Alternative Map for DOC

[Leoreth]

No, unlike naval units ending turns in a city, which is not stupid.

 

[merijn_v1]

I agree the lagoon tile should have different art somehow (maybe just sandbars?) but I really like the idea.

Adding just some sandbars shouldn't be very hard.

 

[1SDANi]

No, unlike naval units ending turns in a city, which is not stupid.

No, I'd say they're equally stupid.

 

[Leoreth]

Of course, you're allowed to be wrong.

 

[Steb]

This lagoon idea is very interesting. Some thoughts:
- Unless a city is on the tile, regular military units should probably not be allowed on it (similarly to marshes). And the 100% defense bonus (which btw sounds a bit high) doesn't really make sense unless there's a city.
- I'm trying to think of other places where a lagoon might be appropriate. Maybe it would make some sense in the Netherlands? Have you experimented with that?
- It might also be interesting to see if the lagoon can be used in the Pacific to better represent atolls. If someone can add sandbars around it, it could end up looking quite nice, and add some terrain diversity to Oceania.
- One place it would actually make sense to have a watery tile with a city on top is Nan Madol, on the island of Pohnpei in Micronesia. Of course we don't have a civilization that would ever found that city, but it would be nice for the possibility to exist.

 

[merijn_v1]

What do you think about having a true Venice in the water?

Spoiler :

View attachment 496129 View attachment 496130

Wait a minute... VENICE CIV CONFIRMED!

 

[1SDANi]

Of course, you're allowed to be wrong.

And still you give no reasoning... I've been trying to be discrete but I'll ask straight out, WHY IS UNITS ENDING THEIR TURNS ON ISLAND-LIKE TILES STUPID???

 

[Leoreth]

This lagoon idea is very interesting. Some thoughts:
- Unless a city is on the tile, regular military units should probably not be allowed on it (similarly to marshes). And the 100% defense bonus (which btw sounds a bit high) doesn't really make sense unless there's a city

Yeah, it should probably prevent access to everything but settlers. The defense bonus would then only apply when there's a city anyway. And of course I can reduce it to say 50%.

- I'm trying to think of other places where a lagoon might be appropriate. Maybe it would make some sense in the Netherlands? Have you experimented with that

I also considered that, but it doesn't quite seem right. It's reclaimed land and not a lagoon.

- It might also be interesting to see if the lagoon can be used in the Pacific to better represent atolls. If someone can add sandbars around it, it could end up looking quite nice, and add some terrain diversity to Oceania.
- One place it would actually make sense to have a watery tile with a city on top is Nan Madol, on the island of Pohnpei in Micronesia. Of course we don't have a civilization that would ever found that city, but it would be nice for the possibility to exist.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Even without new art lagoon plus islands could actually be a good way to represent atolls.

And still you give no reasoning... I've been trying to be discrete but I'll ask straight out, WHY IS UNITS ENDING THEIR TURNS ON ISLAND-LIKE TILES STUPID???

most people cant walk on water

 

[Leoreth]

More watery experiments:

Spoiler :

New Arctic Coast terrain with one less food per tile. I also tried to visually distinguish it from regular coast with a somewhat brighter and less saturated texture. Unfortunately, the game does not seem to be capable to seamlessly connect different water terrains, so you see these rectangular borders. I'll ask around if there's anything I can do to fix that, otherwise both will need to look identical.

 

[merijn_v1]

Maybe the Oasis art could be enlarged to create Pacific lagoons. (inlcuding a palmtree) But then it is forced to be a terrain features instead of a terrain type.

From what I know of the terrain texture mechanics, I'm afraid it's now possible to get rid of the borders between different coast terrains.

 

[Bautos42]

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Even without new art lagoon plus islands could actually be a good way to represent atolls.

You could just use the atoll feature from History Rewritten in order to represent them.

Anyways, could you upload your current version of the map?

Why can't we just allow units to end their turns on these special sea tiles?

I guess, apart from any concerns from a design perspective, it migth create problems if a naval unit and a land unit of different civs at war end their turn on the tile. You'd probably have to implement a way for naval and land units to figth, which would create a lot of new problems.

 

[merijn_v1]

A comparison between different atol art types. The first picture is the atol art from HR. The second picture are upscaled oases.

Spoiler :

 

[Bautos42]

A comparison between different atol art types. The first picture is the atol art from HR. The second picture is an upscaled oasis.

Could the palms be removed? Generally, I think the oasis would look great as a lagoon (without palms), while I'd use the atoll feature to represent actuall atolls.

 

[merijn_v1]

I'm not sure. I cannot remove them myself. But maybe someone with more nif experience can.

EDIT:
I can remove them. I technically didn't remove them, but I made them fully transparant, which has the same result.

They are currently a bit below the water surface, but I can easily adjust the Z-axis so they rise above the water.

Spoiler :

 

[Publicola]

A comparison between different atol art types. The first picture is the atol art from HR. The second picture are upscaled oases.

The HR atoll might be decent, if you could make the inner part a light blue and expand the 'shell' so it looks like a sandbar. Otherwise it just looks weirdly artificial.

The second image with the upscaled oasis works quite a bit better, though part of that is the light blue inner part of the atoll (at least for the one of the left). The one on the right doesn't work for me.

Also, I actually like the palm trees -- sure it's disproportionate, but so are the trees in a normal forest/rainforest/jungle tile.

Unfortunately, the game does not seem to be capable to seamlessly connect different water terrains, so you see these rectangular borders. I'll ask around if there's anything I can do to fix that, otherwise both will need to look identical.

I don't really understand this -- the game already 'seamlessly connects' normal coast and ocean tiles without the artificial rectangles, so why wouldn't the same mechanic apply for different types of coast tiles?

(Also: are 'arctic coast' tiles really less food-bearing than other coasts? Are there less fish in cold water?)

Adding just some sandbars shouldn't be very hard.

Are you able to add the sandbars, or know anyone else who could?

 

[1SDANi]

most people cant walk on water

We're not talking about a water tile, we're talking about a tile with islands larger than the current island tile. The idea is that they cross the water here like they cross rivers.

 

[Steb]

One of the reasons the Venice-style lagoon sounded interesting to me for atolls — and I mean atolls that are land tiles and can support cities, not decorative features — is the increased elevation. If someone wants to experiment with that, it could be interesting.

If it doesn't pan out, I'd still advocate for Nan Madol to be represented by a lagoon tile (next to a land tile that would be the island of Pohnpei).

 

[Leoreth]

I don't really understand this -- the game already 'seamlessly connects' normal coast and ocean tiles without the artificial rectangles, so why wouldn't the same mechanic apply for different types of coast tiles?

Me neither, but I assume it's because coast and ocean have different elevation levels, causing the game to handle their transition differently.

(Also: are 'arctic coast' tiles really less food-bearing than other coasts? Are there less fish in cold water?)

Cities in the arctic are certainly smaller than their ability to produce food from coasts would suggest,

We're not talking about a water tile, we're talking about a tile with islands larger than the current island tile. The idea is that they cross the water here like they cross rivers.

You can't end your turn on a river either.

 

[merijn_v1]

One of the reasons the Venice-style lagoon sounded interesting to me for atolls — and I mean atolls that are land tiles and can support cities, not decorative features — is the increased elevation. If someone wants to experiment with that, it could be interesting.

If it doesn't pan out, I'd still advocate for Nan Madol to be represented by a lagoon tile (next to a land tile that would be the island of Pohnpei).

I planned to do some experimenting on this. Results will be posted when ready,

I don't really understand this -- the game already 'seamlessly connects' normal coast and ocean tiles without the artificial rectangles, so why wouldn't the same mechanic apply for different types of coast tiles?

(Also: are 'arctic coast' tiles really less food-bearing than other coasts? Are there less fish in cold water?)

The smooth transtition is caused by some (partial) alpha channels in the texture of the ocean. Those could be added to the new coast texture, but I don't know how this will interact with other textures.

EDIT: You can add the alpha channel for a smooth transition, but then you also have a smooth transition between the coast and land tiles and no sandy beach.

Are you able to add the sandbars, or know anyone else who could?

I am able to add the sandbars. (I think. )

 

[1SDANi]

You can't end your turn on a river either.

But you can stop your turn on a boat. Ending your turn on a short boatride tile is just stopping on a boat that can cross short distances.