Alternative Map for DOC

[Akbarthegreat]

PS: MORE REGIONS, PLEASE. The new map badly needs them. Would it be possible to allow editing of the region map through WB, though? I'm itching to add more regions already.

What are these regions used for?

 

[merijn_v1]

All kind of things. Company values, Congresses, Colonies, Dynamic civ names, Religions and more.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

Seven tiles seems like a choke to me, but it can be addressed with more resources. I still don't see how that is more geographically accurate, though.

Spoiler :

View attachment 480235

Edit: Both tiles would be somewhat geographically accurate, actually. But it's better to give breathing room to Austria+Hungary+Serbia; Athens has water tiles for growth, anyway.

Having only 1 tile between Salonica and Athens looks worse than the slight crowding of Belgrade. You can get an 8 pop city with only 5-6 workable tiles if the resources and planning are good, and Belgrade isn't a huge city, even today.

 

[Jules Auburn]

Is it really necessary to set cities that cannot fully work their first ring onto this map? Especially when their corresponding civilizations haven't been implemented.

I assume all the cities there are only for context, no AI will ever found cities this way and I certainly won't do this placement in a scenario.

I had the glut of cities for reference; they are where I would place each city if I had to. Obviously, placing all of them results in far too much crowding.

Here is my feedback
1. Asia Minor looks better when stretched from the eastern side (i.e. 1 extra column in the Trebizond area) than on the western side like you did, but this is minor and can be easily changed - here's my proposal for Asia Minor + Byzantine city placement
2. I really don't like the land connection between Denmark and Sweden, for three reasons, some more valid/important than others.
a. It turns the Baltic into a lake and makes Atlantic access for Baltic civs dependent on good relations with or control of Copenhagen
b. It's not really geographically accurate
c. It looks rather strange
3. The new Pomeranian coastline looks nice around Stettin, but I don't like the way it gives Berlin sea access. The two tiles removed from the Danzig area sort of looks like someone took a bite out of Poland, though.
4. The way you did the shift made the Vistula 1 tile wider, which shouldn't actually happen. Just put Warsaw on the East side and leave the Vistula the way it was - Warsaw (and Cracow) are on both sides of the Vistula, so either side is equally geographically accurate.
5. Prague should be 1S

1. Of course. When I get around to messing with the Balkans, that was going to be one of my first edits. I like your Anatolia, though.

2. a. The same situation is produced with Constantinople and the Black Sea, or the Suez. These were important, historical chokepoints, and I think that they do their job nicely. My biggest issue is that to pass the Oresund or the Bosphorus, a city or fort must exist. This could be fixed by allowing ships to pass diagonally through a narrow isthmus:

Spoiler :

I remember that this was a feature in Civ2, which allowed for navigable island chains and straits.
b. Enlarging Europe to the size that it is isn't geographically accurate. :^)
c. I think that the strangeness stems partially from how blocky it is. Here you can see that it's not terribly inaccurate:

Spoiler :

3. It does bother me that it makes Berlin a port, but it bothers me more that the coastline was strait. It's not up to me either way, which is probably a good thing.
I made Pomerania a bit thin because that's the only way I could get Danzig and Konigsburg on the same map without excessive crowding. It looks better three tiles wide.

4. That might help alleviate the crowding around the Vistula, at the cost of crowding some other Eastern European cities like L'viv.

5. Prague is on the north end of Bohemia, right on that tributary of the Elbe. I think that either is close enough.

Spoiler :

 

[Ani Taneen]

2. a. The same situation is produced with Constantinople and the Black Sea, or the Suez. These were important, historical chokepoints, and I think that they do their job nicely. My biggest issue is that to pass the Oresund or the Bosphorus, a city or fort must exist. This could be fixed by allowing ships to pass diagonally through a narrow isthmus:

Spoiler :

I remember that this was a feature in Civ2, which allowed for navigable island chains and straits.
b. Enlarging Europe to the size that it is isn't geographically accurate. :^)
c. I think that the strangeness stems partially from how blocky it is. Here you can see that it's not terribly inaccurate:

Spoiler :

I'm just trying to picture how it is that Russia NEEDS to capture Copenhagen to sends its navy against Any target. I get what you're trying to accomplish, but the difference between the history of the Black Sea and Seuz with the Baltic has to do in part with how narrow the former were to the later. I can see a situation where a Baltic civ can go to war with Norway/Sweden to have their ships cross into the Atlantic without capturing the Danish capital. That slot could be represented with an islands tile and still have the same geographic look.

 

[Leoreth]

Open borders?

 

[Ani Taneen]

Open borders?

I get that, but if they collapse, there is no getting open borders with the independent civ. I feel like this needs some gameplay to see how much the impact affects a late game.

 

[Fresol]

I like how the new land route connecting Denmark and Scandinavia dissuades the Vikings from building the around-the-Baltic road, which I observed often when playing as Russia. AI Vikings is under-performing because they invest much of their work force in building this meaningless road, I suppose.

Land-locked Baltic Sea is a problem, but it doesn't affect many civilizations as land connection is easier for AI to handle. For Russia, we can always encourage the settling of Мурманск as a military port. Put a fish and several workable tiles there, make it historical for Russia and problem solved.

 

[Alexius08]

How about Poland? Will they be allowed to occasionally recreate Courland's colonies?

 

[Fresol]

The feature is still in the game. But a small bug (the word "not" missing somewhere) disabled the feature from working. Will upload a PR soon. Thanks for noticing it.

Thanks for your work in making the new map editor. But are you planning to fix this bug soon? It could be very helpful. Thanks again.

 

[Fresol]

How about Poland? Will they be allowed to occasionally recreate Courland's colonies?

If they are in good terms with Vikings or Holy Rome(Hamburg as passage). If neither, then... well probably colony should not be their main concern.

Edit: Even with the original map you can't reach the Atlantic from the Baltic if you have OB with neither Vikings nor Holy Rome.

 

[merijn_v1]

Thanks for your work in making the new map editor. But are you planning to fix this bug soon? It could be very helpful. Thanks again.

This fix is already in another PR already. But a different part of that PR requires some updating before it gets merged.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

I assume all the cities there are only for context, no AI will ever found cities this way and I certainly won't do this placement in a scenario.

It's not any more crowded than Europe on the current map
Though I would move Prague 1S, Copenhagen 1NW (and remove the land connection between Sweden and Denmark).
The cities can all grow to reasonable sizes

 

[Akbarthegreat]

All kind of things. Company values, Congresses, Colonies, Dynamic civ names, Religions and more.

Oh so regions already exist in DoC?

 

[merijn_v1]

Quite a while actually. But they are more under the hood than SoI or RFCE.

 

[Leoreth]

It's not any more crowded than Europe on the current map

And the reason for a larger map is that things are not so crowded anymore.

 

[Ani Taneen]

And the reason for a larger map is that things are not so crowded anymore.

I thought we had a policy against making sense?

I think that the larger map will increase the calls for more minor civilizations to be included (like the Papal States). Which in turn will crowd the map further.

 

[Leoreth]

I thought we had a policy against making sense?

I don't understand this post so apparently yes.

I think that the larger map will increase the calls for more minor civilizations to be included (like the Papal States). Which in turn will crowd the map further.

Wrong, those calls will only crowd the map further if they end up being implemented, which they won't.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Fair enough,

Though Europe is not really where most of new civs are being called for. I wonder when Central Asia will get focused on, after all that's where most of the new civs will be implemented.

 

[Leoreth]

Central Asia is first priority, I have said this many times. I think you give too much attention to what people are talking about in this forum, what the current discussion here is focused on has no bearing on my priorities.