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Alternative Map for DOC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Bautos42, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Looks good, but to my admittedly uneducated eye the South Island seems a bit thick along the upper half and maybe a bit short compared to the North island. I'd suggest maybe shaving the top one or two mountains on the South Island and moving the whole South Island 1SW adding two more on the NE coast. Might be too long though.

    EDIT: Connecting would solve the latitudinal discrepancy
     
  2. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Warlord

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    While I like your design in theory, I am not convinced that it should be increased in size at all. Your new design has New Zealand just a lot larger in comparison to Australia and Tasmania than it is in real life. As you said before:

    But now considering that New Zealand is about 4 Times as big as Tasmania, the current 12-tiles version is just far better scaled. My point is, why would New Zealand actually deserve this kind of special treatment (from an ingame perspective, this is not meant to offend New Zealand in any way, it's a beautiful country)? I'd personally refrain from enlarging areas if there is no gameplay reason for doing so. Of course some islands like Great Britain or Java are oversized, but they are the cores of civs represented in the game. A larger New Zealand would, if at all, help Polynesia (where the area is certainly not the main focus) or a hypothetical Australian Civ, a proper New Zealander being highly unlikely. Thus, while there is in theory no reason not to implement it (There is enough space down there), in practice it adds nearly nothing to the game and I thus would prefer keeping the scale. But I'd certainly love to add some appropriate resources and terrain changes, and if you have suggestions of improving the shape of New Zealand without exploding it in size, like separating the two islands, I would be great.


    @Leoreth Could you upload your current version of the map? I wanted to do some experimentation with Africa and having your changes to Egypt would be great. (The new resources should be inconsequential as i do not use the worldbuilder)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
    BasilBerylium and Leoreth like this.
  3. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I much prefer them separate, not just because I have familiarity bias (I live right next to the Cook Strait), but because I've tried all sorts of configurations and just cannot get any to look good. One idea I had was to replace the NE tile of the South Island with an Island feature, as that is the location of the Marlborough Sounds:

    sounds.jpg

    Looked stupid though.

    That's correct.

    It cuts through the South Island immediately west of the coal tile and immediately east of the Island/Clam tile.

    I anticipated this feedback, as my design deliberately favoured shape over size. But I've also been working on one with that balance weighted more in the other direction:

    NZ Small.jpg

    Actually came out much better than I expected, though the North Island looks a bit anaemic. Joining the islands looks even worse at this size than it does with the larger version though, so I urge against trying that. Resources are in the same places except for the Coal which is now in the NW corner of the South Island. The wraparound line is immediately east of the Jade resource. This shift actually made Stewart Island look more realistic too, which was a nice bonus.

    My objection to 4-tile Tasmania was more that it messed up the shape of the island, rather than it just being too big. 3-tile Tasmania looks much more like the real thing. I didn't communicate that very clearly.

    Java is the 13th largest island in the world – North Island is the 14th and South Island is the 12th. As you rightly say, Java is a massive population/political centre and needs to be large for gameplay purposes. NZ does not. Useful point of reference though. Java on the version of the map I have is 10 tiles, my original North Island is 9 tiles and South Island is 10 tiles. In the smaller configuration they are 7 and 8, respectively
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  4. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Here's a shot in context:

    NZ Small 2.jpg
     
  5. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Your second design looks better. The South island has a pinch in the middle which seems geographically correct and the proportions are a bit better. Still not sold on having two islands but it could make for an interesting scenario in which Polynesia colonizes one island and then an independent other pops up shortly after which you have to launch a naval assault.
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    So for comparison I tried your proposal while keeping the islands connected:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0358.JPG

    I think it approximates the recognisable shape of the two islands better.

    By the way, comparing your and my screenshot illustrates how much more vibrant HR's terrain is. I am considering to switch to it.

    I also added Millet and Amber as discussed:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0360.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0361.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0362.JPG

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0363.JPG


    I have also been thinking about making Tundra and Desert more of a natural obstacle, i.e. removing most the ability to enter them from most units except the usual exceptions (like Scouts or units with the Desert Adaptation promotion), as well as building roads and improvements. Rivers could be an exception to this rule (at least for improvements) and of course features like Oases. Also, while I did not try this yet, cultural coverage should allow all units access like it does with Oceans. Also, we can deliberately break up these limitations where necessary when the new Semidesert or Moorland terrains are included.
     
  7. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Amber could both exist on land and in the sea.

    And how about add shrimp as an seafood resourse? Since Millet and potato have been added as food resourses on land, we need a new seafood resourse.

    Also I suggest to add fish in the Caspian Sea, to represent the caviar. And actually it should produce commerce and a few food, since caviar is not a very important resourse, it's not necessary to add a caviar resourse.

    And why the tile of Sankt-Petersburg is marsh?
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I don't really understand what you mean. What does culture spread have to do with trade routes, what is diagonal spread and how would it solve the problem?
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    What do you think about having a true Venice in the water?

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0374.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0375.JPG

    Lagoon is a new terrain type that uses Coast art but is treated as land, so land units can move there and build a city. It looks rather fitting. The terrain also has +100% defense so Venice is historically hard to conquer. It's kind of a gimmick because this is the only place on the map I could think of where this would be actually used, but it represents the unique nature of the city better than anything else we've had.

    In other news, I quickly revisited Polynesia to make sure it behaves the same in its UHV. In some cases this meant that I reverted the configuration of the islands to be closer to the old map.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0373.JPG
     
  10. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Would it be possible to have some islands on the lagoon as well? Currently it does look too much like a normal coast tile, IMO.
     
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  11. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Are naval units able to move through lagoons? If so, that could be used to fix Crete, Sardinia and Corsica, and Ireland, albeit through a rename such as short-boat ride. Come to think of, that could also be used for Japan and Constantinople.
     
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  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    It's pretty clear from the elevation I think. It's not that noticeable in the screenshot but the waves from the surrounding coast tiles break against the lagoon tile emphasising its special status. Having islands on the tile would be weird because they would need to be removed when the city is founded so they do not interfere with the city art.

    No (unless you build a city on them of course). They are land tiles and follow all the rules for land tiles.
     
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  13. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    When city built on lagoon, does its population also counts as Core Area Population?
     
  14. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I agree the lagoon tile should have different art somehow (maybe just sandbars?) but I really like the idea.

    Would it be possible to change the rules for 'island' features so that both land and sea units are able to traverse them? That would allow you to connect the two islands of New Zealand (and, for that matter, connect Denmark to Scandanavia) while still allowing naval units to pass through.
     
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  15. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Even better idea!

    Yes, it's possible.
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    As land tiles, lagoon tiles would have a stability type and be part of a core if applicable. For example, the Venetian lagoon would be in the Italian core, so its population would count as core area population.

    Well, this is the easiest way to graphically represent this because it is basically only applying the coast texture to a land tile. I certainly cannot create anything else.

    I don't know if islands are the right way to do this because it could have unintentional consequences. But I have for a while considered sea tiles that can be traversed by land units. However, the problem is that the game only has the notion of whether a unit can exist on a tile, and uses this to determine if a unit can traverse a certain path. However, this would require allowing land unit to pass through a sea tile but not ending their turn in it. I have no idea if it is possible to implement that into the game considering that parts of the pathfinding logic are baked into the exe.
     
  17. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Maybe the tile of Sankt-Petersburg could also be lagoon?

    By the way, what do you think about my suggestions on #1032?
     
  18. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Why can't we just allow units to end their turns on these special sea tiles?
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I don't think we need another seafood resource. I will look into the food situation at the Caspian Sea.

    St. Petersburg is a marsh initially because that's what Ingria has mostly been like. Historically, the area wasn't settled until Peter the Great decided to move his capital there, and the swamps were drained using intensive labour. In the game, the marshes will disappear at an appropriate date around 1700 AD so the city can be settled.

    Because that would be stupid.
     
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  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Like naval units ending turns in a city?
     

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