Alternate History Thread II...

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das said:
Sheep:
a) That was posted before.
b) It isn't alternate history (yet), so its entirely off-topic.
c) How exactly do you expect WWIII to take FOUR years, especially if it is pointed out that nuclear weapons will be used?
d) The scenario is rather unrealistic. China doesn't have anything to gain from the situation in question by intervenning in it - it is in China's best interests that Islam and the West weaken each other as much as possible, so that it then could displace whoever "wins".

a) I didnt realise
b) Alternative history is nothing but fiction. This is alternative future history so I would have to disagree with you there.
c) THe fact that Iran and Israel have LIMITED nuclear weapons. USA and Europe would still not of attacked with them, and the the loss of oil would of severely hampered Western economies stopping a swift response to the matter.
d) Oh contraire, China allies with the oil producing nations of the Middle East, USA crashes into a oil-caused depression and China continues to prosper. What is there not to gain! Remember just because you dont consider this feasible, that many others do not. I had a four hour long discussion on this today at work with my colleagues and they brainstormed about how this could or could not occur. Some of their insights while I didnt think of at first or totally agree with, did give me diffrent perspectives. Many a time I dont agree with your alt hist, but in the end it IS your alt-hist, so I keep my mouth shut.
 
a) A few pages before, by Thlayli.
b) History is a description of events that happened in the past. 2011 isn't the past yet, I believe.
c) REGARDLESS. The only way it could last so long is if it devolves into a guerrila war. But nuclear weapons, once first used, sort of untie everybody's hands.
d) What does China have to gain from a war with USA so soon? It isn't ready yet. It needs to distract USA elsewhere. Like in Iran. And besides, this isn't a newspaper article that you wrote, therefore it isn't your "althist".
 
Please repost the above in the new thread I set up for this sort of stuff. Now, lets get back to our Malayans...
 
Thlayli said:
Consider it done, imperator.

*salutes*

*Two threatning looking Tarunist agents enter*

Thlayli-kun. How very dissappointing of you to fall under Polarbearum, when you could have served the glorious Tarunist States Atlantis.

*Shoots Thlayli for treason*

*Tarunist Atlantis agents exist the scene*

Tarunist_Atlantis_Agents.jpg
 
*Tarunist Atlantis agents exist the scene*

Lies! Everybody knows they don't exist!

Any other althist ideas? Technically, I do have 1-2 ideas, but I'm too busy with the update right now to elaborate on them sufficiently.
 
Aha, you only got my Roman body double! Everyone knows the real me is both a Mason and a French Musketeer...

*looks at avatar*

So anyways, I would like to do the Oriental World NES, but I simply don't have the time or the experience yet.

Have you guys considered an early collapse of the Muslim world? How about a Chinese victory on the river Talas, accompanied by successful Byzantine campaigns and a lack of leadership among the Umayaad Caliphate...just putting out ideas.

The defeats in Turkey and Chinese armies (from the newly revitalized Tang dynasty, perhaps an early gunpowder using one?) marching into Persia cause a devastating schism in Baghdad that allows the Caliphate to fracture.

The end result is Chinese expansion into central Asia, a Byzantine Jerusalem and Baghdad, and a much stronger Christian presence in Spain. The Saracens never really attack, Italy/Sicily, and Christian states have much less trouble fending off the Magyars and Vikings.

Hmm, I wonder what all this would do to India...

Ideas, issues?
 
Have you guys considered an early collapse of the Muslim world?

Talas is too late, IMHO. Besides, the Chinese are unlikely to get as far as Persia.

The best PoD for that is probably a stronger Khazaria - maybe if the Magyars take over Khazaria (in OTL, they formed an important part of the Khazar army until a faction backed by them lost in a civil war; after that, they fled west, screwing over much of Europe in the process). The new, more militant and agressive "Megyer" Dynasty will reconquer Derbent and push the Muslims out of Caucasus; that will coincide with rebellions in Persia (the Babakist one, for instance) and the restoration of a Zoroastrian Persia; Byzantines, meanwhile, will retake Syria and advance further south. Islam will be limited to Arabia, South Spain and parts of North Africa. That said, Andalusia might become stronger than in OTL - refugees will gather there, and the more difficult startegical situation will force Andalusians to be more creative. Possibly, they will also discover the Carribean eventually...
 
having the Chinese control central Asia.

You did see my guess-the-PoD map a while ago, right (the one where Islam never appeared because the Sabaans who besieged Mecca in the year of Mohammed's birth captured it and killed everybody inside)? There, China still does collapse, even earlier than in OTL due to overstretchment, but Central Asia sees a Sinified Turkish empire.

What of Egypt, though?

Brief independence under a Sultanate, later falls to the Byzantines.

Mamelukes?

The Kardouchi Guard will be an elite part of the Byzantine army.

Byzantines?

Reunite the Eastern Empire, they will. Not sure about further expansion, though. Maybe something in Italy...


Actually... Quite well. It will be Maqqurah's finest hour - with the Arabs fatally wounded and otherwise distracted, the Maqqurans will be able to take over Egypt. They'll lose it later to the Byzantines, but before that they might actually conquer Ethiopia, using the newly-gained resources.
 
(True. Sino/Turkic tributary states were there before Talas, though, the battle simply replaced them with Arab tributary states.)

At any rate, a forceful reunification of the Roman Empire could end a bit bloodily.

When Rome (and the Roman Church) is reoriented into the Orthodox fold, a religious schism might push France and England towards Gaelic-style Christianity perhaps? The new Church, with it's headquarters in Ireland/Wales, could definitely take advantage of the collapse of (Roman)Catholicism.

Anyway, a Northern European Crusade (or something of that sort) is declared against the Byzantines, which annihilate the ill-trained Frankish and Celtic warriors. Byzantium reconquers Southern France/Cartagena (Carthago Nova it will probably be called again), and the Balearics, and poof, Mare Nostrum is Mare Nostrum again. This will probably all collapse after a Kievan Rus/Magyaro-Viking attack on Constantinople, but oh well.

Is this even remotely possible? I wonder what a map would look like.
 
Sino/Turkic tributary states

I mean more than just tribute, I also mean cultural influence. Like in Indo-china in OTL, or like in Korea.

When Rome (and the Roman Church) is reoriented into the Orthodox fold, a religious schism might push France and England towards Gaelic-style Christianity perhaps?

Another thing out of that guess-the-pod map I posted a while ago, there a "Hibernian Church" united the non-Orthodox Christendom.

Anyway, a Northern European Crusade (or something of that sort) is declared against the Byzantines, which annihilate the ill-trained Frankish and Celtic warriors.

My idea was continuous warfare. Interstingly enough, like in Civ IV 1000 AD scenario. Or like with OTL Crusades, but even more intense due to lesser differences.

Byzantium reconquers Southern France/Cartagena (Carthago Nova it will probably be called again), and the Balearics, and poof, Mare Nostrum is Mare Nostrum again.

Cartagena isn't exactly in Southern France... In my idea, Byzantines win even more spectacularily, advancing across Iberia and Gaul and even invading Germania, but eventually having to fall back under pressure (in 13th-14th centuries, after the Byzantines barely pushed back the Mongols).

This will probably all collapse after a Kievan Rus/Magyaro-Viking attack on Constantinople, but oh well.

If we take the PoD that I suggested, Magyar Khazaria will probably have what it takes to prevent a Kievan Rus from coming to be; instead, a smaller, northern and trade-oriented (and Westernized; I had it convert to the Hibernian Church instead of even considering the Orthodox one). Bulgars could be defeated if the Byzantines don't have to fight the Arabs at the same time, and Vikings will only attack the peripheral regions, mostly Iberia (Khazars won't let them take over the Dnieper like in OTL).

I think I found that map I was rambling about...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109128&stc=1&d=1135764128

A different PoD, but similar consequences. This is 1403, "the year when the Byzantine admiral Nicomedes Bryennius and his expedition first arrived in the Yuan port of Saigon, inaugurating a new era in Indian Ocean trade."
 
A great thinker (um, the moderator of the Russian althist forum actually) once said that the key to alternate history is in parallels. Or something like that. The exact wording isn't important, what is important is that by this method, lots of interesting PoDs could be found.

For instance, there are numerous parallels between the French and the Russian revolutions. No, they weren't at all identical, but IMHO its undeniable that there WERE some parallels, until a certain point anyway. Very possibly that "certain point" was foreign military adventures; Revolutionary France, in the end, did manage to break through the Coalition lines, advancing into Austrian Netherlands and Italy, while Spain was forced to reconcile with the Republic - whereas Russian invasion of Poland, in the end, proved a failure. On the other hand, there are also domestic differences; French Republic never was particularily stable until a certain Corsican First Consul fixed things up and transformed it into an Empire in the process, whereas in Russia, despite all,

Furthermore, there are some great people who, in our world, failed to fulfil their potentials fully. More specifically, we have Joseph Fouche (in OTL, Napoleon's minister of police) and Mikhail Nikolaevich Tukhachevsky (in OTL, a prominent Red Army commander). Both of them had skills and ambitions, but didn't have one vital thing - luck.

That allows us to see two possible alternate timelines:

a) (Inspired by Stefan Zweig's "Fouche") After assisting the downfall of Robespierre in 1794, Fouche doesn't hesitate and seizes the opportunity to fill in the vacuum personally. Heads of Jacobins and enemies of the state roll, but apart from that, under Fouche's rule, France like in OTL Thermidorian period becomes more moderate and relaxed, for a while anyway. The Directory still forms, but Fouche, though unofficially, is the one really in charge. Military adventures are less extravagant - no invasion of Egypt will take place, instead, France will concentrate on fighting in German and Italy. Eventually, the Second Coalition will regroup, and will make temporary gains, but will then once more be repulsed, even though French counteroffensives, due to executions of several key military commanders that followed a failed military coup, wouldn't get very far neither. Eventually, Europe will stabilize in the period of so-called "phony war", with France (plus Belgium, Rhineland, Catalonia, Piedmont), sister republics (Batavia, Helvetia, Cisalpine Republic, Venice, Rome, Naples) and aligned countries (Spain) on one side and a coalition of Britain, Portugal, Prussia, Austria, Holy Roman Empire (a.k.a. lots of tiny German states) and Russia (for a while; afterwards, Russia will turn towards fighting Turks, feeling that its interests are no longer threatened; very possibly Pavel I will hold on to power in this world, and in that case Russia will turn towards colonialism in Asia altogether, fighting a rather more intense Great Game with Britain). A few other ideas - Britain will have more problems in this world, for the lack of Trafalgar or Battle of the Nile (i.e. French fleet remains a threat). If we do leave Pavel I alive, it will also have problems in Central Asia, combined with inevitable strife with USA. For all we know, it might collapse due to overstretch if it fails to crush the French Republic economically. Speaking of France, after Fouche's death it will either stagnate like USSR in OTL, either will be led into a new, decisive revolutionary war against the rest of Europe. By then, it probably won't have to fight Russia, but on the other hand will have to face Metternich's Austro-Prussian Alliance that might end up in a revived, powerful Holy Roman Empire (in response to the French threat). Sardinia and Sicily might be rather like Taiwan in OTL, hiding the governments of Piedmont and Two Sicilies respectively.

b) The "Wonder on the Vistula" never happens - Polish forces are crushed by superior numbers and superior mobility, and Tukhachevsky enters Warsaw triumphantly. This frightens the Entente leaders, who agree to revise the Versailles Treaty, fearful that the alternative would be a communist Germany. Just as the Russian Civil War ended, a new round of violence begun with an European coalition amassed against Soviet Russia, combined with renewed rebellions back at home (Kronstadt and the "Little Civil War"). In the Far East, however, the anti-communist forces face problems as USA clearly doesn't want to get involved in another intervention, but also protests the very possibility of Japan intervenning and thus taking over the Russian Pacific coast. So the Soviets struggle on; the revolution in Germany fails and the Soviet invasion thereof is pushed back, but on the other hand the Baltic States are "put on the socialist path of development". After Lenin's death, the anti-communist Entente launches another offensive, coordinated with a "White Polish" rebellion that pushes the Reds out of Poland altogether. Trotsky briefly takes over but is overthrown by Stalin, Bukharin and Kalinin (who introduce an even more liberal (when compared to OTL; in ATL, Lenin wasn't alarmed enough to introduce it in his lifetime) version of the NEP). The star of Tukhachevsky alarms the "triumvirate of the Politburo", but their attempts to ruin his popularity by sending him into unnecessary military adventures fail as he reconquers Bessarabia and defeats the Entente forces in one of the first real tank battles, at Radom. Eventually, Tukhachevsky takes over Russia himself, annexes the lesser Soviet Socialist Republics into the greater, new Russian Socialist Republic (RSR) and signs a peace treaty with the Entente, recognizing the existing situation (with Poland in Russian hands once more). Emigres are invited to return to Russia, continued economic and social reforms take place, foreign relations are stabilized (trade and other cooperation with the ever-neutral USA becomes particularily widespread (this existed in OTL, but here it is to a much greater extent)) and under this facade, a new war machine was being prepared (along the lines of OTL Blitzkrieg; Tukhachevsky's ideas were pretty much along the same lines). The Red Army was replaced with the New Russian Army (NRA :p ). Said army prepared for a final assault on Europe that begun in 1933, just after a particularily questionable election in Germany was challenged by a left-wing coalition backed by Tukhachevsky. WWII begun...

As you might have noticed, both ideas are just that, ideas - rough and undeveloped. But they most definitely COULD be developed into something quite interesting (for instance, the Tukhachevsky scenario could be a nice setting for a NES a la stalin006's Toukon). Secondly, I ofcourse didn't change histories of USSR and France blindly - Fouche, for instance, is neither Lenin nor Stalin, if anything he's more similar to Beria, and the geopolitical situation of France isn't exactly like that in the OTL history of USSR as you might have noticed. And Tukhachevsky isn't a copy of Napoleon neither, and a disastrous autumn retreat from Paris probably wouldn't happen. After all, there is only so far that a parallel between two rather different situations could be led.

*goes back to write about the War of French Succession in a world where Conde came to power after the Fronde...*
 
Quite interesting ideas.

I'd love to deal with some PoD's dealing with the Crusades, as well.
What about Richard the Lionhearted never dying from that freak arrow wound in Normandy, and returning to/besieging and recapturing Jerusalem?

Or better yet...what if during the Second Crusade the Siege of Damascus succeeds, killing Saladin's father (Or would it be grandfather? I'm not sure about this) and firmly entrenching the Crusader states? It definitely is possible, if the Crusaders had merely pressed their advantage they would have taken the city.

I'd love to explore what the European implications would be if the Christian states were made permanent. French and German client states would probably later struggle for superiority against both each other and the Muslims. And stronger Crusader states means a stronger Byzantium. There will be no crusade against Constantinople, as well.

If the Second Crusade succeeded, Saladin would never rise to prominence, Richard would stay in Britain (or probably cement his power in Northern France,) and a likely three way war between Ottomans, Byzantines, and Crusaders will eventually occur. Venice will still become powerful in the Mediterranean, but not as powerful as a resurgent Byzantium. Due to Richard probably making England's French possessions larger and more permanent, OTL southern France will be absorbed into Spain/Aragon.

It's even possible that subsequent Crusades (once the more competent generalship of the Templars and Hospitallers comes into play) could take Cairo, or Baghdad. Spain will likely collapse to the Christians earlier, and Byzantium will last well into the 16th century, but as to it's later course (part of a much more Greek Empire?) I am unsure.

Thoughts?
 
What about Richard the Lionhearted never dying from that freak arrow wound in Normandy

Before we get to Jerusalem bit... poor England. BTW, he won't return to Holy Land because he was busy taking French castles one by one.

Saladin would never rise to prominence,

But someone else would, though only in Egypt.


Would they exist?


Too far away. They will, at best, be able to loot it.

Spain will likely collapse to the Christians earlier

Actually, if we assume that Richard strenghthens his position in France (not a given - for all we know he might be the one who will loot Baghdad and be slaughtered by Mongols, for very characteristic of him it is), Aragon will be too busy picking up Occitania. Crusaders will be too busy exploiting their victories in the Middle East to, say, launch the expedition that in OTL took Lisbon. Andalusia will fall later than in OTL. On the other hand, Christian Spain minus Aragon will be more united for the lack of a Portugal.

Byzantium will last well into the 16th century, but as to it's later course (part of a much more Greek Empire?) I am unsure.

It was quite Greek anyway. IMHO the Latin Empire, or even direct Venetian control, will still come - the Fourth Crusade was no accident. The Byzantines will fall as soon as the next civil war begins, and they had lots of those. Venice and Hungary will have lots of epic "whale vs. elephant" wars on its ruins...
 
Sorry, most of that wasn't about Richard the Lionhearted recapturing Jerusalem, it was about the crusaders (Raymond I assume?) taking Damascus in the Second Crusade.

A small note on Byzantium...

You are correct in the sense that with Crusader Kingdoms stretching to Syria, and a revitalized Byzantium, the Ottomans may not come to power. Perhaps then the successor state to Byzantium once Constantinople is taken by a Venetian coalition would be an Empire of Trebizond? Central Turkey will remain quite Greco-Latin, I suppose.
 
Trebzond... Maybe. IMHO Anatolia will be a mess, like OTL Germany and Italy. Lesser Armenia comes to mind...
 
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