Alternate Timeline Building Experiment, v1.0

[Daftpanzer]

OK, there are now 72 hours (AKA 3 days) to get your input in.

 

[tuxedohamm]

Colmassa Culture

Colmassa: Violently attacks any culture not native to S. America. They war against colonies, and even against natives who behave like Europeans. Is seen as a threat to their way of life.

Amasa: Continues to adopt culture as learned from nearby colonies in attempt to catch up and keep up with Europeans. Tries to regain some lost land, but isn't a high focus.

Matac: Continues to increase trade down Amazon.

 

[mythmonster2]

'pologize for not sendin' orders. This time I will, however.
Hom Empire: Seek to crush all remaining opposition in the mainland Africa, even going to drastic measures such as removal of free speech and press to stop sympathizers, while in actuality, they are speeding up their own destruction. The government is getting increasingly paranoid about possible rebellions, and the people are getting restless.
Manzuru Empire: Realizing it has an extremely advantageous position in Africa, it begins to form alliances with other African nations, all the while isolating the Zwhu people, while simultaneously strengthening trade bonds with India and East Asia. It grows increasingly wary of the Hom Empire to the south.
Dagon Kingdoms: Fight back against any colonial movements, while unifying as a result of this increased pressure.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Lord_Iggy: (Sarvonian culture)
Major influence:
The Furotoca of Curias: Begin to aggressively encourage democracy, fighting against nations who seek to prevent its inevitable rise.
Keyzad of Nadzavosk-Savisia: Inspiration from Curias and Zevon, and frustration at the longstanding Keyzad will lead to widespread unrest, culminating in a democratic revolution sweeping the country, with the goal of creating the Sarvonian Republic.
Keyzad of Urgury: Keep alliances with the other nearby Sarvonians against the Amestrians.

Lesser influence:
Holy Yansalan Kingdom: Continue to wither away.
Garakal Katanates: Resentment will be forming towards the dominance of the Varakan Empire. Keep on trading.
Holy Tezan Empire: Focus heavily on African colonization, and our dominance of that continent.
Marzhung Empire: Begin to question the government, as a wave of anti-authoritarianism expands outwards from the Furotoca of Curias.
Thuratica of Zevon: Hold our own and focus on industrial development.
Vonoth Kingdoms: Hire advisors from outside to help and modernize the nation, to hold off nearby rivals. Try to prevent the Poneb from expanding further east.
Sezat Kingdom: Grow in power and development- at a point where Poneb authority begins to grow overbearing, and a rebellion is possible, rise up against our masters!

 

[Daftpanzer]

Thanks!

What about Sezat?

My mistake, you should still have some influence there, if you want.

 

[Masada]

Marzhung Empire

Use the wave of anti-authoritarianism to ram through reforms and the threat of a Keyzad of Nadzavosk-Savisia style uprising to spur reform efforts:
Reform the state along Nadzavosk-Savisia (just less extremely) lines complete with a constitution, and continue to adopt institutions of other nations that work.
Free up the market and modernize business practice by having children educated and make friends in more advanced nations [friends in later years amongst the elites pay dividends].
Get drawn into the Varakan economic orbit, allow them to utilize the resources of Marzhung, so they build nice things like railways and spur the growth of industry and cities.
Encourage disaffected citizens of Varakan and her vassals to settle in the Commonwealth of All Marzhung seeking religious/political/ or economc freedom and bring useful skills.

Kyzad of Nadzavosk-Savisia
Make friends with the Marzhung imitators, try and foster some common purpose and resolve, use trade, business, shared "culture" and the ties between the elites to ensure peace.

 

[Luckymoose]

Daft can you wait until tomorrow for me to send my orders? I am on a celebration day right now.

 

[Nick014]

I sense a note of bitterness

Call me biased if you want, I'm afraid I just don't see a way around the effects of their relative isolation throughout history, and it will be harder for them to match the eurasian powers. It seems that whatever happens, eurasians have more influences to draw from and more inspiration/incentives to change things. That said, I do imagine the Panto as being more advanced in many ways than the Argine Empire for example.

Maybe just a tad

I dunno, the whole development of the Americas is so radically different from the OTL that I guess I thought it would be less of a "Europe crushes and subjugates" theme and they would be on a more even footing (or at least closer to one).

 

[qoou]

Maybe just a tad

I dunno, the whole development of the Americas is so radically different from the OTL that I guess I thought it would be less of a "Europe crushes and subjugates" theme and they would be on a more even footing (or at least closer to one).

*cough*diseases will still kill ~90-95% of your population no matter what*cough*

 

[Lord_Iggy]

The disease period has already passed.

 

[Daftpanzer]

Daft can you wait until tomorrow for me to send my orders? I am on a celebration day right now.

Sure thing, there are still 24 hours to go out of that 72. You can just tell me your main priorities or whatever...

I dunno, the whole development of the Americas is so radically different from the OTL that I guess I thought it would be less of a "Europe crushes and subjugates" theme and they would be on a more even footing (or at least closer to one).

Although, I can't think of any important native state that has been conquered by outsiders yet, so I think they are doing quite well

 

[Terrance888]

Charles Li: (Hsin-Yuan culture)
Major influence: Yanshi Kingdom
Lesser influence: Zhuko Allliance, Sarih Katanates

YanShi Republic Modernize. Great universities and acadamies will form for military and science. 'Labs' are forming. With great national pride they expanded north and south. Forming the Huvi'ran Confederacy for governing purposes (less land and senators.)

Important Inventions I have to Share
A Type of Machine Gun
Large Replaceable Parts Factory
Automobiles
A type of cartridged shell
The Kamikaze A ship similar to the Dreadnought OTL that sparked a Naval Cold war.

They are sorta like america except with no frontier. New Ideas are accepted and tested. Yanshi is still in boom Militaraly, Economically, Scientifically and Nationality.

Zhuko Becomes Huvi'ran Confederacy. A ally to Yanshi and often the most benefited to industrial technologies due to its area. Modernized.

Sharih Nationalic Pride slowly concentraded the Kantanates into a single National Katanate of Sarih.

 

[Luckymoose]

Varaka: Begin searching our lands for resources and see what new and exciting things we find. Hold our borders on all sides and if an opening occurs push deeper into Yansala. Attempt to dominate the entire Arabian peninsula and continue modernizing.

 

[qoou]

The disease period has already passed.

I know, but:
The Americas had ~70 million inhabitants when Columbus arrived from what I remember. Let's say that in this alt-timeline that number was larger: ~100 million (also, daft forgot about terra preta until after the Columbian exchange, so South America's population wasn't as large as in OTL, but w/e). 90-95% mortality rate means that ~5-10 million survived. Let's say that they had a fast natural growth rate (not accounting for other factors yet): 100% every 100 years. That means they'd have ~30-45 million. However, that's not accounting for my "kill those damn natives already" attitude. Almost-constant warfare, imo, would... halve the growth rate maybe, which would bring the population to ~15-20 million. By those guess-timations, the Panto would have ~5 million people right now.

 

[Nick014]

I know, but:
The Americas had ~70 million inhabitants when Columbus arrived from what I remember. Let's say that in this alt-timeline that number was larger: ~100 million (also, daft forgot about terra preta until after the Columbian exchange, so South America's population wasn't as large as in OTL, but w/e). 90-95% mortality rate means that ~5-10 million survived. Let's say that they had a fast natural growth rate (not accounting for other factors yet): 100% every 100 years. That means they'd have ~30-45 million. However, that's not accounting for my "kill those damn natives already" attitude. Almost-constant warfare, imo, would... halve the growth rate maybe, which would bring the population to ~15-20 million. By those guess-timations, the Panto would have ~5 million people right now.

If I wanted a verbatim repeat of the OTL I'd go read one of my old history books. The diseases mentioned in previous updates weren't necessarily as severe, and the natives have already more or less recovered at this point (as far as I understand it).

As a sort of a side note, it's kind of disconcerting to me that you seem hell-bent on completely destroying my nation from more than just a role-playing perspective. No one likes god-moders who use commands like "I just annexed you" or "The diseases killed off all your people". This isn't a competitive game, you don't need to try so hard to make your case.

 

[Symphony D.]

If I wanted a verbatim repeat of the OTL I'd go read one of my old history books.

Intrude: This is not a cogent argument, and it's the second time I've seen it used. Some things happen the same way no matter what other changes are made because of the iron law of statistics. Disease is one of them.

Unless you make the Americas super-abundant in food resources (they haven't been) then Eurasia will vastly overpower them in food production, thus in population, and thus in diseases, and on contact the effects described by qoou will occur. The question is how many diseases go back the other way. That's not a "verbatim repeat" of history, since all the geopolitical actors are different--it's a simple fact that will happen. That it didn't is a Moderator's choice... but it's one clearly done for situational interest, not out of realism. It can be accepted as the former, but should not be defended using the latter.

While I agree with qoou, it's Daftpanzer's call, and if somebody doesn't like it, too bad.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I would keep in mind that contact in this NES happened quite slowly, and that North America was particularly well-developed and populous, thus significantly, though by no means completely, cushioning the blow of disease.

 

[Symphony D.]

I would keep in mind that contact in this NES happened quite slowly, and that North America was particularly well-developed and populous, thus significantly, though by no means completely, cushioning the blow of disease.

Intrude: Um, no--that worsens it significantly. I'm going to hazard a guess and say you know nothing at all about how diseases spread.

Having more people means more vectors for spread of the disease, even if contact is less frequent. It will spread faster, they will have just as little (read: no) immunity, and far more of them will die, more quickly (having bigger and more interconnected populations). All the resistance they gain to diseases is from local sources, not Eurasian ones--given a lot of human diseases originate with our livestock, even a greater local resistance will not help them in the slightest, because their livestock will be different. Biological warfare is a zero-sum game. Think of it like you would MAD. Two populations will exchange diseases, crippling one another. The bigger one with greater genetic variation will win. Eurasia beats America on that every single time.

Furthermore, if contact is sporadic, and one-way, a high population density in the Americas functions like a slow version of biological "shock and awe"--waves of disease rippling across the continent with little chance of blowback. Again, you want to do it for situational interest, fine. Just don't go defending it as if it has some basis in reality, because it doesn't.

 

[Disenfrancised]

A greater Amerindian population will do nothing to protect them from Eurasian diseases, all it will do is mean they'll have some new diseases that the Eurasians lack. So everyone dies, not just the Americans (and the Eurasians will probably still have the lethality edge due to their larger pop).

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Intrude: Um, no--that worsens it significantly. I'm going to hazard a guess and say you know nothing at all about how diseases spread.

Having more people means more vectors for spread of the disease, even if contact is less frequent. It will spread faster, they will have just as little (read: no) immunity, and far more of them will die, more quickly (having bigger and more interconnected populations). All the resistance they gain to diseases is from local sources, not Eurasian ones--given a lot of human diseases originate with our livestock, even a greater local resistance will not help them in the slightest, because their livestock will be different. Biological warfare is a zero-sum game. Think of it like you would MAD. Two populations will exchange diseases, crippling one another. The bigger one with greater genetic variation will win. Eurasia beats America on that every single time.

Furthermore, if contact is sporadic, and one-way, a high population density in the Americas functions like a slow version of biological "shock and awe"--waves of disease rippling across the continent with little chance of blowback. Again, you want to do it for situational interest, fine. Just don't go defending it as if it has some basis in reality, because it doesn't.

I'm very aware that larger, more cramped populations make disease epidemics much more severe- however, living in urbanized situations will have increased the number of diseases a group is exposed to. Livestock in the Americas is certainly different than Old-World livestock, but surely it would also confer some immunological improvement. In combination with a long time between contact and colonization, I would expect that Native American civilization would come out much better than it did in our timeline.

If what I have just expanded upon is wrong, please explain to me exactly where my reasoning or understanding is wrong- I would like to learn.