[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 35: Suryavarman / Khmer

[krikav]

@sylvanllewelyn
I kind of like option a, Alex looks weak and from stabbing him you could get some more nice cities.
But first and foremost you should probably solidify first, conquer your own island and reassess after a while.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

TW before Ag, I don't understand. Connecting cow for health vs allowing farming? The whole reason you chose your first 2 city spots was because of the 'only 4 food land tile', but it was 3 food until like turn 70...

 

[Fippy]

I wouldn't tech Agri either with this start, unless i want the discount for AH & Pottery.
We basically get 1 sugar farm that will be a cottage soon enuf.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

My city had +1 point of unhealthiness, so gaining +1 health from connecting resource was equivalent to building a farm.

Cottaging the sugar... honestly I never thought about that. Is it more valuable as a cottage than as a tradable resource? Fractal being fractal, I might have a monopoly on it.

 

[krikav]

I went agri, farmed that tile for some time, then later it was replaced with a cottage and later still some of the jungled sugars became farms.
Not entierly sure that was the optimal way of play, but thats what I did. Felt like the two plains cows where abit low to grow up to happycap fast, but mostly I was just paranoid about jungle growth and didn't want to have a warrior stand there to keep it clear.

@sylvanllewelyn It's quite possible that it's well worth it to cottages such tiles while in iso, and then only later when you know the other AIs and have calendar etc, then to replace the cottages.
A resource that you can trade away can be worth quite abit.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Short update because I need to determine the path forward.

Round 3: astronomy for sale (800AD T150 -- 960AD T158)

There are six players in the game. In my game, I found out that Alexander is worst enemy of four of them. If I traded with him, my game ends. Since I didn't, I get to trade with others.

Spoiler :

The AI demands tribute when the human player is defenseless. I don't have to submit to every demand.

Spoiler :

This one is accepted. I want to leave open the possibility of befriending Isabella later.

This one I am not scared of. Sooner or later Alexander will be someone's vassal. He declared war on Isabella before, declared on Augustus before, and declared again 2 turns ago.

Next turn he asked me to join.

Trades. Some trades provide no benefit but I do it anyway to accumulate the "supply resources" diplomatic modifier.

Spoiler :

The diplomatic situation is forgiving. Churchill is leading but not dominating. Note that Isabella is plotting but not sure against who. Either to run over Alexander, or to try to take back Valencia from Gilgamesh. If Alexander capitulates to Isabella, then my future plan will involve attacking rather than befriending Augustus.

Spoiler :

I can even attack someone without too many "declare on friend" penalties, or vote someone for religious victory blind and not worry, resulting in one more trade:

Spoiler :

The tech picture situation.

Spoiler :

I am not sure how to proceed.

1. For the next dozen turns (980AD T158 to 1100AD T170) my research will be close to zero. I need to whip workers and settlers, double and triple whip, so I won't have spare population to run scientist specialists. I ran on a core of 5 cities, founded 3 new ones a few turns ago, and my dot-map says found 3 more plus try to take out the barbarian city, total 12. Maintenance is ameliorated by astronomy so that's not a concern in the short run. But anyway the tech picture will look very different by then.

Still, even for "loose change" quantities of science, where should I put it?

2. I have two Buddhist cities and one Hindu city. I have no state religion now. I could run one and run pacifism. Obvious diplomatic repercussions. I am tempted to be friendly with Isabella because she is backwards enough so that I have something to trade her, yet strong enough to hold her own and be a long-term partner. But I am also scared that she will declare on Gilgamesh, lose, and end up his vassal.

3. My civics are still: Representation, Barbarism, Slavery, Decentralisation, Paganism. I have some new civics available. I can change two of them with one-turn anarchy. I am leaning towards sticking with slavery, unless there is another opinion. I want my discounted workers, half-priced granaries, half-priced libraries, half-priced harbours, fishing boats, lighthouses...

I would love to hear any suggestions, even wacky ones. Except stupid ones like "attack Churchill".

Spoiler :

He got grenadiers a few turns ago. Chichen Itza still active. Statue of Zeus for good measure. Protective muskets. Favourite civic nationalism.

 

[krikav]

@sylvanllewelyn
In that period, I oftentimes tech poly->mason and sometimes trade for and sometimes self-tech monotheism.
Organised religion is good to spread religion fast and helps in getting stuff like forges up alot too.
And it's also on the path toward theology which I like alot and try to get in trade.

Regarding large techs that could act as trading chips, I think that chemistry could be an option. That crowd doesn't strike me as the most likely bunch to go for it early.
Steel is almost always a safe bet after that. Even the most militaristic AIs tend to go for mil/sci way earlier than steel.

Difficult to tell, didn't get any empire overview screenshot, but I suspect cities are too tiny for pacifism to make much sense at this stage.

Diplo wise, I would want to do something to get churchil to pleased, he doens't have any land target so he likely poses a higher risk than the others.

 

[konata_LS]

Agree with you on Churchill. Attacking PRO Grens is counter-productive at this stage of the game.

Maybe it's time to settle the whole island with massive workshops? Since it's already 960AD, cottage seems too late. But will Guilds, workshops will give +2 instantly. Chemistry would also increase workshops' . Plus, Chemistry also leads to SM-Communism.

About the civics... Rep sounds a little weird with slavery, because I usually use Rep with Caste; and if there is Gilgamesh in my game, I often adopt HR to boost the relationship with Giggle. But my experience is mainly based on Prince/Monarch games. Maybe Rep + slavery work well on Deity.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Round 4: United Nations and the hidden Apostolic Palace (960AD - - 1846AD T293)

Have you watched Sulla's AI survivor? I credit my diplomatic victory to the series.

I am getting ahead of myself. My situation in 960AD

Spoiler :

I aimed for diplomatic because the circumstances allowed it, which I explain shortly. Even if I chose military I would still spam farms. The population was low enough that slavery will be the most efficient method of production for a long time.

For diplomatic, I had to predict where I got votes from. Rest of the world in 960AD.

Spoiler :

Greece and Rome will become vassals and can be disregarded. They vote as their masters do.

Spain will capitulate to Gilgamesh eventually. They have military tech parity and hated each other but Gilgamesh is significantly bigger.

Asoka will remain independent. He was first to liberalism. He ran free religion and can trade techs with everyone. He cottage-spammed and ran free-speech. This gives him a tech lead. If Gilgamesh ever tries to attack Asoka, curaissers will smash against rifles, cavalry against infantry, tanks against mech infantry. Gilgamesh will not make progress.

Churchill will do his own cultural or space race thing. Annoyingly, Asoka convinced Churchill to switch and say in free speech. It will be quite late by the time I have nationalism myself and the spare gold to bribe him to switch. It will take time to accumulate the favourite civic modifier.

So the three players that will build the UN, in order of likelihood, are: Asoka, Churchill, Gilgamesh. I "just" have to convince the other two to vote for me late on.

What makes me believe that I can keep Gilgamesh happy? He built the apostolic palace and kept trying to win diplomatic. It's not possible for him to win, but, I keep voting for him and accumulate +2 modifiers.

Spoiler :

For the next six centuries, the Khmer stagnates...

1280AD: Trade Astronomy to Alexander for engineering, literature, drama (for a moment he wasn't anyone's worst enemy)
1340AD: GIFTED printed press by Churchill
1350AD: researched nationalism
1420AD: researched gunpowder
1510AD: GIFTED education by Asoka
1515AD: researched chemistry
1565AD: researched scientific method
1640AD: researched biology

Upon slave labour, they built granaries, libraries, harbours, baray, theatres, colosseums, courthouses, barracks. After biology, grocers.

The world again at 1645AD

Spoiler :

The diplomatic situation evolved as expected. Gilgamesh did not attack Asoka yet but will do so soon. They hated each other. Churchill was the only one I can safely trade with.

Spoiler :

The United Nations built on 1730AD by Churchill. I needed votes from both Gilgamesh and Asoka.

Spoiler :

I am confident Asoka will stand. Notice the diplomatic modifiers from the (defunct) apostolic palace accumulating.

Final civic switch. If my math is correct, even if the United Nations forces me away from hereditary rule, which later on it does, I have enough diplomatic modifiers.

Spoiler :

1842AD: UN vote coming up. Just like the real UN, bribing for votes is standard practice. I could not do it with Churchill because 1 of the existing +6 points were from "fair and forthright". Bribing will only push it up to +9.

Spoiler :

So there you go.

Irrelevant detail: I finally converted the barbarian city on 1836AD:

Spoiler :

The barbarian city caused me trouble throughout the game. It was on a hill, with 40% cultural defense, guarded by 7 riflemen and a galley. They would harass me amphibiously with rifles every now and then. My muskets held the cities.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Epilogue

Maybe Rep + slavery work well on Deity.

No it does not! It is poor gameplay!

* sigh * the map was silly, the whole game was silly. I think I did capture the ALC spirit and fully-utilised Suryavarman.

Spoiler :

I go communism if I think I can win before the United Nations. Otherwise you are left with a bunch of starving people and dysfunctional workshops.

I wonder (heh) what I could have done if I played normally. You know... animal husbandry, writing, bronze working, iron working, the wheel, fishing, pottery, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, monarchy, agriculture, sailing, metal casting, compass, machinery, optics. (I like to leave machinery last because I could get unlucky and get a great engineer instead of a great scientist.)

I went Oracle because I was not confident that I could get iron working in time because I had no space for cottages. I forgot to account for the fact that I went writing fast, and that libraries and scientist specialists can get iron working in reasonable time. It just didn't occur to me at all.

Next ALC will be land-based.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Epilogue

No it does not! It is poor gameplay!

I think this statement is overly strong; very often rep+slavery can work well, as independant of eachother they each provide benefits. In a theoretical min-max sense, caste synnergizes well with rep, but very often the benefits of slavery outweigh the loss of 'perfect theoretical synnergy'.

in particular, don't sleep on the happiness benefits of rep, which often outweigh the specialist beakers (especially with early rep through mids, where your empire is smaller and happiness more limited).

 

[Izuul]

Rep + Slavery is good in the early game if you get Mids. You can still run 2 specs per city with libraries and you often need the whip production at that stage of the game to get infrastructure up.

Of course spiritual leaders can get the best of both worlds.

 

[konata_LS]

@sylvanllewelyn
Congrats on your victory! Especially with this tough Iso island

Sury's cheap granaries and harbours are nice. To some degree, CRE's free border pop is also good in Iso, because it reduces the "fog" tiles, so it slightly reduces the threat from barbs.

Your Oracle and Mids are two of the most creative and original decisions of this ALC.

That barb city add some humour to this ALC.

@Izuul
Ah, I see... Yes, sometimes the player has just finished Mids but still have some Granaries or Settlers/Workers to whip. In some cases, people built Mids but have not researched CoL yet, especially on high levels (techs become more expensive), so they need to stay with Rep + Slavery for a while.

SPI with Mids is certainly nice.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Very nice.


I agree that you impressively showcased the leader. A victory condition which relied on large population courtesy of expansive and the baray and an early economy supported by rep scientists from creative libraries. I don’t think you can do more than that given that it’s almost impossible to manufacture a situation in which the ballista elephant functions any differently to your common or garden elephant.


On a culture victory, I think someone said there was no real advantage to self-founding religions. The only thing I’d say about that is that COL and philosophy both found religions for which copper doubles the speed of production of the relevant religions’ cathedrals. You had copper on your island so, having those two religions, rather than certain of the others, would have been an advantage. You didn’t know about the presence of copper at the point you completed the oracle so couldn’t have known that though. I imagine choose religions makes isolated (or potentially any) cultural victory easier because you can pick a religion you have the right resource for.