Alternate History Thread III

Dachs · May 10, 2007

All of these maps hurt my soul. You people depress me.

Strategos is violating the strong tradition of Eurocentrism we have in this thread, with the obvious result that he will be struck dead by Saint Constantine XI the Ethnomartyr and Destroyer of Anyone With Whom I Disagree, and Cuiv just gave Moesia, Egypt, and Dalmatia away to the barbarians.

Cuivienen · May 10, 2007

Dachspmg said:
All of these maps hurt my soul. You people depress me. Strategos is violating the strong tradition of Eurocentrism we have in this thread, with the obvious result that he will be struck dead by Saint Constantine XI the Ethnomartyr and Destroyer of Anyone With Whom I Disagree, and Cuiv just gave Moesia, Egypt, and Dalmatia away to the barbarians.

Egypt is still ruled mostly by Greeks and somewhat by Egyptians. There are a fair number of Arabs there, but the Egyptians converted to Arab Christianity, they weren't conquered by Arabs. (Arab Christianity, which is essentially Arianism in another guise, won over most of the Egyptian population, which, after a long series of tensions with the rabidly orthodox Hellenes, seceded while the Hellenes were busy fighting the Avars for the umpteenth time.)

There is no real "Byzantium-like" nation in this timeline. The Hellenes are very rabidly orthodox Christian, but orthodox Christianity here is iconoclastic with strong monophysite/Nestorian leanings, though Greece and Thrace lean iconophile (and are therefore often neglected except militarily by the emperors). The most powerful patriarch is the Patriarch of Jerusalem, who duels with the Patriarch of Antioch for power over the church.

After pagan Rome cracked down on Christianity and eliminated the Bishops of Rome entirely, there was a realignment of power within the Church. There were then five Patriarchs, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch as well as Ephesus and Athens, of whom the Patriarchs of Alexandria have since been expelled from the orthodox Church for their Arab Christian beliefs.

Dachs · May 10, 2007

Sorry about that - by barbarians I meant anything other than a central government in Rome or Constantinople, not Arabs or anything religious specifically (although I never did like those iconodules). Even Antioch is a little annoying to have as the capital.

As soon as Persia reunites, the capital is going to have to go to the Straits or the Empire will face decapitation. Even Khusrau Anushirvan managed to seize Antioch briefly.

Cuivienen · May 10, 2007

Dachspmg said:
Sorry about that - by barbarians I meant anything other than a central government in Rome or Constantinople, not Arabs or anything religious specifically (although I never did like those iconodules). Even Antioch is a little annoying to have as the capital. As soon as Persia reunites, the capital is going to have to go to the Straits or the Empire will face decapitation. Even Khusrau Anushirvan managed to seize Antioch briefly.

I think you will find that Byzantium is attacked about once every ten years by the Avars. The Hellenes care little for Thrace.

Dachs · May 10, 2007

That makes them silly. At least the fools managed to keep Anatolia.

Israelite9191 · May 10, 2007

It looks great Cuiv, except that you have your Orthodoxies confused. I wouldn't say anything except that I consider Eastern Christian Theology, particularly in the formation period, a specialisation of mine. The Patriarch of Jerusalem is Oriental Orthodox, as was the Pope of Alexandria. Religiously, I would think it more likely that Oriental Orthodoxy would spread to Arabia from an independent Egypt, not the Arabs develop a seperate Arian dogma all on their own. Basically, it should be Arab Copts "riding to the rescue" of an embattled (by the Patriarch of Constantinople and Patriarch of Antioch) Pope of Alexandria. This would have much the same effect on Egypt, but could possibly bring the Oriental Patriarchate of Jerusalem under the same leadership as Egypt due to the ecclesiastical superiority of the Pope of Alexandria (who is today the strongest figure in Oriental Orthodoxy and was the strongest figure in Christendom period until the split between the Oriental Orthodox Church and the future Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches), though it could also fall under Antioch (see below).

As for the Patriarchate of Antioch, it doesn't make much sense for it to become a center of Hellenistic Christianity. Antioch was particularly famous for lacking Hellenistic influences and being more in line with Rabbinic Jewish theology (in this sense it is similar to the Tewahido Church of Ethiopia, another Oriental church). In fact, in a world like this where the Oriental and Eastern schism is so much more important the Syriac Patriarch would probably win out over the Greek Patriarch, resulting in a Syria that falls in line with the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Basically, the Hellenic empire around Antioch should be split in two, one Oriental Orthodox and heavily Semitic with its capital at Antioch and one Eastern Orthodox with its capital at Constantinople, or if Constantinople has been layed to waste or some such Athens. Jerusalem could possibly fall under the Antiochian empire, but it could also likely fall under Arab-Oriental Egypt. I would go in favor of the former, but they both have good arguments for them.

All in all it looks like a splendid TL, you just made an extremely common mistake of not discerning between Eastern and Oriental (Myaphisite, Monophysite) Orthodoxy. I really hope you mod it, it looks incredibly fun. I also like your mod style from past experience, so I would jump at this one.

EDIT: EDIT: Oh, and as for India and Persia, a stronger Oriental Church would likely increase the strength of the somewhat related but eclessiastically seperate Assyrian Church of the East, which wiould in turn create a much stronger Christian presence in Mesopotamia and India, and possibly in Iran as well. In fact, I would definately see the possibility of the northern Mesopotamian Persian state being Assyrian Orthodox, and possibly also the other one and the one in the Persian Gulf.

Swissempire · May 10, 2007

Dachspmg said:
directed at Swiss

What do i have to do with any of this...?

Disenfrancised · May 10, 2007

Q@das: for your yet to be unamed PoD map, if the British isles were freed from the french menance by the valiant Arcadians, how on earth did the french manage to hold onto the colonies in OTL Georgia and Jamacia whilst loosing GB?

Cuivienen · May 10, 2007

Israelite9191 said:
It looks great Cuiv, except that you have your Orthodoxies confused. I wouldn't say anything except that I consider Eastern Christian Theology, particularly in the formation period, a specialisation of mine. The Patriarch of Jerusalem is Oriental Orthodox, as was the Pope of Alexandria. Religiously, I would think it more likely that Oriental Orthodoxy would spread to Arabia from an independent Egypt, not the Arabs develop a seperate Arian dogma all on their own. Basically, it should be Arab Copts "riding to the rescue" of an embattled (by the Patriarch of Constantinople and Patriarch of Antioch) Pope of Alexandria. This would have much the same effect on Egypt, but could possibly bring the Oriental Patriarchate of Jerusalem under the same leadership as Egypt due to the ecclesiastical superiority of the Pope of Alexandria (who is today the strongest figure in Oriental Orthodoxy and was the strongest figure in Christendom period until the split between the Oriental Orthodox Church and the future Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches), though it could also fall under Antioch (see below).

Given that the PoD is in 180 CE, long before any of the Patriarchs were any more than local Bishops, I don't see any problem with shuffling around how the Patriarchates turned out. I could see the Arabs aiding their brethern in Egypt rather than simply converting them, but the Arabs never did more than fight the Hellenes; Egypt is culturally still Greco-Egyptian, not Arab.

As for the Patriarchate of Antioch, it doesn't make much sense for it to become a center of Hellenistic Christianity. Antioch was particularly famous for lacking Hellenistic influences and being more in line with Rabbinic Jewish theology (in this sense it is similar to the Tewahido Church of Ethiopia, another Oriental church). In fact, in a world like this where the Oriental and Eastern schism is so much more important the Syriac Patriarch would probably win out over the Greek Patriarch, resulting in a Syria that falls in line with the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Basically, the Hellenic empire around Antioch should be split in two, one Oriental Orthodox and heavily Semitic with its capital at Antioch and one Eastern Orthodox with its capital at Constantinople, or if Constantinople has been layed to waste or some such Athens. Jerusalem could possibly fall under the Antiochian empire, but it could also likely fall under Arab-Oriental Egypt. I would go in favor of the former, but they both have good arguments for them.

Antioch is the political capital chosen by the first Emperor for its location at the center of his empire, which at the time was quite small (only the Levant, really). As the political center, it soon became the religious one as well, much like Constantinople became a religious center under the influence of the emperors (and wouldn't have even had a patriarch otherwise; Antioch had a patriarch even before being the imperial seat).

EDIT: EDIT: Oh, and as for India and Persia, a stronger Oriental Church would likely increase the strength of the somewhat related but eclessiastically seperate Assyrian Church of the East, which wiould in turn create a much stronger Christian presence in Mesopotamia and India, and possibly in Iran as well. In fact, I would definately see the possibility of the northern Mesopotamian Persian state being Assyrian Orthodox, and possibly also the other one and the one in the Persian Gulf.

The militancy of the Hellenes has made the local Persians (and the Roman Empire of Persia before them, now the Republic of Hormuz) very reluctant to allow Christian priests and whatnot into their lands. Christianity exists but is not common in central and southern Mesopotamia; Zoroastrianism predominates.

Israelite9191 · May 10, 2007

Cuivienen said:
Given that the PoD is in 180 CE

Missed that. Carry on then. I would still, however, have the Arabs convert, not create a new faith, which I see as much more likely.

The militancy of the Hellenes has made the local Persians (and the Roman Empire of Persia before them, now the Republic of Hormuz) very reluctant to allow Christian priests and whatnot into their lands. Christianity exists but is not common in central and southern Mesopotamia; Zoroastrianism predominates.

I would argue this point. Since there is a clear difference between Hellenistic Christianity and Oriental and Assyrian Christianity then Oriental and Assyrian Christianity should not be affected negatively by militant Hellenes. In particular, the Assyrian Church of the East and associated should actually be benefited by the division and localisation of Persia. One of your Persian princely states appears to be centered on Ctesphion, the patriarchal seat of the Assyrian Church of the East. Given the division between the patriarchal states each one would likely be searching for any way to strengthn their internal national identity and to gain influence abroad. Additionally, at this point in time prior to the Islamic invasions the Assyrian Church of the East was extremely vibrant and had a large following. It is only natural that the Catholicos-Patriarch would gain significant power in the Cetesphion-based Persian state.

Cuivienen · May 10, 2007

Israelite9191 said:
I would argue this point. Since there is a clear difference between Hellenistic Christianity and Oriental and Assyrian Christianity then Oriental and Assyrian Christianity should not be affected negatively by militant Hellenes. In particular, the Assyrian Church of the East and associated should actually be benefited by the division and localisation of Persia. One of your Persian princely states appears to be centered on Ctesphion, the patriarchal seat of the Assyrian Church of the East. Given the division between the patriarchal states each one would likely be searching for any way to strengthn their internal national identity and to gain influence abroad. Additionally, at this point in time prior to the Islamic invasions the Assyrian Church of the East was extremely vibrant and had a large following. It is only natural that the Catholicos-Patriarch would gain significant power in the Cetesphion-based Persian state.

The Persian states are independent, yes, but feel bound to one another as a common culture. For the most part, they overthrew Roman Persia together before falling into disorder. As they are all trying to claim Persia's legacy, it would not do for any of them to support a non-Persian religion. They are best described as squabbling, smaller versions of the Sassanids.

Also, the Persians are all more likely to get aid from the Hellenes as heathens (who can be converted) than as heretics (who must be destroyed). The other states surrounding them are not Christian (Latin Bactria [mostly Buddhist and Zoroastrian with a syncretic elite] and Hormuz [Pantheist elite, Zoroastrian commoners]).

Slightly updated map. I'm going to continue working on this when I'm home and able to use Photoshop.

Israelite9191 · May 10, 2007

Very well. I will concede. Now, just finish the map and start Moding it!

das · May 11, 2007

if the British isles were freed from the french menance by the valiant Arcadians, how on earth did the french manage to hold onto the colonies in OTL Georgia and Jamacia whilst loosing GB?

They annexed them with the small, but marginally-colonial Kingdom of Leon in the same war; meanwhile, the Arcadians were busy reconquering the Isles and then helping the Emperor fight the French on the Continent. After that the Arcadians were busy saving what they could of the British colonial empire. Basically these French colonies were judged way too insignificant, and the Arcadians remained content with the knowledge that they can always snatch them up easily if they want to. That's not quite unprecedented in OTL.

Azale · May 11, 2007

Hey, Josef says he wants to mod PoD. PEOPLE! SHOW HIM THE WAY!!!

das · May 12, 2007

Way shown (kinda).

North King · May 13, 2007

Dachspmg said:
All of these maps hurt my soul. You people depress me. Strategos is violating the strong tradition of Eurocentrism we have in this thread, with the obvious result that he will be struck dead by Saint Constantine XI the Ethnomartyr and Destroyer of Anyone With Whom I Disagree, and Cuiv just gave Moesia, Egypt, and Dalmatia away to the barbarians.

You will absolutely detest the current althist I'm working on.

North King · May 13, 2007

The Strategos said:
2) EC's: Is there somewhere I should have them or somewhere I should take them away (Ignoring Europe and ERE which were impacted the most by the PoD and thus will recieve my expert attention).

No, the ECs look to be fine. Europe is usually overpowered in terms of ECs, and in the ancient world, that should never be true.

Dachs · May 13, 2007

North King said:
You will absolutely detest the current althist I'm working on.

Eh. I can deal with it. I'm developing a resistance to the disease now...

The Strategos · May 14, 2007

@silver If you still want to mod my alt-hist (whose map is on the previous page) please let me know. If you don't want to, don't worry, it won't offend me but if you still do, I need to know what ruleset you want to use so I can start working on stats.

The Strategos · May 14, 2007

And now map and stats. Bring on criticisms.

Map Version 2.0
-Changed Crete ownership to Cyrene
-Made Yamoto Clan smaller (possible error on NKs map?), took away EC
-Added territory to Bazrangids in Arabia/East Africa, gave African EC
-Added EC to Baekje to represent trade with Japan and China
-Added barbarians to S. Korea to represent Japanese Wa Clan
-Shifted around ECs in S. India to better reflect country strengths
-made Pyongyang capital of Goguryeo (error on NKs map, Pyongyang became capital 427 CE)
-Shifted many European capitals around
-Shifted around European ECs to better reflect realities.

Spoiler :

Central America

Spoiler :

South America

Spoiler :

Europe

Spoiler :

Eastern Roman Empire

Spoiler :

Alternate History Thread III

Hero of the Soviet Union

Deity

Hero of the Soviet Union

Deity

Hero of the Soviet Union

You should be reading

Poet Jester

Beep Beep

Deity

You should be reading

Deity

You should be reading

Regeneration In Process

Deity

Regeneration In Process

blech

blech

Hero of the Soviet Union

Thanatos

Thanatos

Similar threads