Alternate History Thread II...

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I agree, pansies. I pulled that stunt in an NES in Apolyton, and they loved it. Just another crazy thing I threw at them in that NES...ahhh, good times.

Anyway, I liked Symphony's ideas but I pretty much agree with das on the American one. And I actually had some of those thoughts, Im not just jumping on his side because he sounded smart ;)

How about instead of a unified Americanada, make it an independent America and an independent Canada & Quebec.
 
I say we need a good 2050-2102 dynostopian scenario.
 
The one that I tried to recreate was the one based on the WorldWar series with Turtledove. Of course I never told the players that and let them assume that it was just a Normal World War Two.

However I did warn all players there would be a twist to that nes. They just didnt want to believe me. I also believe me using the acutal name WorldWar for that nes should of been a clue. Its not like I came completely out of the blind. At least I dont think.

Unfortuantley most players these days are only here to win a nes, and not create a story like it used to be. Some of try to stay true but the vast majority of players dont even bother with a story.

Now this is probably not the thread to post this in, but it is a communl thread and we ARE discussing the topic of alien invasion neses at the current time or so it seems. Now one based on some historical factor is always good, it gives the element to realism to what some might say a somewhat unrealistic nes. That is the second problem with such a nes. How do you balance it so the aliens arent entirely overpowering.

You also need to make it so the players still have wars and form alliances and what nots. After all the most enjoyable wars in neses are those that pit you aginst another player, or even better multiple players. These are always a challenge but if you come out of it successfully (eg, my Carthage, erez's Antignot in a stjnes and going way back to the multiple wars in rtor2nes that were fairly uneven SKILORDS Russia comes to mind immediatley) it proves that you are fairly competent OR extremly lucky. Anyway I am getting off topic again as I am not completely sober. The point I was trying to make is that you need to make the aliens in a postion where they can actually be beaten and thus make alliances.

Thus I propose the following for a alien nes.

- Multiple Alien species: Thus having the aliens be player controlled also, and thus more fun for all players in general as it could also lead to human-alien diplomacy and alien-alien diplomacy as well as the regular type of diplomacy and lets face it diplomacy give us the ideas for our stories, the direction of our nation ultimatley and the luck we have.

-The aliens should have varying degrees of technology. Remember it could be possible for an alien race to have spaceships but also blackpowder weapons not inventing projectile weaponry. Warhammer Empire: Steam Tanks come to mind for this kind of scenario. They could land however in the End of the Middle Ages and be somewhat technologically advanced or land in the Renaissance and be an even match!! Remember they are aliens, THEY dont necessarily have to follow our own progression of technology. They might of unified around Renaissance and not bothered continuing with weapon advancement not encountering any other races more advanced than they. Its comepletley up to you. And that I guess is the ultimate sort of appeal to a possible mod. Now do we have any takers, cause I for one will play!
 
Except... if they discover the technology to fuel their ships to travel light years, somehow i think that same technology could cause a hell lot of damage as weapons -_-
 
How about instead of a unified Americanada, make it an independent America and an independent Canada & Quebec.

Technically, I did have an althist with an Americanada, which promptly fell apart into several Anglo-American and Franco-American states. Am having doubts about that althist now, IMHO I could've done it much better. Ah well...

Anyway, there won't be any separate Canada - rather, it would all be one big Quebec. At best, there would be separate Maritimes (but likely they'll be either US or British).

Unfortuantley most players these days are only here to win a nes, and not create a story like it used to be.

Can't say I agree with that observation. The problem is, that doesn't exactly seem to be what they had in mind; yes, they wanted to "create a story", that is to say to roleplay the whole thing, most of them did anyway, but most of them quite clearly wanted a normal WWII NES (the crazy German player doesn't count, he's an exception). And frankly I quite understand them, in part because I rather dislike Turtledove.
 
Everyone creates a story, they want reshape the world according to their vision. Many fail, but few accomplish their own set goals.
 
I don't think a lot of people are in it for the win, just some. i personally like to examine cause and effect and then work wild scenarios out in my head outside of the NES.

And I have a Alt-Hist in my head, entitled Super Seward. I think that would be more realisitc, and allow a continent wide America. And the consequences are facinating, like America feeling it unneccary to get involoved in EITHER World War.
 
IMHO its pretty hard for it to claim Canada without a World War - whether a one started by USA itself or an ongoing one used to gain Canada.
 
Well, it would have been gradual, but at the same time, would have caused a early civil war too... I'm not going ot write it.
 
It is said that the good people die young, but, according to the modern heretics and anti-Imperialists anyway, Albrecht the Great wasn't a good person at all. That was good, because consequently this iron-fisted, ruthless man lived for long after 1558, the year of his greatest triumph, after which the success of the rest of his reign and the survival of the Empire he worked so hard to reform were all but assured. Burgundy, East Flanders, Switzerland, Austria and Bohemia - that's just the major ones, ofcourse - were joined by East Prussia, Poland and West Hungary as the core Habsburg territories, around - or, rather, between - which the Holy Roman Empire was being steadily brought back into the fold.

The Holy Roman Empire officially stretched from Kiel to Florence, but in truth, even now the Holy Roman Emperor's power was limited in Germany itself, whereas in Italy, it was practically nonexistant. Having secured his eastern border and not needing to worry about the northern one (the Kalmar Union was still weak from its civil wars), said Emperor, after a period of consolidation, came before the choice of pursuing a war against the Plantagenets in the west to reclaim West Flanders or, alternatively, going south, to reinforce Imperial power there. The Plantagenets at the time were not at their strongest, yet for a variety of reasons Albrecht the Great decided not to interfere there. An interesting opinion was that he forsaw some of the future events, and accordingly decided NOT to land his blow on the Plantagenets, his blow that, doubtless, could've become a finishing one and accordingly would have radically changed the balance of power in Western Europe - as it, indeed, had under one of his descendants, with the according ultimate consequences for the HRE and the Habsburgs. But that's just as well, anyway, Albrecht went for Italy and ignored the excellent opportunities in Flanders.

Most historians agree that throughout his reign, Albrecht IV worked towards three main objectives - the reorganization and centralization of the Holy Roman Empire, the strengthening of the Holy Church and the stemming of the Turko-Muscovite tide. All three were reflected in the three main goals of his southern operations of the late 1560s-early 1570s. The cause of Imperial Reform would clearly be furthered by the restoration and consolidation of Imperial power in North Italy, the states of which didn't even sign the Treaty of Worms (well, they weren't really asked to sign it, but that's beside the point). The cause of strengthening the Holy Church... well, here we have to take into account Albrecht IV's view on this issue. Basically, he believed in a strong Church, controlled by an even stronger Holy Roman Emperor. The Church, despite its losses in the east, was strong, in name at least. The Popes, however, still considered themselves superior to the Holy Roman Emperors - and the new Pope Leo X - a Medici whose elections bound the Papal States and Florence even closer to each other - was even worse than his predecessors in that regard, agressively trying to establish more control over the Holy Roman Empire and soon querreling with Albrecht IV on the issue of the German bishoprics and the appliance of the Treaty of Worms therein. Fortunately, there was sufficient opposition to Leo X in Vatican, and Albrecht the Great was keen to exploit this.

As for the Turks, well, first of all it would mean domination of Italy by a single power-block - that of Aragon (to which Albrecht IV promised some territories and Cardinal Giuseppe Borgia, from the famed Aragonese family, as Pope; besides, there was the issue of dynastic ties between Aragon and the HRE) and the Holy Roman Empire. In such safe hands, Italy would become a much better challenge to the renewed Ottoman naval power than the way it currently was. Secondly, Albrecht IV was really fond of Venetian strategic position and ship-building capabilities, and believed that it deserved much better rulers than the egoistical and corrupt oligarchs that just weren't up to the task of fighting the Turks. Besides, they by themselves were an impediment to the rest of Albrecht IV's plans for Italy.

Before any campaigns could be started, Albrecht IV, aware of the immense financial problems of going against Florence AND Venice, arranged deals with the bankers of Aragonese Genoa, the German Baltic cities and, ofcourse, Burgundy. They were only too eager to fund the elimination of competition, especially the Genoese...

So in 1567, Albrecht IV proclaimed from Trent (where, to the vague complaints of the resident prince-bishop, he had camped with a large army) that the Treaty of Worms was to be extended to North Italy. This was immediately supported by the Duke of Milan and the King of Aragon, both of whom have been in on Albrecht's plans from the start, the Milanese Duke being swayed by promises of restoration of the eastern slice of Milanese territory stolen by the Venetians after the Italian (or Louisian) War, and also by the Elector status immediately bestowed upon him. The next proclamation - in which the bishoprics were confirmed to be equally subject to the Treaty of Worms - was issued in 1569, from newly-captured Mantua (as Venice, which used to own the city, renounced the Trent Proclamation on the grounds that Venice wasn't even formally apart of the Holy Roman Empire). Having captured the western fifth of Venice's Italian ownings, including, aside from Mantua, the cities of Bergamo and Brescia, the Holy Roman Emperor left them to the Milanese, and, bypassing Venice for the moment, moved forwards for Florence, which, too, had not accepted the Trent Proclamation. Meanwhile, the small coastal state of Piombino, near Florence, was occupied by the Aragonese as a forward position. From there, the Aragonese marched out to link up with Albrecht IV's army at Pistoia in 1571, just after a Florentine-Papal army was routed nearby in a fierce battle that hung at the balance for much of its course, both sides making good use of modern infantry tactics and gunpowder weapons, most notably field artillery, which, though still quite primitive, managed to caused grievous casualties to both sides. But regardless, the joint Aragonese-Imperial force soon forced Siena to submit and join them, and then, together with the Siennese, besieged Florence.

Meanwhile, in the north, a Venetian attempt to retake Brescia was defeated; Venice went firmly on the defensive, preparing new fortifications in Terra Firma. In Rome, Giuseppe Borgia survived an assassination attempt, and soon had to flee to Albrecht's camp; despite a chase and another assassination attempt, Giuseppe succesfully reached the Holy Roman Emperor with a few supporters, who promptly had him declared Pope Eugenius V. After Florence finally fell in 1574, Eugenius V took temporary residence there, and soon many of the Church hierarchs opposed to Leo X gathered around him there. Though not having to fear anything in Florence, Eugenius V still did follow the Imperial army as it marched southwards to besiege Rome.

Back in 1573, the Papal troops succesfully fought back an Aragonese attempt to attack Rome. But now that the Imperial juggernaut was rolling in from the north, the Aragonese attacked once more and the Papal forces had to hide behind Rome's walls to avoid being overwhelmed by sheer numbers. And impressive walls these were, capable, it was thought, of withstanding what was perhaps the greatest siege of the 16th century - a century rich with great sieges, I might add.

Rebuilt since Mehmed II's assault on Rome, the Roman fortifications were, first and foremost, modern. A classical swunken profile fortification of the 16th century, it also utilized "Tiranean" (as used by the Turks at Tirane and some other new Balkan forts) earthern ramparts and bastioned traces. Several lines of defenses were to be overcome if Albrecht the Great was to win. He was not a one to reject such a challenge. And so, Imperial and Aragonese forces secured the countryside. Powerful artillery was dragged up, and Rome was shelled day and night. Immense fortifications were built by the Imperial besiegers, and all relief attempts, including a Venetian one in early 1574, were beaten back. All supplies were cut off: the Aragonese fleet, having captured Ostia and turned it into a base of operations, set up a model blockade. Imperial engineers tunneled their way under Roman walls, planting mines there and often skirmishing with the defenders, who begun digging tunnels of their own to intercept the Imperials. Leo X hadn't the time to properly prepare the supplies, and after a few months mass starvation begun despite last-moment rationing attempts. In the end, it was hunger that won the siege for Albrecht IV and Eugenius V, the latter having also helped by inciting the masses to rise up. The starving, desperate Romans rebelled, and eventually forced the Pope to commit troops from the walls to putting them down. Having learned of this, Albrecht ordered a decisive assault. Imperial and Aragonese casualties were devastating as they climbed up the walls and charged through the remaining tunnels, but eventually they engaged the Papal forces and overpowered them in a gory confrontation. Then they broke in Rome itself...

Barbarossa was avenged. Leo X was captured and sent into a distant monastery, while Eugenius V was recognized by the captured cardinals to be the real Pope, and immediately recognized the Treaty of Worms. Rome was slightly ransacked, but Albrecht mostly succeeded in maintaining disciplinne, and having left a small garrison marched north for Venice, along the way receiving Savoyard and Provencal recognition of the Treaty of Worms and the Trent Proclamation. They, alongwith Siena and Milan, sent troops to reinforce the Imperials as they prepared at Brescia to attack Venice.

Just like he had used Eugenius V against Leo X, Albrecht the Great now used the political opponents of Doge Giovanni II Mocenigo, especially the once-powerful Dandolos. Though a few decades earlier the fabled Venetian patriotism would have been stronger than personal rivalry, now, as corruption grew and power-struggles became more and more intense - and all this on the background of the twin Turkish and Imperial menaces, and, perhaps worse still, social strife caused by the widening of the gap between the city's elite and the commoners - Venice was doomed by the fact of the loss of its unity alone. After all, apart from unity its two great strenghts were commercial (Venetian trade network was crippled by the fall of Constantinople and the Iberian takeover trade with India) and naval military (the Venetian fleet was battered badly by the Ottomans, and though it was still strong Albrecht IV secured the assistance of the Aragonese - and thus, Genoese as well - navy, which was a match, if not more than a match, for the naval assets of Most Serene Republic).

However, things didn't go at all well. The Venetians, somehow forewarned of the incoming assault, begun preparing for a siege beforehand and moving troops from all over the country to Venice. Dalmatia was consequently abandoned and fell like a ripe fruit into Imperial hands. Terra Firma, the Venetian mainland Italian territory, was degarrisoned as well but for a few troops to hinder the Imperial advance. By the time the Imperials broke through, the Venetians had already prepared for this and launched an attack on the Imperial camp, using the exhaustion of Albrecht's men. The attack was driven back, but barely, and the Imperials had to further postpone their assault. The campaign was bogging down, especially as the Venetian fleet defeated the Aragonese one at Lissa, a strategic island in the middle of the Adriatic Sea. Though the Venetian victory - as all their victories in this war - was obviously just a tactical one, strategically the Venetians were also furthering their goal of making the war so expensive and difficult for Albrecht as to make him end it. After all, Giovanni II mused, Venice is practically impenetrable, a natural fortress. And Albrecht couldn't besiege it forever, sooner or later other problems would come up, and he would have to withdraw.

Problems indeed came up after the defeat of the first assault, during which it became clear that the Dandolos were not at all trustworthy, as it was clearly one of theirs who had informed Giovanni of the Emperor's plans and as many of them betrayed the Imperials during the assault itself, destroying its surprise effect altogether and allowing the Venetians to force the Imperials out with heavy casualties, destroying practically the entire fleet Albrecht had built up for this purposes and later defeating yet another Aragonese naval expedition. That was in May 1577; in June of the same year, in the Emperor's absence his young son Friedrich, manipulated by some powerful members of the nobility, including the elector of Brandenburg, tried to launch a foolish coup d'etat, which was easily defeated; however, the Imperial pax clearly begun showing some cracks, encouraging the Venetians, especially as soon after a minor peasant rising commenced in North Germany. Though it was defeated before it could spill out into anything more major, Albrecht IV rightly saw in his absence in Worms one of the factors damaging the stability of his empire. Leaving the siege of Venice to Franz von Schauenburg, a trusted lieutenant, the Emperor with his retinue made haste to Worms, just in time to uncover and crush a conspiracy against him, once more with the involvement of the Brandenburger elector, Friedrich III. As this and his previous plots became uncovered, Albrecht IV decided to confront Friedrich III, and, bluffing about levying more troops here in Germany and using them to put Brandenburg in line, persuaded the elector to apologize (not publically, as publically he was innocent anyway) and agree to the status quo. Albrecht IV also made sure to monitor the activities of von Hohenzollern's agents; evidently, though, no further transgressions happened, especially as Friedrich III was killed by his new horse that evidently wasn't properly tamed.

Albrecht IV died in 1584. Since his arrival at Worms in 1577, he had stomped out numerous conspiracies and furthered the cause of Imperial Reform, not to mention the various other activities, such as patronage for many famous artists and scholars, great public works and construction projects, and, ofcourse, the never-ending diplomatic activities both within and outside of the empire. He never did take Venice, but von Shauenburg took it for his Emperor, five days before the latter's death during his final journey to accept Venice's surrender. Albrecht's second son, Johann I, accepted it in his father's stead. Venice, devastated by war and by the last rising of the starving, desperate lower classes that greatly assisted von Shauenburg, was in a bad shape, and its political institutions in an even worse one after the slaughter of Giovanni and his supporters. Johann I was thus free to end the Most Serene Republic's existance altogether, annexing Terra Firma and Dalmatia into Habsburg holdings directly and turning Venice into an Imperial free city, ruled by the Dandolos under Habsburg supervision. Milan's retaking of the lands lost to Venice after the Italian War was formalized. Piombino was annexed by Aragon. In Rome, a puppet Pope sat. In Central Italy, puppet rulers didn't dare think of defying the Habsburgs. Italy, for now at least, was under the Habsburg boot.

One might ask why did the Ottomans not use this war in Italy to regain Hungary and otherwise make things unpleasant for the Imperials. Normally they would have at least tried to pick up the Venetian holdings in Dalmatia. But the way things were, the Ottoman Empire was in no shape for foreign adventures, being in the middle of an Arabic rebellion and trully Byzantine intrigue at the court of Osman II, a weak ruler who spent most of his time in the harem, trusting various favourites to run the empire. Thankfully, one of his favourites at least was a competent, skilful man - Kirklareli Ahmad Pasha, who managed to maintain order and to pacify most Arab tribes by 1580 after the great victory at Homs. But he also had to thwart the various conspiracies against him, the last of which had cost him life in 1583. So the Ottoman Empire was mostly paralyzed during much of the 16th century, though far from out of the game as later events have shown.

They also had another problem. With Poland-Lithuania destroyed, the Ottoman Empire and Muscovy lost a mutual enemy. Though Muscovy still had grudges with the Catholic church and the Habsburgs, its grudges with the Ottomans and their Tartar allies now came to the forefront, Lithuania having fallen to the Velikiy Knyaz. Speaking of the Velikiy Knyaz, that title, after Dmitriy II's death in 1561, was at first born by his young, weak-willed son, Vladimir I. He died in 1571. His slightly-younger brother, Ivan V, proved much more competent and ruthless, and proceeded to massacre the boyars. His father Dmitriy II would certainly have approved. Having thus asserted his power at home, he moved on to do the same abroad. Soon enough this got him into a war against the Crimean and Astrakhan Tartars, against whom the gulai-gorods previously used to fight the Cossacks (by 1571 practically extinct due to a nifty combination of slaughter and slavery) were employed with much success. Astrakhan was attacked by a large Muscovite army, breaking an unwritten Russo-Turkish agreement and violating Ottoman commercial interests in the north. But the Ottomans were at the time too weak to do anything about it. After Astrakhan fell, Ivan V moved his troops to attack Azov, a key fortress of the Crimean Tartars, who themselves were direct Turkish vassals. Enough was enough, and Kirklareli Ahmad Pasha, using a pause in the wars with the Arab rebels, led in 1576 an expedition to Azov. In a fierce battle, the Muscovites, surprised by the Ottoman attack, were driven back. Ivan V planned a new campaign, but then, plagues broke out behind his lines, a pretty natural result of a lenghty population boom. In combination with droughts, it caused a demographic crisis. While Ivan had to deal with that, the Ottomans reinforced the Crimean garrisons, strenghthened their grip on the Crimean Tartars just in case they might try anything and modernized Azov and some other forts along Tiranean lines. Crimea thus remained outside of the Muscovite grasp.

But this wasn't enough of a compensation for the horrible diplomatic defeat Kirlareli knew he had suffered. All attempts to reconcile with Ivan V have failed. The Velikiy Knyaz found himself a new ally, Albrecht IV; both have once more recognized their respective gains in the previous wars and concluded a "pact of friendship"; it wasn't too advertised, as the pious would've been disturbed, even though the Church was subservient to the Emperor now. But who cared? The eastern front of the Holy Roman Empire was closed now, whereas before the Ottomans, a frightening prospect of an united front to their north appeared...

And as if that was not bad enough, Ivan V, still being at war with the Ottoman Empire (although no military action was taking place whatsoever, not even Tartar raids - the gulai-gorods have done their work well), decided to strike at it where it hurt, without using any weapons but the quill. Aware of the Ottoman internal troubles and seeking to shake Osman II's throne even further, Ivan V was also guided by domestic concerns (where he intended to fortify his power at the same time, thus killing two birds with one arrow) when he wrote his infamous 1578 letter to Gennadius III, Patriarch of Constantinople, callign for him to break with the Ottomans and announce official support for Ivan V as the successor of the Byzantines (as the ruler of the last indepnedent Orthodox country in the world).

Unlike its Russian counterpart (which was forcefully united and subjugated, but at least had the certainty of subservience), the Greek Orthodox Church was in a tumultous, uncertain state. There were many factions and even more opinions on what should be done about its present fairly-dubious situation. Some proposed an alliance with the Holy Roman Empire and a new Florentine Council; others fiercely defended the status quo or something near it; and a nascent Puritan faction in the church hierarchy believed that the Muscovites were right; that it was the sinful practices and avarice that bound the Church to the Ottomans; that a great reform was needed, that the hierarchy needed to be purified and that the church, enheartened by the Muscovite struggle with the Ottomans, needed to break with the Babiali (in OTL called the Sublime Porte) and lead the resistance. Gennadius didn't belong to or sympathise with any party apart from - surprise-surprise! - the one that believed that the Patriarch was always right, which, by the way, still was stronger than all other factions taken together, though not quite as vociferous or active. The cautious old man didn't seek martyrdom, especially for a somewhat dubious (as he saw it) cause; as a realist, he quite clearly saw that, even if the Ottoman yoke was to fall, it would not fall any time soon, much less due to some senile old men with the naivity and idealism of young children saying that it should. But the problem was that he was just about the only one that he knew of (in part because everybody in the Greek Orthodox hierarchy realized that personal opinions are best left unstated) who disagreed with the letter. Everybody else that mattered seemed to believe that at the very least it merits a discussion. The Puritans, especially their rabble-rousing leader Athenagoras who, by a sad twist of fate, went on and on avoiding the stake the Patriarch prayed he would be one day put on, didn't even give it a second thought, immediately stating that they believed Ivan V should be declared the Roman Emperor without any delays (even though he didn't explicitly demand that one himself, only hinting that he wouldn't really be against that). Finally, a secret council of the highest hierarchs was called to discuss this letter and make one final decision on the matter.

Heated, controversial debate ensued. No decision was reached apart from continuing the council next day. All-in-all, it took four days for the Patriarch to finally persuade the majority of the hierarchs that they should support the status quo and should avoid making such rash and foolish moves as Ivan V had suggested. The Velikiy Knyaz himself shrugged when informed of this debacle; he didn't really have his hopes up for this. His real plan did pay off - a schism in the Greek Orthodox Church took place. Athenagoras refused to recognize the decision of the council. Soon, his supporters begun inciting rebellions in the Balkans, and though only a few actual rebellions have happened (and they were put down quite quickly), the Ottoman situation in the Balkans detiriorated sharply. Ottoman relations with the Church almost followed suit, but, quite infamously, Gennadius III - and his closest retainers - had averted this by allowing and assisting the Ottomans to help the Church deal with certain heretics. Athenagoras did get his stake after all... Unfortunately, he became a martyr and a saint in the process, as did those of his followers who had perished, while the numerous priests sympathizing him soon openly or secretly broke with the Church. As they gained much following in all of the Balkan countryside, the Greek Orthodox Church became not just more dependant on the Ottomans than ever before, but also largely confined to the cities. It never quite recovered from this blow, while the Balkans begun transforming into the biggest ulcer on the body of the Babiali.

And meanwhile, in Kiev, to which Ivan V had moved the capital (to a) mark the beginning of a new age, b) distance himself from the Muscovite intrigues and corruption and thus reinvigorate the state and c) bring the old and new lands under his rule closer together), a momentous event took palce as the local patriarch had bestowed upon Ivan V the title of the Caeser of the Rus. The title at first was corrupted to "kesar", but a different form prevailed in the end - the rulers of Russia, as Muscovy from now on was called, were commonly known as "tsars", from "tsesar" as the other corrupted pseudoRussified form of "Caeser" went. Naturally, the Russian Orthodox Church - now united under the Patriarch of Kiev as opposed to the Muscovite one - blessed all and any actions taken by the tsars. Also, having become Tsar Ioann I, the Russian ruler firmly broke away from the Muscovite past by starting a major buerocratic overhaul. Legal reforms followed, most notably easing serfdom - though the Tsar himself had by now at least as many serfs as all other noblemen taken together, the only one who had to suffer from this were the noblemen, for not all of them could afford to create liveable conditions for their serfs, and now were unable to stop them from just going to someone else. Such as the Tsar...

The constant purges of the nobility, though greatly strenghthening the Tsar's power, did create some problems. The diplomatic one wasn't too bad - Russia hadn't much to lose in the eyes of the Catholic world, in that regard anyway. But it also cost the Russian army practically all of its officer corps, the replacements coming from the streltsy and the remaining nobility being quite slow to come. Which is one of the main reasons none of Ioann's ensuing Crimean campaigns have succeeded and he died somewhat disillusioned in 1587, his other campaign - in Finland - having resulted in casualties both to the Kalmarese garrison and to frostbite.

The Kalmar Union - having reformed under Christian III, who turned it into a personal union of an united Denmark-Norway and Sweden-Finland and generally standardized and codified previius priveleges, and other laws along the way - gradually begun to recover at this time. Though the Russo-Imperial alliance threatened it, in short-term it seemed safe as the Imperials were not too eager to attack it, not yet viewing its recovering economy and nascent navy strong enough a threat. Relations with Russia detiriorated (clashing commercial interests, overlapping claims in the former Teutonic Order that were only now renewed), as already mentioned there has even been some fighting in the 1580s, but the Kalmarese have held their ground. Back at home, apart from the aforementioned reforms, they didn't do much, quietly developing their manufactories and commerce.
 
Back to the rest of Europe. I have scarcely mentioned the Plantagenet Empire so far. It was going through very tough times and thus was practically unable to meddle in other people's business. Henry VIII (r. 1551-1562) managed to maintain a semblance of order, but his kingdoms were all rotting from the inside. Feudal strife begun to intensify, the English people was increasingly alienated from the Plantagenets, while the French one didn't completely accept them in the first place, and all this created a very simple problem of administration - the Plantagenets couldn't really rely on the spiteful, independence-minded nobility, nor could they rely on the cityfolk in most cases, while no developed buerocratic system existed and not even Chancellor John Moore was up to the formidable task of creating one. Henry VIII throughout his reign did little else aside from playing the nobility and the burghers against each other (incidentally, his father Henry VII - of Burgundy fame - was doing pretty much the same). He also did his best to stay out of foreign politics, to avoid antagonizing anyone - he knew quite well that a foreign struggle might be too much for the Plantagenet Empire to survive at all.

But in the end, it fell with the minimal foreign involvement. Well, it didn't really fall completely, but, after Henry VIII's death, things begun to slowly disintegrate, especially as John Moore died as well. King Richard III was not ignorant of the pretty bad situation of his empire, he struggled to reform it along Imperial lines (creating a new buerocracy and signing a new contract with the feudals as to bring the state closer together), but this only antagonized people further. Though he did quite masterfully defeat an English separatist conspiracy in 1567, defeating those nobles that simply didn't come to London where they were arrested upon refusing to sign the amendment to Magna Carta took time. By when their forces were shattered at Gloucester, rebellions had already commenced in Ireland, Scotland and Wales; the Welsh were defeated, but in Scotland Richard's army was succesfully ambushed and routed at Oxton. Richard III himself was taken prisoner and forced by King David III to sign a humiliating peace treaty, the Treaty of Edinburgh. Though pledging neutrality in the affairs of the remaining Plantagenet Empire, the Scotts demanded independence for Ireland, Scotland and Wales (in the latter, a new rebellion begun, now led by Morgan "II" Tudor). Such was granted - Richard III needed to free himself and to hurry to save what's left. For by then, a rebellion begun in France... Thankfully, enough of the French nobility and burghers - especially in Paris - remained loyal, but in the south, Acquitaine was practically lost. Richard III managed to defeat the forces of the rebel nobility at Orleans and pushed them out of Gascony by 1580 after a lenghty siege-filled campaign, but when he tried to recapture Toulouse - the heart of the rebellion - he was, much to his surprise, confronted by Aragonese forces as well as rebel ones, and was so taken aback he almost ordered a retreat. But he changed his mind, the Aragonese force wasn't very large anyway and so he decided to attack quickly. The battle went well at first, but then Aragonese reinforcements arrived and forced the Plantagenet forces to fall back, although Richard III managed to preserve disciplinne and defeat an enemy force at Montauban.

The Aragonese still clearly viewed the Plantagenets as Iberian allies, despite their neutrality in the last Navarrese War, and wanted to safeguard their northern flank; they also seeked Mediterranean hegemony, and accordingly intended to secure Languedoc, at the same time denying passage to the sea to the Plantagenets. That would eliminate the Plantagenets as a player in the Mediterranean. An independent Aquitainian buffer state would eliminate them as even a potential one... Naturally, the Aragonese couldn't miss such a chance, and, in exchange for Languedoc, granted support to the French rebel leader, Jean IV d'Auvergne.

This support still didn't prove enough to either take Orleans or retake Gascony, perhaps because Richard III now went on the defensive and prepared said defensive well, perhaps because the Aragonese preffered France divided between two mortal enemies. And in the end, after several inconclusive campaigns, both sides had to agree to a truce, encouraged by the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope. Richard III and the Plantagenets retained northern France and Gascony, but the inland southern France became the Kingdom of Aquitaine, with the capital in Toulouse and ruled by Jean I, who immediately wed his daughter to the young Aragonese king. The Plantagenet Empire was preserved, but lost over a half of its territories. In the remaining ones, Richard III did manage to impose greater royal authority, so perhaps some good came out of it all, not to mention that the empire was no longer badly overstretched. Ofcourse, all this was of scant relief. Richard III himself intended to use the peace to recover somewhat, regroup, raise a strong new army and reconquer all the lost lands with it; unfortunately, he was poisoned in 1592, but his son Henry didn't abandon this dream. For their parts, none of the new kingdoms thought themselves safe, and their rulers at the very least constructed new fortresses and tried to seek alliances; Aquitaine, quite naturally, aligned with Aragon, while Scotland befriended the Kalmar Union and Wales. Ireland was quite unlucky, as internally it was torn by feudal wars and externally was at odds with Scotland, especially after a brushfire naval war caused by fishing disputes (which in turn was caused by Ireland's opportunistic conquest of Iceland in 1580; there wasn't really anyone that could stop them, and the Kalmar Union, whose rulers didn't care one bit about the faraway island, agreed to sell Iceland, although to Scotland as opposed to Ireland out of vengefulness).

Aside from that intervention, the Aragonese were mostly busy in Italy and the Mediterranean during this time.

As for the Iberians... Lets return to the Ottoman Empire one last time, shall we? After all, the Turkish developments at the time were greatly intertied with the Iberian ones. Anyway, though in 1590 Murad III came to power and begun reviving the empire, this was not before the decay of Osman II had greatly set back the Turks. In part due to the efforts of Kirlareli, in part for a myriad of other, external reasons, the Ottomans managed to minimize their territorial losses at the least. However, in the Indian Ocean the territories they lost were of great strategic importance. The Iberians advanced greatly during this time. Though on the land they failed to subdue neither the Adalans nor the Gujaratis, they have shattered an Ottoman fleet at Soccotra, and captured Mogadishu. Pressing on further, the Portuguese captured Muscat itself and some lesser South Arabia ports. Though they from the start were disputed territory, the Iberians managed to hold on to Muscat (and Aden in Yemen) even as the 17th century came, knowing them to be the guarantee of Iberian naval supremacy and hegemony in the Indian Ocean.

As already mentioned, inland attacks just didn't work for the Iberians, with a few very minor exceptions in Black Africa. During this time period, priority temporarily shifted eastwards from Africa, though some trade posts were still being established there. Temporarily relieved from the Ottoman threat, Iberians brought war and trade to South-east Asia, establishing bases on Java and Sumatra and sacking Atjeh after its ruler made an ill-advised arttempt to grab Malacca in 1586. Iberian merchants were gradually (and often quite restrainedly) allowed into Ava, Ayutthaya, Annam, China (through Macao only), Korea and Japan (at first, through Nagasaki only), and so were missionaries. These missionaries would eventually cause rather interesting developments, but in short-term they didn't accomplish too much, apart from some of the Ming Chinese elite actually converting, furthering the alienation of the people and their rulers (though no Emperor, not even Wanli who was quite interested in the Christian teachings, converted; the converts were very few, both amongst the Macao Chinese where the missionaries predictably were the strongest and amongst the younger nobility that was simply interested in various new ideas). Indeed, generally Ming China was slowly, at times unnoticeably descending at the time, as social strife and corruption grew, while Mongol raids intensified. Of more interest was the introduction of European weapons, but it was slow outside of Japan, where, by contrast with China, a central government both emerged and grew in strenght in the last decades of the 16th century. Oda Nobunaga, leader of the Fujiwara family (an ever more major player in Japan's ongoing feudal strife), having united the small central Japanese province of Owari under his rule begun campaigning outside of it as well, gradually defeating all the other Japanese factions. In his campaigns, he made good use of the various European weapons purchased (most notably, in 1575 he used Iberian muskets to devastate Takeda cavalry at Nagashimo (OOC: this is the true divergence for Jaapn, as Oda Nobunaga actually gets muskets earlier and in greater amounts than in OTL, making the eventual victory at Nagashimo even more devastating (with influence on the political aftermatch that speeds up Oda Nobunaga's progress and prevents him falling into Akechi Mitsuhide's trap, as the latter never got such a great chance as he had in OTL and thus had to be content with weaving a web of conspiracies later on that were discovered and thus failed, he himself having to commit seppuku) and as the Iberian merchants are, for this while, more enthusiastic for the Far East, allowing for greater trade ties than in OTL; not to mention, ofcourse, that the Iberians in this world, though still sending missionaries, are much less interested in proselytizing and thus are much less annoying for the Far Easterners to deal with)). By 1573, though not claiming the title of Shogun, Nobunaga deposed the present one (whom he himself had brought to power, but who was now slightly ungrateful) and took de facto power in Central Japan. With the defeat of the Takedas, much of the north soon recognized his power as well. Towards his death in 1591, Oda Nobunaga kept campaigning against the various feudal lords further and further away from his capital, eventually receiving the title of shogun he, as already mentioned, de facto held anyway. Domestically, he wasn't as much of a westernizer and a revolutionary as he was in the military issues, but still did take great interest in the European culture, still encouraged the revival and flourishing of Japanese trade (Japanese merchants by the end of his reign reached as far as Malacca, though admittedly they didn't have much influence there at all). Obviously, a new buerocracy had to be created to govern unified Japan. New agricultural methods, first adopted in Owari itself, were now spread all over Japan. A new fleet, including the famous Oatakebune ironclads, was built.

After Nobunaga's death, his son Oda Nobutada took power. He was a rather weak ruler, but that was perhaps for the best, as he was manipulated by good people, such as Tokugawa Ieyasu, who helped him defeat his brother Oda Nobutaka and his ally Hashiba Hideyoshi at Lake Biwa. Other rebels were defeated as well. Though fleet-building and trade somewhat stagnated, they continued despite all. And notably, the Imperial Family, for centuries now exercising only ceremonial power, begun regaining real one under Emperor Ogimachi and his grandson Go-Yozei. The Emperors didn't seem entirely opposed to trade with Iberia neither, though they thought differently of the missionaries, as did Tokugawa, who persuaded Nobutada to restrain the missionary activities further. In short, Japan was on the ascendant despite some remaining difficulties.

Another power to clearly benefit from the contact with Iberians - thus far, at least - was Ayyuthaya, though it was on the ascendant anyway. It benefited from the trade network set up by the Iberians not only directly, btw - the Ayyuthayan rulers were also known to hire Japanese warriors from the defeated factions via Iberian entrepreneurs that later also helped set up trade between the Odas and the Ayyuthayans. Reinforcing themselves with Japanese mercenaries and Iberian weapons, the Ayyuthayans were able to expand into the Malay lands, force the kingdom of Lan Na (in OTL northern Thailand) into vassaldom, and, most importantly, to break their own dependence from the Myanmarese kingdom of Ava, routing its armies at Martaban in 1584 and securing the delta of the border, disputed Salween River. The Ava attempt to retake their border city of Martaban was driven back with much loss in 1587, and the Myanmarese rulers ahd to accept their defeat, though no treaty was signed and skirmishes continued, while Martaban turned into the most famous fortress in the history of Indochina, built with the help of a few Iberian advisors...

But we seem to have jumped too far east to Far East. We missed the Indian sub-continent - the last part of the world that must be mentioned here. Iberians didn't make much of a headway there, only consolidating their power and establishing new trade outposts and enclaves, most notably in Bengal, where a civil war with direct Iberian intervention resulted in the victory of Lisbon's allies. Said allies, specifically the Sharan dynasty of the Bengali Sultanate, still had trouble maintaining their power and at later points extending it to the northwest. In exchange for continued Iberian assistance, they agre to loan them the city of Chittagong, Bengal's primary seaport that, in better times, was the center of trade with China. It didn't recover from its later collapse even under the Iberian rule, but within the Bay of Bengal at least it did become trade center number one.

West of Bengal and its portion of the Ganges (they control approximately 1/3 of the river's valley and the surrounding regions), the Gangetic Plain remained chaotic even in 1600, as Central Asian (Mughal and Afghan) warlords, local opportunists and Rajput tribes struggled for predominance. Several short-lived empires of various sizes emerged and almost immediately crumbled. The same situation existed all over North India, although in Rajasthan, for instance, the Rajputs succesfully rallied around Raja Vyaghra in 1581 and repulsed all Gujarati and Central Asian attacks, though soon after they begun fighting each other again. As always, despite the defeat in Rajasthan and the failure of several 1570s attempts to reclaim Diu, Gujarat remained quite stable. Under Bahadur III (r. 1578-1594), the Gujaratis forgot about Diu for a while, and instead concentrated on exploiting the power vacuum around them. Temporary gains were made in Sind and Rajasthan; more permanently, the Gujaratis firmly took over the delta of River Indus, and gained ground in Central India. At home, the Gujaratis reformed; their army was "Turkified", as better, more modern artillery was employed (and used with limited success against the Iberians) and as those Rajput tribes that WERE defeated were forced to pay tribute in male babies as well as in gold - those babies were to form the core of the new Gujarati Janissary corps. This system was later extended to the other Hindus. Buerocarcy was overhauled after the move of capital to Champaner; the country was forcefully centralized. Arts and sciences flourished. At the capital city of Champaner, Bahadur III had built a great Jama Masmid mosque, and the famous Porcelain Palace. Gujarat was not at the height of its power, though. It was still decades away from it...

Further south, Vijayanagara, an old Iberian ally, was undergoing some bad times. Since the death of Krishnadevaraya in 1529, the ruling Tuluva Dynasty wasn't doing too well, with weak rulers often domianted by selfish ministers, who, ofcourse, also had to engage in lots of intrigue to maintain their power. Provincial nobles often rose up against them, and indeed against central power. And meanwhile, just to the north from the empire, a foreign threat grew - five sultanates (Bidar, Berar, Bijapur, Golconda, Ahmednegar) that succeeded the Muslim Deccanese Bahmani Empire that fell in the 1510s begun reconciling with each other and working to create a coalition against Vijayanagar. Situation back at home detiriorated further overtime due to numerous succession crises. After the death of the young emperor Sadashivaraya (OOC: a fly of butter) in 1555, the worst crisis came as at the same time the empire was left leaderless (Sadashivaraya's only son had also died by then), the forces of the Deccanese Sultanates begun attacking Vijayanagara's northern provinces, while a new series of rebellions begun in the southern provinces.

In the great (according to Panfilio Cortez (a famous Iberian mercenary, traveller and writer of the late 16th century), as big as Rome in its better days) imperial city of Vijayanagar itself, various factions fought for power. Thankfully, though, one leader proved at the same time most convenient, most capable, most ruthless... and most lucky, as well, for he had struck upon some Iberians in early 1555. Indeed, Aliyaramaraya (or just Rama Raya, as he was most famously known) was very lucky, for these Iberians that came to his command tent offered him the service of three thousand Iberian mercenaries (including Cortez, ofcourse) that just retired from Iberia's service. Ofcourse, according to the conspiracy theories, the Iberians sent these soldiers to assist their allies and at the same time to avoid alienating the Deccanese Sultanates should they triumph; interestingly, Cortez himself hinted that this was the truth. Regardless, Aliyaramaya, being a good commander and having taken much interest in these Iberians before, having become even more impressed with their service during the near-bloodless coup d'etat against Aliyaramaraya's court enemies that briefly gained predominance (at this point one must mention that Aliyaramaraya, from a cadet branch of the dynasty, was also an important general and during Sadashivaraya's childhood a regent), ordered them to help train the Vijayanagaran army, while himself, just after being crowned as emperor, negotiating a purchase of firearms and cannons from the Iberian merchants in Goa.

The shameful fact was that, unlike its Deccanese enemies, the Vijayanagarans hadn't employed gunpowder in their army at all, relying instead on unreliable and lumbering war elephants (as had their enemies, by the way, negating this advantage). Until now. Oh, sure, they still used elephantery, and cavalry, and foot soldiers, but in 1559, in the decisive Battle at Talikota, the united Deccanese army's volley of cannonfire was answered with a barrage, while the infantry charge was broken by musket fire well-followed by a good old cavalry charge. Elephants and the rest were only really used to break the remnants of the Deccanese forces. The Muslims fled beyond the border; Vijayanagara was secure there for now.

Leaving some troops and engineers to erect new border fortifications, Aliyaramaraya hurried south. By the time of his death in 1573, all of India south of Godavari was under some degree of Vijanagaran control. The empire was now succesfully centralized, numerous reforms took place, greater ties established with Iberia, and several campaigns forced most of the Deccanese Sultanates to pay tribute, while Bijapur (south of Godavari), as already implied, was turned into a vassal state.

Ofcourse, history knows no happy endings. After Aliyaramaraya's death, Vijayanagara fell into civil war, and though the empire's core was preserved Bijapur and Madurai (near India's tip) were lost, and the Deccanese Sultanates invaded against in 1579; though once more defeated, this time the victory was almost pyrrhic, though in the end both sides recouped their losses. A cultural renaissance late in the 16th century didn't coincide with a political one - as Vijayanagara grew ever more corrupt, stagnant and dependant on Iberian commerce and "advisors" (that infiltrated the court, alongside the missionaries, in the days of emperor Srirangaraya of the 1580s-1590s; this alienated the rulers from the people badly, as did the spread of Christianity ofcourse), its future was ever more uncetain. But for now, it lived.

All-in-all, the world, while moving through some regional wars, was mostly at peace. This peace would extend into the first few years of the 17th century. And then, well... you'll see.
 
Sorry, I'm beginning to lose inspiration for this. I think I'll carry it to 1700 or the whereabouts - for the sake of completeness - and then put it on pause. I have lots of other ideas that I've been brainstorming about lately anyway.
 
das said:
Sorry, I'm beginning to lose inspiration for this. I think I'll carry it to 1700 or the whereabouts - for the sake of completeness - and then put it on pause. I have lots of other ideas that I've been brainstorming about lately anyway.

Actually das, if you don't mind I'd like to take this up for my next NES (I've been slowly working on the update for A time of white sorrow for the last few days, but inspiration is lacking :(). If you do can you run the alt hist up to the 1700s or so, but not have the europeans discover Transoceania, as that would be a fun period to run the NES in, and I have a system nicely worked out :evil:.
 
Regarding posts 1451 and 1452......godamnit das you freak of althistory.
 
not have the europeans discover Transoceania

Hmm... Could they discover it *a little* (I do pre-plan some things, after all)? Just the Vinland and surrounding regions. It'll make things more fun for the Amerinds anyway, as they will have slightly more time to recover from the epidemics.
 
das said:
Hmm... Could they discover it *a little* (I do pre-plan some things, after all)? Just the Vinland and surrounding regions. It'll make things more fun for the Amerinds anyway, as they will have slightly more time to recover from the epidemics.

Its your alt hist of course ;) - my plan in the NES was to have multiple possible routes and nations with the opportunity then have a little RNG program run each turn to see which route gets discovered, making htings truly unpredictable. NESers being how they are there will be a heck of race for the new world using prior knowledge, and I like the idea of the uncertainity having everyone drastically change their plans mid-NES :evil:

Do what you like anyway...
 
Wow thats a good idea...I claim something, not sure what. Your a quality mod though, so I'm in.

Portugal was just about to make its move and you ended the NES! *sigh*
 
Well, as I said they probably won't get much done. Some trade posts at best. And due to certain events, well, the settlements just might be lost and much knowledge about them forgotten. We'll see...

Oh, and its not just the Europeans that will be participating in the colonial race in this world. ;)

And Azale, its abit too early to claim anything, by 1700 there will be many geopolitical changes world-wide.
 
das said:
Oh, and its not just the Europeans that will be participating in the colonial race in this world. ;)

Precisely why I wanted the "random discovery" set up - it could be decades before the europeans get a look in whilst the asians take the west coast, or they could get it right away.

And Azale, its abit too early to claim anything, by 1700 there will be many geopolitical changes world-wide.

I think he was talking about my NES :lol:. How are the Iberian west african holdings do anyway at this point in the Alt-hist?
 
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