Alternatives to the cottage capital - bureaucracy - oxford university combination?

[sinimusta]

One thing to take into account is slider position. The higher it is (or the longer you can run 100%) the better for bureau. A scenario really favoring FS (outside culture) would be a very large empire with maintenance lowering the slider position with a ton of cottages. But agree with Sera regarding nationhood, it's a strong option if you need EPs or units/security.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't wanna teach you things you know already, but what many people (including me 3y ago) don't see, is, that Nationhood costs no maintenance, therefore it has about the same efficiency as Buro. Nationhood over Buro i. e. means 200 less , but therefore 200 more (+ the ability to draft + extra ) .

 

[Pangaea]

You need a really big empire for Buro Nationhood to be better economically though, which most probably won't have on standard maps.

 

[Seraiel]

You need a really big empire for Buro to be better economically though, which most probably won't have on standard maps.

You mean Nationalism, right?

 

[Pangaea]

Yes

I've heard talk of 40 cities for Nationhood to overtake Buro.

 

[EvilLurksIntrnt]

((CapitalBaseCommerce*0.5) - (#CapitalTowns*2)) * 2.5 - (#OutsideTowns*2)

The reason I multiply by 2.5 is due to Oxford and Academy (assumed to be in capital, not outside cities).

Anyways, I also decided to make a quick worldbuild scenario:

Spoiler :

Notice that Free Speech and Bureaucracy is almost dead even here. And this scenario is really heavily favoring Free Speech with a total of 25 Towns, 15 outside the capital.

Bibracte only got an additional goldmine, but there's little trade route commerce (only 2 per city) and no riverside. Don't mind the resources near Tolosa, that's only for happy and health.

With Bureaucracy the capital is making 306 So Vienne and Tolosa + Free Speech only brings in an additional 124

In ur testing u got too small cities, when fs is researched they are more like on my screen

Also, i totally forgot (cause rarely can be used in multiplayer) about trade routes, they very often might give >30 gold indeed. To outweght that number it seems that u will need 15 more cottages outside, so is like additional good city.

 

[Seraiel]

Nationhood takes a lot of cities to be better than Buro, but it's an awesome Civic already before. I seldomly play without it nowadays, drafted Rifles are actually even more powerful than Cuirrs imo.

 

[Seraiel]

@evil: I often reach FS between 100 and 300 AD. Then my capital maybe is size 15 or 16, but never ever are my arbitary cities above size 10. They also don't have all nice cottageable grasslands, and they got resources, which your cities also don't got. At that time, I have 0 towns, because Cottages take much more time to develop. At last, Workshops become strong with Chemistry, which is only slightly later than Liberalism, so I prefer building those. Your cities unfortunately are highly unrealistic.

 

[EvilLurksIntrnt]

Ok more realistic pops

 

[Seraiel]

Still unrealistic.

 

[EvilLurksIntrnt]

Oh, i got the point now, Windsor's screen is the sizes of cities on the limit point when its almost equal.

 

[EvilLurksIntrnt]

But i think that is less than realistic for small+ pangea map.
Also time of adopting fs is not with liberalism, but with democracy.

 

[Windsor]

Still unrealistic.

Nah, getting 13 mature towns in a city isn't unrealistic by liberalism. It is in HoF games, but not slower games.

Oh, i got the point now, Windsor's screen is the sizes of cities on the limit point when its almost equal.

Yes, I wanted a point where it's almost equal, but I don't think 10 towns is low. While the cities might have a few more population points, those will not be working mature towns.

But I think our screenshots really does show just how little is gained with secondary cottage cities. The investment needed is quite large and the benefit really small. It's hard to see how the other cities wouldn't be better with farms, mines and workshops unless you got several great cottage cities.

 

[Seraiel]

But i think that is less than realistic for small+ pangea map.
Also time of adopting fs is not with liberalism, but with democracy.

I cannot open the test game, so I can't look at it. I assume, that at least 10 cities with Cottages are needed for FS to be better than Buro, under realistic settings, and that still doesn't say anything about, if Hammer economies aren't better.

And why is adopting FS with Democracy? Democracy is US, not FS.

 

[EvilLurksIntrnt]

I cannot open the test game, so I can't look at it. I assume, that at least 10 cities with Cottages are needed for FS to be better than Buro, under realistic settings, and that still doesn't say anything about, if Hammer economies aren't better.

And why is adopting FS with Democracy? Democracy is US, not FS.

Well i think that 10 is too big number, i think 6 is a better number, but even 4 is very often already enough.

Adopting FS with democracy because of 3 factors:
1. adopt all in one go with 1 anarchy or golden age
2. time when many towns are grown.
3. U want atleast burocracy for production before u get to US if u have that many cottages.

Well u will definatelly have less tech with hammer economies.
In hammer economy u need farm+mine to get more tech output than 2 cottages?

 

[Seraiel]

I won't argue. 13 Towns at Liberalism are completely unrealistic, because whipped Forges ans Universities right before. Arbitary cities will be size 4-6, that relates to a maximum of 5 Cottages / city. Also, this has nothing to do with HoF or not. Liberalism can be researched without problems 'til 500 AD, one won't have many mature Towns 'til then, one will have lots of Hamlets and a hand full of Villages and maybe 1-3 Towns. I've played too many, so I know that, also games without typical HoF starts.

Also, US is not as strong at research as REP is, and Workshops kick in with an instant 3-4 Hammers, Cottages cannot compare to that unless riverside + FIN, but then, Hammer are still better.
Thinking Hammers mean less Techs would prove many very good Space Races wrong. They are at least equal, and when it comes to production, they're far better.

 

[Seraiel]

If you want, I will proove what I wrote with various games once I have my computer back (max. 10d from today) . To have many Towns as early as you say, one would need more Workerturns and earlier Settlers.

 

[elitetroops]

I tried to find some real life example for real numbers by looking up a few ~1000AD saves from #1 HoF space games. None of them had even nearly enough towns to make it worth even checking the numbers.

Then I looked at the final save of Tachy's 1725AD large Deity space game. At that time he had 79 towns. Switching from Bureau to FS increased beakers from 7696/turn to 7863/turn. That's indeed a nice 2.2% increase in research. With 79 towns!

Okay, so 167 bpt is still a nice increase, but it will be very late in the game until you get anywhere near that. And at that point the capital had already been converted for production with workshops on floodplains and stuff, so it doesn't compare. I assume he was in bureau because he had built spaceship parts in capital.

Btw. if you wonder where the rest of the 7000 beakers come from, it's from hammer economy (and scientists).

 

[Seraiel]

Thx elitetroops.

 

[Windsor]

You should probably look more at PBEM games rather than HoF games if you want real life examples.