sugar tiles. I need to make haste slowly with settlers and workers.

Tech path: iron working, sailing, metal casting, compass. machinery, optics.

Super late T145 (700AD) optics! I won't be first to astronomy but that's okay...? Just getting it in "reasonable" time is an achievement. If the diplomacy is unfriendly then they might not trade techs too quickly.

Spoiler :

Met someone and made a trade while I still can. Given that he is still researching that tech (I cannot get full price), I suspect all the AIs are on the same continent, or at least in contact, making it low priority.

Spoiler :

More confirmation that they are all in contact: the AI of one end is worst enemy of an AI in the other end.

Spoiler :

Someone is in an even worst situation than me! Worst enemies of both and I suspect more.

Spoiler :

Situation at T155 (800AD).
1. An unmet civilisation reached liberalism. It is possible they chose astronomy.
2. Sugar plantations ready in 4 turns, then it's searching for remaining AIs and start trading. I think I have a sugar monopoly.
3. Nobody I met is at war. I do not know why Greece, being so hopelessly small and backward, and hated by both (and maybe more), is still independent. England has knights and muskets, Greece has swordsman and catapults.
4. Augustus also does not have many cities. Land is power and he might fall behind later. That's good because, as a long-term goal, I want to be friends with Augustus. Once I can follow his religion and he enters representation, that might be possible. I need a backward friendly AI as trading partner.

The next step is probably whipping out settlers and workers. How I plant my cities depends on how I intend to try to win.
a. Renaissance military campaign against a backward power.
b. Modern military campaign against a powerful one
c. Culture, probably sushi-powered and religion-powered. My science output is not great but obviously there is room to grow.
d. Diplomacy by farming everything. This time I do have enough land to pull it off. Sushi can help.

 

[krikav]

@sylvanllewelyn When I first saw "Math" in the oracle post I was "wtf?!" but when I saw the civics screenshot a while later I understod.
Very nice outside of the box thinking! Making a try for stoneless pyramids is not something I would have considered, but thats just the kind of gambles that can work out.
I would have a easier time following the screenshots if you altered the bug settings for the clock, so that it doesn't alternate between % done and absolute turns btw, perhaps you didn't know this setting was available?

I played on a shadow up untill astro (T148), writing->IW then toward monarchy before the standard optics beeline. Churchil found me with his caravels T134 when I was still 6-8 turns away from optics myself, and the buggar had 13 cities at that time too, that was abit depressing, but similar to in your game I subsequently found august and alex and got the necessery trades.

Spoiler Some earlier screenshots T94 and T108 :

It was somewhere around here I started to regret that I settled Angkor Thom, I wanted to settle that western spot as it had access to 4 river grassland tiles, wasn't quite ready here as workers where not done improving the two central cities, so that settler pretty much acted as a fogbuster for some time.
There was a period prior to monarchy (Got monarchy T93 and revolted to slav+HR then) where I was close to happycap and most cities where just maxing beakers and slow-building settlers.

The notes are my calculations for how far I have to optics, and it was... Far. I always do those checkups to see if I'm in sync with the scientists to bulb astro, but here when I skimped on academy and only needed two, and the beakerrate was slow, this was probably uneccessery.
Pillaged my copper shortly after finishing the two axes to be able to build warriors for HR, but most cities don't get that many warriors, some are at healthcap and some just have the one warrior for military police.

Careful here, I bought the map of an AI so the map is visible.

Spoiler T148 Astro screenshot :

Under all that jungle, the island is pretty nice actually. Haven't checked how large, but there is probably room for 12 decent cities.
Church is in merc, he hates me for the trades I did with Alex, but that should wear off soon. Now that circumnavigation is in I'll gift him the map and whatever cash I have to get up his mood. That guy is a beast.