Alternate History Thread II...

[Symphony D.]

Completely unrelated to anything discussed in the recent past, I give you but one tantalizing image:

(relative size is accurate, distance is not)

 

[das]

Nice, but sadly makes little or no sense to me. The left globe's main landmass seems vaguely familiar...

 

[North King]

Terraformed Mars and Venus? Just guessing.

 

[Azale]

I think your right NK...Venus is approximately the same size as Earth and Mars is about 1/4th if I'm correct...

Coolies.

 

[Israelite9191]

Medieval changes weren't often as dramatic, but had a greater long-term effect, one might argue.

That's pretty much what I was getting it, I suppose I am not as good as you at getting to the point. The rest I pretty much can't argue with. If the Normans are focused on Spain and not England, perhaps we could see a Norman state on the north and west coasts (those most easily accessible), and with the Norman invasions possibly a resurgance in Andalusian power, that, combined with the technological advances of the Muslims on the Indian Ocean transferred through the Muslim network of intelligentsia allowed the Andalusian Muslims to become a colonial power?

 

[North King]

That's pretty much what I was getting it, I suppose I am not as good as you at getting to the point. The rest I pretty much can't argue with. If the Normans are focused on Spain and not England, perhaps we could see a Norman state on the north and west coasts (those most easily accessible), and with the Norman invasions possibly a resurgance in Andalusian power, that, combined with the technological advances of the Muslims on the Indian Ocean transferred through the Muslim network of intelligentsia allowed the Andalusian Muslims to become a colonial power?

"Muslim network of intelligensia?"

 

[das]

He is reffering to the cultural and economic interconnection present in the Medieval Islamic world. Though I somehow doubt the seaworthiness of dhows in the Atlantic Ocean...

I don't think they'll need any of that anyway; oceanworthy ships aren't all that hard to design, especially with their educated cadre, if they set that as a goal. After the rumours of Avalon leak through, and other Atlantic European powers join in, Andalusia will be bound to do that as well...

After I finish the mega-installment for my present Fructidor althist, I'll make a huge contribution to the Canute world as well. Like a map for the 16th century (when the changes get global enough).

 

[Israelite9191]

"Muslim network of intelligensia?"

Because I'm a Jew anything I say about Muslims is racist? Anti-Semitism! Anti-Semitism! Das is right, that is what I was refering to.

EDIT: I was actually thinking more of astronomical advancements. I agree that dhows on the Atlantic without monsoons would be pretty useless, although I don't know about Chinese style junks.

 

[North King]

Erm. No? You assume that every argument is an attack on Judaism?

YOU LITTLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

*ahem*

Dhows... dhows...

 

[das]

Because I'm a Jew anything I say about Muslims is racist? Anti-Semitism! Anti-Semitism!

Actually, Arabs are Semites. And as the Jews generally intermixed with other populations over time, Arabs are even more Semitic than Jews. So perhaps Anti-Semitism should be redefined as extreme hatred of Arabs?

On the other hand, the Maltese are even more Semitic due to a mix of Punics, Arabs AND Jews, so anti-Semitism is actually Maltophobia.

And lastly, did I mention that I probably don't understand what the hell are both of you talking about? I thought NK was complaining about the anachronism of the term "intelligentsia".

 

[North King]

I was mocking the idea that there was an organized transmission of ideas from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic based solely upon religion. So you were close, das.

 

[Symphony D.]

Terraformed Mars and Venus? Just guessing.

Yes, though the questions are how, and why. I will say, for now, that it is actually Venus before Mars. The rest, I'm still working on.

 

[das]

I was mocking the idea that there was an organized transmission of ideas from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic based solely upon religion.

Well, cultural interconnection on such a level does help, though there were other factors developed in the wake of the Caliphate. Like the commercial one...

 

[Israelite9191]

There is also the fact that Islamic (I say Islamic and not Muslim because this includes Jews and others in the Dar al-Islam, not just Muslims) scholars transcended borders in their quest for knowledge, although they generally preferred Dar al-Islam to anywhere else.

 

[das]

I say Islamic and not Muslim because this includes Jews and others in the Dar al-Islam, not just Muslims

Um... You do realize that this sentance make as about as much sense as your past claims of immense Lapp contributions to the Enlightenment?

Agree with your point, however - cultural ties, as I said, do matter.

 

[Israelite9191]

When did I say that? I was probably on some rampage at the time about the Lapps, I go through phases like that with different cultures. Although, I still don't remember that and until you produce evidence I will deny it vehemently, vehemently!

That statement does make sense. When making a diference between the phrases "Islamic" and "Muslim," "Islamic" refers to the culture of Dar al-Islam, while "Muslim" refers to adherents of the religion of Islam. In the Middle Ages there were several prominent scholars who could be described as "Islamic" but not "Muslim," the first that comes to mind is Maimonides (a Jew), but there are several others I can't think of at the moment.

 

[das]

Well, I suppose that Islamic could be used as an adjective for citizens of Dar al-Islam... Although technically, Islamic and Muslim are synonyms, especially in English.

As for the Lapps, I'll search for them later. I think it was somewhere on this thread, though...

 

[Israelite9191]

They are used synonymously, but in technical grammar should be used as seperate phrases.

 

[das]

Fair enough. Found the Lapps, btw.

You would be surprised how much little minorities have given to the overall spectrum of advancement. I know that this is a particularly bad example do to the exact topic, but look at the Hungarians. They were the largest minority in the Austrian Empire, but contributed the greatest amount of science and military strategy. They developed the cavalry tactics that would be used by every major European power form Napoleonic France to Austria. They also lead major developments in farming technologies and cross-breeding of wheat species. They lead development in several other fields, but I can't remember which right now. I am using the Hunarians as a test case. This is something that took place among minorities in many other areas of Europe. Lapps helped develop Scandinavian industry, the Scottish did the same in Britain, and Jews developed European banking. BTW, there were more Jews who became millionaires from banking than Gentiles despite the population difference, so I think there was a bit more influence among Jewish bankers. None of this woudl have been capable ifnot for the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment spured on the emancipation movements that would lead to the emancipation of these peoples. And don't get me started on the gifts of the Protestants in Catholic countries and particularly vice-cersa.

Mind, if they DID contribute, please tell me the source. Stranger things turned out to be true... though neither Wiki nor Britannica seem to have made any mention of this.

 

[Israelite9191]

I'm sure I had a source at the time, but that was a long time ago. Sorry, I can't be of service. I seem to remember getting it from a book, but upon further research I found parts of the book to be total crap, although not the particular part I found that in.