Alternate History Thread II...

[Symphony D.]

Interesting thought: Canute the Great's Northern Empire (England, Norway, Denmark, some of Sweden, various islands) isn't partitioned on his death in 1035.

 

[das]

Actually I have often pondered on that topic (or Norwegian, rather than Norman, conquest of England...), but haven't developed it into anything meaningful - there were always other things to do.

I'm afraid that the main problem with large Dark Age/early Medieval empires is that they tend to fall apart upon death. But if a Kievan Rus-like system is adapted with rotation and retention of ties between various components, it could recentralize later on, like in the 13th century.

That certainly would alter much. For one thing, by tying these states together (and embroiling them in each other's strifes), the Celts and the Swedes will get a temporary reprieve. I'm sceptical about the ability of the former to use this in any way, but the Swedes might launch an earlier bid for Baltic power. On the other hand, it is perhaps more likely that they will be routed by the English... Incidentally, Novgorod will also prosper in this world if it allies with the Anglo-Danes against Sweden.

Another thing is that the Aquitainians/Normans might unite France, and there won't be no Hundred Years War; instead, the Franco-Imperial struggles over Lothringen will continue. All this taken together might also mean a lack of Crusades, as pretty much everyone will have better things to do, as opposed to OTL where England was more embroiled in southern affairs, France was more interested in putting a halt to its rather unsuccesful wars and HRE had whatever it had (only in this world it would be weaker). The Pope would be too busy gloating over Barbarossa's defeat at French hands.

 

[Drake Rlugia]

I have long searched for something to write over this summer. I have wanted to write an alternate history, but sadly, nothing out-standing has come to mind. I am trying to find an idea that is unique (as in, it hasn't been used before), but also not too complicated. (Namely something like no nationalism..just too complicated and I scrapped it).

I have often pondered upon a Catholic England, namely by making Henry VIII's first wife produce a male heir--or atleast, having the son originally born of that union live. Aside from that, I have also wanted England's crown to merge with that of Spain's, by getting rid of Johanna of Castille, making her die of child-birth or something of that sort, also mooting Charles V by having him die as an infant.

What do you guys think? How would this effect the world?

 

[das]

Problem is, Henry VIII may not be enough; by breaking with the Pope he merely craftily hijacked the reformation. But had he not done this, it might have simply been belated and more radical. I suspect that England would have had its own Wars of Religion then.

 

[Drake Rlugia]

Yes..if I recall, Protestanism was quickly gaining popularity in England, much before Henry VIII created the Angelican Church..which wasn't really Protestanism, just Catholicism headed by the King.

Obviously any time where Henry VIII remains Catholic is going to be very bloody and violent; worse so than "bloody" Mary's reign. He was not a favorite amongst the Protestants correct? If I recall, many were burned at the stake in his reign. Should a "War of Religion" hit England, who would be at head of the Protestants? No one out-standing comes to mind, as most of the influencial "Protestants" in Henry's government were merely those who supported his break with Rome..not actual Protestants influenced by the Reformation.

 

[das]

I think that the northern nobility is likely to largely join the Protestants. It would have good chances of finding support and sympathy in Scotland...

If the Catholics do win, there might be some interesting effects like a Protestant Ireland.

 

[alex994]

I was under the impression that Ireland was mostly Catholic for much of its history after conversion to Christianity?

 

[das]

Nah. Well, by the 11th-12th century or so I suppose it was, but for a few centuries it de facto had a church of its own, though this was merely because Rome's reach was not very good back then.

In any case, a fanatically-Catholic England may prove enough to distance Ireland from Catholicism.

 

[Israelite9191]

Ireland, until the intervention of Rome in the Synod of Cashel in 1172 followed the Celtic Rite (or Rite of Collumcille). After that, they were devout Roman Catholics, though with a slight leaning towards traditionally aspects of the Celtic Rite. In fact, small communities of Celtic Rite Christians may well have survived long past King Henry VIII in the convents and monasteries, as Celtic Christianity was heavily focused on the monastic lifestyle. Protestantism, I believe, did not really penetrate Ireland until the Plantations of Ireland in the 17th century, so I doubt the Irish would switch to Protestantism to be different from the English.

 

[das]

Not necessarily. It was good enough for Scotland, though there it was a struggle with their own Catholic rulers. I can quite easily imagine a milder Protestantism flourish in Ireland in opposition to a Papal-backed English invasion.

 

[Dachs]

Idea unrelated to those above: Manuel Comnenus defeats William the Bad in Italy in the 1150s, which gives us not only a Byzantine southern Italy for awhile, but also allows him to concentrate on the East and crush the Seljuks in the sixties.

A crucial part of this will be getting a good relationship with Venice and keeping it. A combination of no Myriocephalum, a Byzantine Apulia, and no Fourth Crusade could keep the Empire alive at least another few centuries. That, and there won't be any Ottomans to run around...Anyway, I'm looking for good Byzantine PoDs, because I'm biased that way. Maybe the Sclerina doesn't join Constantine Monomachus, so Maniakes can secure Italy from the Normans in the 1040s and 1050s?

 

[das]

To save the Byzantines, a) have them win at Manzikert and b) tie down the westerners in some more internicine strife. Not sure about exact PoD.

Nice idea about Italy, but IMHO its too late. We should probably simply prevent the Normans from getting there in the first place - distract them with some Spanish opportunities, perhaps?

 

[Israelite9191]

(Back to Canute POD) Two things. First, would Ireland necessarily have been brought under the same crown as England, at least so soon, if Canute's empire had survived? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like a united Denmark-England-Norway would have been more concerned with the Baltic, Germany, and Continental Europe than with Ireland. Second, due to the fact that Ireland did not give into pressure to adopt the Latin Rite Christianity until approximately a century after Canute, and only upon invasion by the heavily pope influenced Normans, in the case of a major religious war in England Ireland would have either continued on being Celtic Rite Christians undisturbed, or if they had been conquered and forced to adopt the Latin Rite, revert to Celtic Rite Christianity.

 

[das]

Noone ever said that Ireland would fall to the Anglo-Norwegians. If anything, I suspect that this might be a good PoD for retention of Irish independence. Actually - don't get too excited, Swiss! - Ireland strikes me as well-positioned for the creation of a colonial Atlantic expansion if there isn't any real threat from England. That would be the most logical path of expansion for Ireland, if only it could overcome its internal divisions.

 

[Symphony D.]

[...] but it seems to me like a united Denmark-England-Norway would have been more concerned with the Baltic, Germany, and Continental Europe than with Ireland.

I never said it either, however, Vikings were just as content plundering Ireland as anywhere else, and already had it ringed with their possessions, and if it forms a sort of decentralized regime as das suggests, then it's highly likely the semi-independent sub-units will set out on their own agendas to grab whatever's handy and nearby.

 

[das]

Its rather more likely, however, that they would concentrate on the predominance of the North Sea, the sphere of most common interest. Their main enemies would be the post-Carolingian states, not Ireland or Sweden, though raids against both are bound to take place.

 

[Israelite9191]

I assumed from your discussion of Ireland adopting Protestantism that you were implying the fall of Ireland to Aglo-Norse. Obviously, I was mistaken. I also think that this POD, with an independent (and possibly colonial as you suggest Das) Ireland could create a more interesting religious situation in Europe. With an Ireland that never falls to the Anglo-Normans, the Celtic Rite would continue. With the coming of the Reformation I could see the Celtic Rite possibly seperating from Rome and forming its own church (it would practically be a seperate church in any case, but this would still be monumental). With a relatively strong and independent Western church to look to, the Reformation might be even stronger in Europe. Perhaps the Irish Church itself could gain adherents on the Continent and in Britain should it be seen as an alternative to the Latin Rite not marred by the Latin Rite's scandals.

 

[das]

Protestant Ireland was mentioned in connection to Catholic England.

Somehow I doubt that Celtic Rite has many chances of gaining support elsewhere in Europe; it seems to be rather specific to Ireland. It did have some support amongst the Anglo-Saxons, but it lost that rather early even in OTL; at best it would have some support amongst the Scotts, the Bretons and possibly the Basques for good measure, but that too isn't very likely.

In the Americas, however, there are opportunities...

 

[Israelite9191]

Actually, in the early Middle Ages, the Celtic Rite was a serious threat to the Latin Rite. It is true that they didn't have as many adherents, or nearly as much territory (mainly the British Isles), but what they did have was control of the monasteries, and thus knowledge. If the saying that "knowledge is power" is true, then the Celtic Rite at the begining of the Middle Ages was a serious power and threat to Rome, which is why Rome fought so hard to squash it. If I am correct the Celtic Rite survived in some monasteries outside of Ireland past the main councils that eliminated it, and then continued on in some monasteries in Ireland past the Anglo-Norman invasions. But that is not the point. The point is is that should Ireland remain independant and the Celtic Rite survive, then the Reformers of the Six Celtic Nations, England, and elsewhere would have an alternative to the Latin Church of Rome. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Martin Luther really just want reform within the Church? If that is the case then having a non-reform needing church (except possibly reforms to strip women of power and increase persecution of non-Christians) in existence to fall back on would be a real boost, and perhaps a Martin Luther with the alternative of bringing his followers over to the Latin Rite might do just that and instead of numerous Protestant Churches springing up all over Europe, the spread of the Celtic Rite would occur. Of course, a more traditionalist and less radical view of events would be that the Celtic Rite would provide an inspiration to the Protestants of Europe, further empowering the Reformation and creating an even larger number of people seperating from the Latin Church. And of course the Americas, a proverbial oyster waiting for the shucking.

I know that is what you were saying, Ireland responding to England. However, if England never invaded and fiercely oppressed Ireland (I would even venture a statement of an attempted genocide of the Irish on the part of England) I do not see why the entire population would suddenly abandon centuries of faith and tradition just because their nutty neighbours to the east decided to be Catholic and not Protestant. The Irish, if they are known for one thing (besides the Irish 7 course meal of a potatoe and a six pack of beer), it is their faith and reliance on traditions. In my mind there is very little that could possibly have caused the Irish to abandon Celtic Rite Catholicism for Protestantism. Perhaps the Reformation on the Continent might inspire the Irish to finally seperate entirely from the Church in Rome, but I doubt they would adopt the Protestant theology of the Continent.

 

[das]

"knowledge is power" is true, then the Celtic Rite at the begining of the Middle Ages was a serious power and threat to Rome

But as the Celtic Rite was scarcely a threat to Rome beyond the British Isles, the saying is false. Knowledge isn't power, power is power, and Rome had power, and thus crushed the Celtic Rite's attempts at expansion. It does however have a reasonable chance of surviving in Ireland if a Canutian Empire survives, IMHO.

The point is is that should Ireland remain independant and the Celtic Rite survive, then the Reformers of the Six Celtic Nations, England, and elsewhere would have an alternative to the Latin Church of Rome.

Not outside of Ireland. The Celtic Rite doesn't strike me as very expansive or dominating by its very nature; their monastic culture is isolationist and introverted, as opposed to the expansive, cosmopolitian Roman Catholicism. IMHO a tense coexistance (or, after a while and perhaps an exchange of unsuccesful crusades, both sides ignoring each other's very existance) is rather more likely; Ireland would become isolated on several levels (cultural, political, religious, and in relation to this and the Anglo-Norse predominance in the North Sea economic) from the rest of Europe, and instead would turn towards the Atlantic.

it is their faith and reliance on traditions.

Same with England JUST before it converted. And even afterwards, for some reason...