Alternates to Judaism - MODCOMP

[fearuin]

I've been looking briefly the code from RFC, and some other gnereic code, and some ideas have popped around my mind. I still don't know if it's possible, but I'll tell you about them, so before I start working on them, we can have a more or less defined idea about them.

1st one: succesive religions. This is the most difficult, but I'm figuring more or less how to handle. The idea is: certain religions (Judaism) are succeded by other ones (Christianity). It would be possible to make the slot of Judaism to be used, by Christianity, and later on, for Catholicism. The slot for Christianity can be used for Solar polytheism, succeded by Zoroastrism, succeded by Mithraism, and finally, for Orthodoxy this one, just for geographical reasons). "Obsolete" religions may stay, but they won't be chosen as SR by any civilization. When a certain tech is discovered, the succesion is done, and there will be a percentage of chance for the city to convert to the new religion, and a pertage of losing it in the future. That way, we will have a dinamic "rise and fall" of religions, which, I think, it will fit with our mod wonderfully!

Second one: Conciliums. Using the code from Congresses, it should be possible to create a routine event, where civs from a certain religions will choose a "universal civic" much like in UN resoloutions, or declare a holy war against a certain civ. I need ideas fro more posible resolutions.

 

[kairob]

Cross post - mine now looks silly

 

[Yakk]

We need religions that eat each other and are contingent on each other.

Judaeism could be a slowly-spreading religion with no missionaries. The first civilization to learn theology with a judaeism city gets the christian holy city.

Include animism. Animism is a religion that spreads fast to cities without other religions. It spreads slowly to cities with an animist state religion and other religions in it.

If a non-animist religion is in a city with an animist religion, there is a 10% chance that animism will be deleted, and a 10% chance that the other religion will be deleted. This never deletes holy cities.

There is no holy city for animism. Every city in the world starts out with an animist religion. Animism has no temples and monestaries, but you can build an animist shrine: the animist shrine produces 1 culture per turn, and survives even if the city no longer has animism.

Viola -- a minor religion.

 

[fearuin]

Include animism. Animism is a religion that spreads fast to cities without other religions. It spreads slowly to cities with an animist state religion and other religions in it.

If a non-animist religion is in a city with an animist religion, there is a 10% chance that animism will be deleted, and a 10% chance that the other religion will be deleted. This never deletes holy cities.

There is no holy city for animism. Every city in the world starts out with an animist religion. Animism has no temples and monestaries, but you can build an animist shrine: the animist shrine produces 1 culture per turn, and survives even if the city no longer has animism.

Viola -- a minor religion.

Hmm... I see your proposal interesting, but too complicated. For the +1 , we have obelisks. And I just don't know how to make a religion appear and spread without holy city or missionaries. I think animism is irrelevant, it will get obsolete quite early, and will disturb the growing of other religions. The eixistance of animism is represented by the absence of any other religion. That's why you are pagan at the beggining. By adding solar polytheism, I add the possibility of appearing an early religion that had a huge impact on mankind. It will get obsolete early on certain areas (Europe), but not so early in other (America).

More about conciliums: you will need the holy shrine built, at least three civs converted to that religion, and all must have Theology. Should I add a certain precentage of spreading? This will negate the possibility of human players forcing conciliums to happen by sending two happy missionaries to America early on. On conciliums, the civ owning the holy city will choose the resolution to pass. The civs will vote with a prorrated number of votes corresponding to their percentage of converted population (thus, the holy city owner can be in minority). After passing the resolution, if accepted, the civs voting against the resolution will have as result being excommunicated. Excommunication will be reflected as losing your actual SR. You will have to wait 5 turns (as usual) to convert again to the former civ. Excommunication of a civ may be a resolution to pass, also. This is more or less how it will work.

 

[kairob]

solar polythiesm is pagan though

 

[Phallus]

Religions in Civ represent uniform, organised belief systems. Animism is just a broad term to describe any belief systems that revolve around spirits.

1st one: succesive religions. This is the most difficult, but I'm figuring more or less how to handle. The idea is: certain religions (Judaism) are succeded by other ones (Christianity). It would be possible to make the slot of Judaism to be used, by Christianity, and later on, for Catholicism. The slot for Christianity can be used for Solar polytheism, succeded by Zoroastrism, succeded by Mithraism, and finally, for Orthodoxy this one, just for geographical reasons). "Obsolete" religions may stay, but they won't be chosen as SR by any civilization. When a certain tech is discovered, the succesion is done, and there will be a percentage of chance for the city to convert to the new religion, and a pertage of losing it in the future. That way, we will have a dinamic "rise and fall" of religions, which, I think, it will fit with our mod wonderfully!

Second one: Conciliums. Using the code from Congresses, it should be possible to create a routine event, where civs from a certain religions will choose a "universal civic" much like in UN resoloutions, or declare a holy war against a certain civ. I need ideas fro more posible resolutions.

These ideas sound very promising. Does anyone have an idea on how feasible they'd be?

 

[Yakk]

The goal is to slow down the early spread of religions.

The middle east will have states whose state religion is Animism. This will slow down the spread of Indian religions into that area.

It is a strictly worse religion than the others, other than the ability to build shrines early on. It fights back some of the other early religions if it is your state religion, but it is hopeless against islam and christianity (reflecting the fact that those two religions wiped out the remainder of animism in the world).

Possibly one would need to hit polytheism to get a local minor Animist religion: the first one gets Hinduism, the rest get an Animist minor religion.

 

[fearuin]

It fights back some of the other early religions if it is your state religion, but it is hopeless against islam and christianity (reflecting the fact that those two religions wiped out the remainder of animism in the world).

To make this, we have Zoroastrism. (Yes, I'm defending Zoroastrism! Who will expect it? ). In fact, animism it is not a religion for itself, just a name to a cathegory of cults with very different origin, and the only thing in common to worshipping spirits. For this, do you think that Japanese Shinto traditions, Mesoamerican shamanism, and African cults can enter in the same sack? And leaving out the TRUE religion that existed on the area? I feel not. It's just my opinion, though.

 

[fearuin]

Looks like Vanilla version 1.95 is scrapped. I'll start with the Modcomp in Warlords. However, until now, it crashes to desktop -don't know why. I'll upload it after giving it a review, if I can't find the problem, so you can take a look. Maybe I'm forgetting something, and it's in front of my nose.

 

[kairob]

have ya checked for spelling mistakes? everytime I change anything I have to look through it about three times changing spellings before it works, the drawbacks of dyslexia hey

 

[fearuin]

It was more shameful. I forgot to convert the dds files from the bmp I've been using to modify them... . Now I keep revising the files, and I'm adding some new artwork I find. Everything should be working in little time.
As a note, the first version I will release will require the "Decipher me or I'll devour you MODCOMP", because I downloaded and installed it before I've started modding. I will add a second version for the standard RFCW a few days later. However, I strongly recommend that modcomp, the sphinx is really cute!

 

[kairob]

yeah, I like the picture of the cat the best

 

[Edungeon]

It was more shameful. I forgot to convert the dds files from the bmp I've been using to modify them... . Now I keep revising the files, and I'm adding some new artwork I find. Everything should be working in little time.
As a note, the first version I will release will require the "Decipher me or I'll devour you MODCOMP", because I downloaded and installed it before I've started modding. I will add a second version for the standard RFCW a few days later. However, I strongly recommend that modcomp, the sphinx is really cute!

Yeah, make the Sphinx mandatory! Let's spreed it so Rhye need to put it in the Oficial RFC Version with Zoroastrianism!


PS: yeah... I like dreams ;_;

 

[fearuin]

Sadly, I just can't find what going wrong. The game crashes when loading the engine, so it's not related to the XML or Python. What could it be? I don't know... . Here you have the link to download it, so you can take a look and maybe you can find what I'm forgetting, misunderstanding or blowing up. Remeber that you need the Sphinx mod.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/103080/Zoroastrism.rar

I guess I will start with the other option: the Orthodoxy. That will help me in one way: as long as I won't need new graphics, it will help me to find if the graphics I used for Zoroastrism were the corrupt issue.

 

[Sweeny]

Uhm long-time lurker, first-time poster...

I don't know if this has ever been resolved one way or the other... It does seem peculiar to have a world history without Judaism, considering haw many critic events in human history have been related to it, from times of antiquity to the present day...

I understand the argument about Judaism not being preached by missionaries... Although, can't that also be said about the Hindus? Still, if historical accuracy is the aim of the game, Judaism needs a role...

The simplest (and potentially interesting scenario) would be for the sudden emergence of a Jewish state (i.e. Israel) sometime in the Modern Age. This state could emerge from occupied land in its historical location. Give it some radical attributes; perhaps never grows beyond two cities, perhaps automatic defense pacts with certain nations and automatic war with the civilization from which it sprang. Military is produced faster, given experience points, etc.

As for the religion, it can't be spread by missionaries, although it can with city conquest. In some ways, it wouldn't be a potent religion in and of itself except as a new variable for religious diplomacy. But that alone might prove interesting, and at least it would resemble history. The Israeli Civ's unique powers can only be enabled with Judaism and Organized Religion or Theology in place, perhaps?

The benefits of this is that it would approximate real-life. It would throw a whole new monkey wrench into world diplomacy.

One problem with this is that it doesn't address Judaism's historic role since antiquity... I haven't thought it that far through...

 

[Panopticon]

I disagree with Sweeny.

www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

If we "need" Judaism simply for its modern-age manifestation, then we "need" Asian tribal sects, African tribal sects and religions, Sikhs, North Korean Communists and Swedenborgians. Alternatively, if the problem is that Christianity without Judaism makes no sense, then I suppose Christianity without Celtic mythology, or Judaism without Zoroastrianism, makes no sense. The only remaining criteria are either that Judaism exists in the core game or that Judaism is seen as more important in the Eurocentric world view than those other religions, which I would see as being weak. If we are seeking to represent historical accuracy, then the Catholic-Protestant schism was as important to diplomacy as anything related to Judaism.

 

[lumpthing]

The question is not: Is Judaism historically important enough to be worthy of being one of the seven represented religions? (In my opinion the answer would be yes, but I'm uninterested in the question)

The question is: Would an alternative religion contribute more to RFC than Judaism?

The answer IMO is yes. Judaism contributes lots of irritating historically unflavoursome antics like Jewish Egyptian and Roman empires. An alternative religion like Protestantism or Zoroastrianism would simulate important historical cultural differences which genuinely affected political relations between RFC civs.

 

[Ekolite]

I think that Judaism should be replaced with Zoroastrianism and Taoism be replaced with Protestantism. I tend to find Taoism a bit redundant in a relatively small region which already has Confucianism and Budhism to itself. Obviously the Chinese UHV would need to be changed. Yes, it could potentially lead to better relations between China and Japan if Japan doesn't get Budhism, but surely livening things up in Europe, in a hugely Eurocentric mod, more then makes up for this small matter.

 

[Krzowwh]

Because the mod is Eurocentric means we need to make it even more Eurocentric?

 

[Ekolite]

Well yes. It is eurocentric because there are so many civs in Europe comapared to, say africa or asia. There are more civs in the region, so it is presumably played most often, so it is more important in game play terms. So that means that making the region more interesting by adding a new religion there would be a good thing, even if it did mean the removal of an essentially redundant religion from a less important area of the map.