Alternative Map for DOC

[TJDowling]

I mean... It's tight so you can maybe put the Rideau Canal between what would be Kingston and TO? But again, that would be inaccurate so doesn't solve the problem.

 

[TJDowling]

I think the east African coast east of the rift valley and south of Somalia should be generally grasslands, and not plains.

I also would like to start talking about resources that appear throughout the game, as the current map is sorely lacking in representing many of the biggest agricultural changes (most non-agricultural resources are already represented from the start) that have happened throughout history:

In east Africa spices in Zanzibar in the Islamic era, and tea in Kenya in the late colonial era;
Corn in South Africa and DRC in the late colonial era and wine in South Africa by 1700;
More wheat and cattle in Australia, and potentially cotton, pearls in Broome, in the late colonial era;
Wheat in Chile;
Banana in Mexico;
Tea in Iran on the Caspian Sea and in Eastern Turkey around 1850-1900.

I feel like there could be a forum for this as I'm sure many people have as many suggestions as I do.

Totally agree with your point on agricultural resources and the current map. Really only Northeast Asia, Western Europe, America/Canada and Colombia/Brazil/Argentina get any benefit of post-colonial agricultural changes but the agricultural landscape of Africa and South America and even South/Southeast Asia changed dramatically as well. Africa is the worst represented for sure and with the potential for more and more post-colonial African civs moving forward I think it's time to correct that.

 

[merijn_v1]

The only major export product from the Swahili Coast was palm oil. I think a Banana (or sugar) resources is best to represent that. So I suggest adding one of these in that area. (I think the tile 1N of the silver is good)

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Wait, olives? Don't you think we have enough resources already? What's next, salt? Saltpeter? Apples?

- Looking at Finland (but this would also help Canada and some other regions), it looks a bit weird with the huge lakes there. Finland (and Canada) has thousands and thousands of very small lakes - maybe there could be a new terrain feature representing this, so the tiles can remain plains or grasslands and be dotted with some lakes on top giving freshwater and some other benefits?

Why not just re-purpose Oases for that?

 

[merijn_v1]

Wait, olives? Don't you think we have enough resources already? What's next, salt? Saltpeter? Apples?

Cocoa and potatoes.

 

[LikeNothing]

Wait, olives? Don't you think we have enough resources already? What's next, salt? Saltpeter? Apples?

With the new Limited Resource Effects feature, greater variety of Resources becomes less necessary.

With Unlimited Resource Effects, each new type of Resource (e.g. Corn for an Old World civ) is a definitive change for your Civ, whereas each new instance of an existing type of Resource (e.g. Wheat for an Old World civ) is useful only in Trade. With Limited Resource Effects, each new instance of an existing type of Resource is a definitive change that helps (improving Health or Happiness) one of your Cities (usually the one that needs help the most, and hence often as good as a new type of Resource, if not better).

While there is still a difference between a new type of Resource (e.g. adding Olives) and more instances of an old wine (e.g. Wine), the difference has diminished.

Cocoa and potatoes.

These could have significant gameplay improvements because they enrich the game's simulation of colonialism and the Colombian Exchange.

While I am more optimistic that Cocoa separated from Coffee can enhance realism and strategic variety, I am less certain that Potatoes are not mostly redundant given the existing geographic distribution of Corn and Limited Resource Effects.

With all that said, I think more Resource types does not burden the game's performance nearly as much as more Civs, so more Resources can always be added purely for flavor, even at the absence of strategic impact.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

With all that said, I think more Resource types does not burden the game's performance nearly as much as more Civs, so more Resources can always be added purely for flavor, even at the absence of strategic impact.

But they take away scarce real estate for supposedly universal improvements like Cottages and Workshops!

 

[Leoreth]

Quoting some of your posts so I can link to mine for further to do.

Some thoughts:
- Maybe you can add an extra row North of the Nile delta to give more space to Egypt (similar to Barbarian X's proposal)
- For Vietnam, the peak in the south feels awkward - the region is hilly, but the main transportation routes are along the coast and the peak disrupts that. I don't think the region needs mountains, hills would fit better, but if that peak must be there, then it might be better to place it 1 tile W.
- Not sure if these have flood plains, but consider adding them for the Mekong and Red River deltas, the central range of the Dnieper, the mouth of the Parana and the Yellow River (although not sure if the delta or the central part) - all of these are huge grain producing regions
- Looking at Finland (but this would also help Canada and some other regions), it looks a bit weird with the huge lakes there. Finland (and Canada) has thousands and thousands of very small lakes - maybe there could be a new terrain feature representing this, so the tiles can remain plains or grasslands and be dotted with some lakes on top giving freshwater and some other benefits?

Really excited about how the whole map is shaping up

I have also thought about such a lake feature, it could work similar to oases without the significant food and commerce benefits. Does anyone know a mod that has appropriate art?

What is interesting about the Nile is that its "loop" in Sudan is much more pronounced even in the old map. I will try the proposal with the enlarged delta but not sure if that addresses all the problems.

I think most of my suggestions about Canada from earlier were integrated, but a couple of small things I did notice:

Have you considered moving the bend/end of the Ottawa River 1E (more geographically accurate) or are you intentionally keeping it there so that Toronto gets a river (which wouldn't be terribly accurate, but would buff the city)?

Also, have you considered adding in marshes to represent the Hudson Bay Lowlands?

Will look into the river, but the marshes definitely sound like a good idea.

I concur, 2 or 3 marsh tiles west of James Bay would be appropriate and correctly make the region very unproductive. Also, it seems the corn is on the most accurate spot for Toronto—it might do good to move it east, also allowing Montreal to reach it.

Are you intending to make the resource distribution as sparse as it is (compared to the current smaller map)?

Yes. As I understand Bautos's comments the number of resources on the map has been mostly kept the same while overall space was increased. Some exceptions exist, for example China received corresponding resources for its enlargement, which is appropriate. I don't think further resources should or need to be added to the current map.

It is more accurate, but I think it would be better to give Montreal more room given that Quebec is pretty close from the east, and it also does give room to settle Ottawa if you really want to have all four main cities there represented.

Wait, olives? Don't you think we have enough resources already? What's next, salt? Saltpeter? Apples?

I don't, and some of these are good ideas.

Part of the reason for changing the rules to limited resource effects (as detailed in their explanatory post) was to allow greater resource variety on the map.

Why not just re-purpose Oases for that?

They are too powerful on grassland.

With the new Limited Resource Effects feature, greater variety of Resources becomes less necessary.

With Unlimited Resource Effects, each new type of Resource (e.g. Corn for an Old World civ) is a definitive change for your Civ, whereas each new instance of an existing type of Resource (e.g. Wheat for an Old World civ) is useful only in Trade. With Limited Resource Effects, each new instance of an existing type of Resource is a definitive change that helps (improving Health or Happiness) one of your Cities (usually the one that needs help the most, and hence often as good as a new type of Resource, if not better).

While there is still a difference between a new type of Resource (e.g. adding Olives) and more instances of an old wine (e.g. Wine), the difference has diminished.

Correct, that is a good analysis of the implications of the new rules for more resources in the new map.

These could have significant gameplay improvements because they enrich the game's simulation of colonialism and the Colombian Exchange.

While I am more optimistic that Cocoa separated from Coffee can enhance realism and strategic variety, I am less certain that Potatoes are not mostly redundant given the existing geographic distribution of Corn and Limited Resource Effects.

With all that said, I think more Resource types does not burden the game's performance nearly as much as more Civs, so more Resources can always be added purely for flavor, even at the absence of strategic impact.

The performance implications are completely negligible, the only thing to worry about is map real estate and overall happiness/health. The latter is sufficiently addressed by the new rules. For the former, as previously mentioned there is enough space available. And in most cases, new resources have replaced existing ones or provide food to new areas in a more realistic way. Potatoes usually have replaced Corn in South America and Europe after the Columbian exchange, Cocoa replaces other plantation resources in Mesoamerica, and Olives are mostly used to provide more food to Mediterranean locations that need it.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

They are too powerful on grassland.

Make them weaker and just put a camel on each desert oasis, that should do the trick.

 

[Leoreth]

No.

 

[merijn_v1]

I have also thought about such a lake feature, it could work similar to oases without the significant food and commerce benefits. Does anyone know a mod that has appropriate art?

I don't know of any mod, but I tried something myself and made this. It is the oasis feature but without the palm trees and the sandy edge. I can easily make multiple varieties with different amounts of lakes, different placement configurations and different lake sizes. I don't think I can make the lakes themselves other shapes than a circle, but maybe overlapping allows me to make some variations in that too.

Spoiler :

 

[DC123456789]

- Looking at Finland (but this would also help Canada and some other regions), it looks a bit weird with the huge lakes there. Finland (and Canada) has thousands and thousands of very small lakes - maybe there could be a new terrain feature representing this, so the tiles can remain plains or grasslands and be dotted with some lakes on top giving freshwater and some other benefits?

I'm not familiar with Finland but most of the parts of Canada with a lot of lakes are actually mostly to completely uninhabited, utterly unproductive land (in game terms, it's currently represented by tundra), so I don't think it should give any sort of tile bonus at all.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know of any mod, but I tried something myself and made this. It is the oasis feature but without the palm trees and the sandy edge. I can easily make multiple varieties with different amounts of lakes, different placement configurations and different lake sizes. I don't think I can make the lakes themselves other shapes than a circle, but maybe overlapping allows me to make some variations in that too.

Spoiler :

That looks very artificial.

I'm not familiar with Finland but most of the parts of Canada with a lot of lakes are actually mostly to completely uninhabited, utterly unproductive land (in game terms, it's currently represented by tundra), so I don't think it should give any sort of tile bonus at all.

Same with Finland, maybe marshes actually are the better way to represent this.

 

[ozqar]

I think potatoes are a great addition to the game, although they shouldn't replace every corn resource in South America - both are very common, and they could represent cassava too. Olives and cocoa would be really nice additions too.

I would nominate soybeans and oil palm as food resources that can become important as of the 1900s. By the way, oil palm is from Western Africa (the Swahili coast used coconut palm trees, although they could be considered the same for the game). In the 20th Century oil palm should spread to Indonesia, the Congo basin, the Amazon, and a bit more of Southeast Asia. Soybeans are native to China, and again, they should only become spread out in the 1900s, first to the US / Canada and a bit later to Argentina and Brazil.

I'm not familiar with Finland but most of the parts of Canada with a lot of lakes are actually mostly to completely uninhabited, utterly unproductive land (in game terms, it's currently represented by tundra), so I don't think it should give any sort of tile bonus at all.

About this, agreed about Canada - but then that means the base tile should be tundra and the lakes should be there nevertheless, no? In Finland these areas are covered by forested grasslands and are inhabited, though.

 

[Leoreth]

They did not replace every instance but most. Potatoes also exist in the Brazilian inlands where I believe cassava is (has been?) heavily cultivated, so they already represent those.

Finland is also very thinly populated in its inland, so I would not call these areas productive.

 

[Leoreth]

I think the east African coast east of the rift valley and south of Somalia should be generally grasslands, and not plains.

I also would like to start talking about resources that appear throughout the game, as the current map is sorely lacking in representing many of the biggest agricultural changes (most non-agricultural resources are already represented from the start) that have happened throughout history:

In east Africa spices in Zanzibar in the Islamic era, and tea in Kenya in the late colonial era;
Corn in South Africa and DRC in the late colonial era and wine in South Africa by 1700;
More wheat and cattle in Australia, and potentially cotton, pearls in Broome, in the late colonial era;
Wheat in Chile;
Banana in Mexico;
Tea in Iran on the Caspian Sea and in Eastern Turkey around 1850-1900.

I feel like there could be a forum for this as I'm sure many people have as many suggestions as I do.

Totally agree with your point on agricultural resources and the current map. Really only Northeast Asia, Western Europe, America/Canada and Colombia/Brazil/Argentina get any benefit of post-colonial agricultural changes but the agricultural landscape of Africa and South America and even South/Southeast Asia changed dramatically as well. Africa is the worst represented for sure and with the potential for more and more post-colonial African civs moving forward I think it's time to correct that.

I somehow missed this part of the discussion. The map I am working on is the 3000 BC scenario, so later resource changes including the Columbian exchange is currently not addressed. I would like to have a 3000 BC map working first, because it can serve as a starting point for CNM and settler/stability map discussions, but a more detailed resource spread over time is also important to me. I am even considering introducing more scripted resource spawns. For example, as previously discussed Chinese terrain in the south could be worse early in the game to encourage development along the Yellow River, same for northern Europe before the Middle Ages. I think the easiest way to do so is to create another baseline map with all resources that could ever spawn, with the spawn date as tile marker, and then work our way backwards into the Resources.py script. I also intend to rewrite that part of Python code to make multiple scenarios easier to handle.

 

[ozqar]

Hey

So I gave some love to my homeland. Here are my suggestions:

Spoiler :

Land/coast shape
- Added two tiles in the Southern Pacific (Oaxaca and Michoacan regions)
- Removed one tile from Southwestern Caribbean (southern Quintana Too)

Relief
- In the Baja peninsula, changed Los Cabos from Mountain into plains hill, and made the entire peninsula hills except for the one tile that protrudes west (el Vizcaíno)
- Removed one mountain from Chiapas/Guatemala (the coast is a fertile plains region)
- moved the Sierra Madre Occidental one tile West, but left an uninterrupted coastal corridor
- In the Center-South, changed the peaks so they only appear on the Pacific coast, and always allowing a Coastal corridor
- Changed the Pacific coast to plains (north of the Lerma river) and hills (south of it, all the way to El Salvador), except for one tile in the Tehuantepec isthmus which remains flat
- Changed all tiles on the Gulf coast to plains
- Changed all the interior tiles to hills (representing the Mexican plateau and the Sierra Madre Oriental) in the center-south - the northernmost tiles remain flats (the Chihuahan desert)

Rivers
- Added the Papaloapan river (Veracruz)
- shortened the Yaqui river (Sonora)

Grassland / prairies / deserts
- Made the whole pacific coast grasslands, except in Sonora and two tiles in Oaxaca that are plains
- Made all of Central America grasslands
- Made all the Gulf Coast grasslands
- Changed most of the northern interior tiles to desert (the Chihuahuan desert), except immediately west of the Sierra Madre Occidental (prairies hills) and the forested hill corridor two tiles west of the Gulf (which represents the Sierra Madre Oriental)

Forests
- Added forests through most of the Pacific coast (all except Oaxaca), and on a couple of interior hill tiles next to the Sierra Madre Occidental, also over most hills representing the Sierra Madre Oriental, added some rainforests in Central America
- Left some clear areas in the Valley of Mexico region and along the Gulf coast - although these areas were originally very forested, so forests could be added there too

Resources
Resources and economic activities differ in many ways between prehispanic and colonial-modern times, so I have organized my suggestions organized by these two periods.

Prehispanic Mexico:
- Corn: Added one instance in Chiapas/Guatemala for the Mayas (but also because modern Guatemala, which is super densely populated). I added one instance in Puebla, which is the region where it was originally domesticated. I also moved the corn in Tabasco northeast, to encourage settling Merida / Chichen Itza. Moved one instance of corn in the Gulf coast to the south to make room for sugar (see below). There was virtually no agriculture in the north of Mexico before the Spanish conquest, so there should be no corn resources including and north of the Y: 45 row (ie, remove three corns, two from the Rio Grande, and one from the Texas coast).
- Dyes and Spices: The two two spices in the Rio Grande shouldn’t be there at all for the same reason as above. Instead, I moved them to the south, one close to Mexico City, another one in the West. I don’t have a strong opinion on where exactly to place these, so long as it’s in the mesoamerican areas (ie, the Aztec and Mayan core and historical areas).
- Cotton: Cotton, or rather, the one species that accounts 90% of current global production, is originally from Mexico. I’ve added one instance in Veracruz, the area where it’s thought to come from (but see more about cotton in the section below about colonial/modern mexico).
- Deer: Moved the deer currently in Nayarit north to Sonora, this is thinking of the sacred role of deer in the Yaqui and other Sonoran nations. Changed the deer in Oaxaca to Incense (see below).
- Incense: Copal (a type of incense) was widely used in religious ceremonies throughout mesoamerica. I changed the deer resource in Oaxaca to Copal as that area has many different types of it and there it’s accessible to both Mayas and Aztecs.
- Stone: Haven’t changed the stone. It depends on gameplay. It should be moved 1 tile south to put it in Oaxaca, which is a production center - but that puts it outside of Tenochtitlan’s reach. There are many producing regions though, so this one is more flexible and I don’t have a strong opinion on where to put it.
- Gold: Added a second site in the pacific coast (in Guerrero), which was the main production area in prehispanic times. Perhaps the current instance in Sonora shouldn’t spawn until the 1500s. If two instances are too many then the southern one can be removed as the other one spawns, and perhaps it could be changed to iron to provide production to Mexico City.
- Whale: Mexico is one of the main breeding and nesting sites, added one whale on the South the Baja peninsula.
- Fish and seafood: Removed the crab from Yucatan (fishing is minimal there), and changed it to the gulf coast off of Veracruz. I added fish and crabs to the Gulf of California which accounts for about 60% of the national seafood production and is famous for having one of the highest marine bioproductivity levels in the world. I placed these and the already existing clam within reach of several cities (Tijuana, los Cabos, Mazatlan, Hermosillo). Added another fish off the coast of Guerrero where it can be in reach of Acapulco or Oaxaca and make up for the deer I removed).

Colonial & Modern Mexico:
- Cotton: The existing cotton currently in Sonora should spawn only in the 1600s, when cotton production became important and agriculture expanded in North Mexico. I moved the location of the resource from Sonora to Chihuahua, because that is where more than half the cotton is grown today.
- Horses: These are required for the Mexican unique unit. The main production area is Veracruz. I think the cotton there could be replaced with horses in the 1600s (it’s the original domestication area, but it’s not an important producing area anymore), or they could appear on the grassland tile southeast of the cotton. They could also appear anywhere in the center or north (except the Pacific coast), as those areas are also producing regions.
- Sugar, Banana, Coffee: Mexico is currently the 6th producer of sugar, so added one instance on the Gulf coast, in the main producing region. Banana and coffee are also produced, but Mexico is not as big a producer globally, so not sure if they should be added. In any case, these three crops are not native and should only appear after the 1500s.
- Cattle: Modern agriculture in the north of Mexico is known for cattle production (both beef and dairy), so added two cattle in compensation of the corn removed from the Rio Grande. One cattle is in Tamaulipas, the other in Durango.
- Silver: Mexico is the largest producer worldwide, but the mines were not exploited until the Spanish arrival, so these should only appear in the 1500s. Changed the marble (which Mexico doesn’t produce) to silver in Sonora. Moved the other silver one tile southeast to Zacatecas, which is the largest producing region. Thinking of having a third site, but not sure if it would be too much.
- Iron: Added iron to Nuevo Leon, which is currently the main steel producing region (although iron ore deposits are elsewhere, I think it fits here better, because Monterrey, the city there, concentrates a lot of the heavy industry in the country.
- Coal: added it in Coahuila, the main producing region, to complete the industrial profile of Monterrey
- Copper: Moved the copper in the North west to Sonora, which is the one of the main producing regions.
- Oil: Moved the existing oil south, to the location of Cantarell field, which is the 2nd largest field in the world (after a Saudi Arabian one)

Other thoughts:
- Cocoa: If this resource is added (and I so hope so), the existing spices in Yucatan should be changed to cocoa, and a second instance should be placed in Central America.
- Gems: could be placed (in the southern part of the Pacific coast) to represent jade and obsidian, which were prominent in Mesoamerican art. Didn’t add it because it might be too many resources, but would be cool to have.

And I have the world builder file with the edits (uploaded - hope that worked), if that's easier to work with!

 

[Steb]

As someone who has never been to Mexico but who has been researching Mesoamerican history quite a bit recently, I like the general direction of these suggestions! I would add that Baja California should probably look more diagonal, so maybe move its last tile 1E?

On an unrelated note, I forgot to say this, Leoreth, but thanks for putting silver in Greece! Its absence has always been a minor annoyance.

 

[merijn_v1]

Nice post, with good elaboration.

Next to the "Post Reply" button is a "Upload a File" button if you want to upload a file.

 

[Lokki242]

Where can I find a copy of this map to mess around with?