elitetroops
Deity
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This thread is not about MP, so PBEM strategies are irrelevant.
To find out what works best in single player games, I look at the best games.
Alternatives to the cottage capital - bureaucracy - oxford university combination?
- Thread starter wongfu
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To find out what works best in single player games, I look at the best games.
EvilLurksIntrnt
Chieftain
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Btw. if you wonder where the rest of the 7000 beakers come from, it's from hammer economy (and scientists).
well so he didnt have too many cottages there? how many cities he had with those 79 towns?
elitetroops
Deity
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I think it was something like 46 cities.
Fair enough, at least look at NoTechTrading games.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Come on, how many players play with no tech trading? Seriously...
Also: why don't you search for a more favourable example? It's in your interest.
Pangaea
Rock N Roller
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If you want an alternative to a cottage capital - not really an alternative to Buro, because Buro kicks ass - but the capital itself can be hilly and become a production beast instead. Pump out and maybe settle specialist, and build the NE there. Maybe in addition to that, or as an alternative, build the HE in the capital and pump out troops non stop to kill your neighbours.
There is a reason why the typical approach is to cottage the capital though
There is a reason why the typical approach is to cottage the capital though
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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For the sake of this argument, someone plz look at the 1505 AD Space Race feom kovacsflo. He specifically used FS + Emancipation iirc.. It's the most favourable example for FS that can be found.
It still won't change what has been written. FS need huge amounts of Towns and Towns come very late in the game. In optimized games, Towns are of minor importance because Hammer economy is a very strong choice.
Ofc., examples for which FS is the strongest options can be found, but FS is in no way stronger than it's alternatives, which was the start of this argument.
It still won't change what has been written. FS need huge amounts of Towns and Towns come very late in the game. In optimized games, Towns are of minor importance because Hammer economy is a very strong choice.
Ofc., examples for which FS is the strongest options can be found, but FS is in no way stronger than it's alternatives, which was the start of this argument.
My guess would be that NoTechTrading is one of the more common custom game options? Anyway, it was just a recommendation if you actually want to find games that have a decent chance of having a solid number of towns around liberalism.
I don't keep my saves so I don't have a database to search through.
Seraiel
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Make a poll and find it out, I don't know either. I'd suspect that less than 10% of the players play with that option.
Seraiel
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Interesting. That SR fron kovacsflo is actually the best non-marathon Deity SR. There are slightly slower games with worse leaders, that could be compared.
Seems like if really adjusting the whole playstyle, FS is an option. I think Hammer / Buro economy still got the edge though, because the games to compare to were played with obviosly weaker leaders while being less than 20T behind.
Seems like if really adjusting the whole playstyle, FS is an option. I think Hammer / Buro economy still got the edge though, because the games to compare to were played with obviosly weaker leaders while being less than 20T behind.
elitetroops
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I think difficulty also might make a difference. On the lower levels you don't need as much hammers early and can afford to grow more cottages. On higher difficulties you need much more army.
You could check iggymnrr's settler space games.Iirc those are quite heavily cottaged. Edit: nope, hammer economy. He won those games so early cottages wouldn't have had time to mature into towns.
You could check iggymnrr's settler space games.
Seraiel
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I unfortunately cannot check elitetroops, because I don't have a PC for 1 week. kovacsflo's game would make a briliant case, because it's Deity / Huge. Huge favours FS greatly because the capital is less important with more cities.
Maybe I can give an equasion to find out, how many towns in his game were needed for FS to outperform Buro. I believe you are better at maths though, so you could find that out by yourself probably. Sry for causing work.
elitetroops
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Edited the post above, in case you didn't notice. Was wrong about iggymnrr's games.
kovacsflo's game is quite interesting. FS in 1420AD is clearly better as he has 60 towns (no earlier save available). What is quite remarkable though, is that he has expanded peacefully to 28 cities without ever going to war. On deity... The map is quite crazy with some huge mountain ranges, which helped him block off land.
kovacsflo's game is quite interesting. FS in 1420AD is clearly better as he has 60 towns (no earlier save available). What is quite remarkable though, is that he has expanded peacefully to 28 cities without ever going to war. On deity... The map is quite crazy with some huge mountain ranges, which helped him block off land.
EvilLurksIntrnt
Chieftain
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In multiplayer no tech trading is always on. And people mostly do all cottages not because they skip doing army, but because cottages work good with slavery.
BTW, I am done with my first experimental game on hammer economy. Here are my observations:
- It seems that having 1-2 cottage cities is essential. During the time when land competition is severe [before alphabet and currency], that's the way to prevent bankruptcy.
- Not sure about the best way to transit from slavery-driven production to workshop-driven production. Perhaps I should whip less and start building workshops when I am getting near guilds. When a number of cities grow to about size 10, switch to caste system.
- After I finish off 1 opponent with 10 cities, my economy is supported by research and wealth, meaning that some cities are forced to stop their military production. Having science slider at 0% still results in negative income; this is an economic situation I have never experienced in my conventional cottage economy games.
- Because I avoid building cottages, a lot of forests are left untouched - I just don't know what to do with them. Since my cities are whipped constantly, those forest tiles aren't used. Before guilds, removing the forest for workshop doesn't make sense.
- It seems that having 1-2 cottage cities is essential. During the time when land competition is severe [before alphabet and currency], that's the way to prevent bankruptcy.
- Not sure about the best way to transit from slavery-driven production to workshop-driven production. Perhaps I should whip less and start building workshops when I am getting near guilds. When a number of cities grow to about size 10, switch to caste system.
- After I finish off 1 opponent with 10 cities, my economy is supported by research and wealth, meaning that some cities are forced to stop their military production. Having science slider at 0% still results in negative income; this is an economic situation I have never experienced in my conventional cottage economy games.
- Because I avoid building cottages, a lot of forests are left untouched - I just don't know what to do with them. Since my cities are whipped constantly, those forest tiles aren't used. Before guilds, removing the forest for workshop doesn't make sense.
elitetroops
Deity
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No matter what economy you are running, it's always some sort of a hybrid. You can't work with only hammers, nor with only cottages or only specialists. Cottaging capital, for example, is usually always a good idea.
Why leave forests untouched? Usually I chop them for the hammers after math, not because I want to improve the tile underneath. More hammers earlier for an earlier gain often snowballs into much better results later. Whipping is not replacing chopping, you use them both.
At what date was your income negative at 0% slider and how many cities did you have? That's a situation you sometimes can experience when rushing early, but after currency it should be quite rare.
When to switch to caste depends on a lot of things. Did you have the pyramids for Representation? With Rep, Caste becomes much more attractive. You probably also want Paci for faster GP production. Without the mids, I don't think I'd switch into Caste for only the workshop bonus that early. I mentioned earlier that to me hammer economy means State Property and workshops. At that point they become a lot stronger. Earlier in the game, I don't think they are quite strong enough to compete with you other available options. Sure, if you have mids and adapt Caste for the specialists, then building a few 1f3h workshops where no better improvements are available makes sense, but I wouldn't go Caste for the purpose of getting 1f3h workshops. A 3f farm and whipping is more efficient than a 1f3h workshop.
Why leave forests untouched? Usually I chop them for the hammers after math, not because I want to improve the tile underneath. More hammers earlier for an earlier gain often snowballs into much better results later. Whipping is not replacing chopping, you use them both.
At what date was your income negative at 0% slider and how many cities did you have? That's a situation you sometimes can experience when rushing early, but after currency it should be quite rare.
When to switch to caste depends on a lot of things. Did you have the pyramids for Representation? With Rep, Caste becomes much more attractive. You probably also want Paci for faster GP production. Without the mids, I don't think I'd switch into Caste for only the workshop bonus that early. I mentioned earlier that to me hammer economy means State Property and workshops. At that point they become a lot stronger. Earlier in the game, I don't think they are quite strong enough to compete with you other available options. Sure, if you have mids and adapt Caste for the specialists, then building a few 1f3h workshops where no better improvements are available makes sense, but I wouldn't go Caste for the purpose of getting 1f3h workshops. A 3f farm and whipping is more efficient than a 1f3h workshop.
Seraiel
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The whole concept of city specialization is obsolete imho. There are only very few cities, that get specialized to mostly only one thing. The capital often is best as a Cottage city beacause Buro is so strong. The NE + GT city get farmed, and HE city is specialized to mostly Hammers, though Farms don't hurt either. IW city gets specialized to only Hammers and the NP city needs Preserves, but that's already all city specialization that takes place imo..
The standard, no-National-Wonder-city doesn't get only Cottages, only Farms or only Hammers, because it gets specialized differently. I always like to describe this as the way . If it's still very early, one specializes the reasources and the riverside land. If a city has Silks, that doesn't mean anything yet. If one goes for HA-rush or for Elepult, this city probably will get some Farms and some Mines to whip 4->2. However, after the rush, one will be in need for Commerce to support the conquered cities and to tech to the next military tech. Then, the same city will get 3 Cottages, improved Silks and one probably will build a Forge and a Library in it. This doesn't mean however, that those will be built over the existing Farms or Mines, no. One will be happy about those production tiles, because they let one get those buildings faster. One will let the city grow to size 8, and one won't whip it because those buildings aren't urgently needed.
Then, one will want some Maces or Trebs, to continue the war together with the left-over HAs or Elepults. That's maybe 1 whip and possibly two less Forrests.
Then, one will reach Education. If going for Space, this will mean, that one wants some Universities to build Oxford. That means, the six most powerful cities get chosen for this, not the six that have the best Commerce out all. Oxford produces more bonus-beakers when reached earlier, same concept for the GT or the WS.
So the size 8 city will now be whipped down to size 4. It will regrow on the same mentioned tiles, and Workers are still mostly chopping or they build Windmills on the Hills that are still left. This will allow the city to grow to size 10. However, then Chemistry gets into play and because the empire got large and because one looks forward to Corporations, one will want Banks and Grocers. These don't get whipped, because that would mean a lot less research, so one will build Workshops and Watermills on all tiles that are left.
Now the city has 2 Farms, 2 Mines, 4 Villages, 2 Windmills and the rest are Workshops and Watermills! The city produced 3 HAs, a Library, a Forge, 2 Trebs, 1-2 Maces or Muskets, a University and it's getting the Gold multipliers on top, even though it only has very few Cottages. It's still right though, because the city is large and powerful, meaning it 1. can produce large buildings like a Bank, and 2. It has strong TRs!
If you understood this post, you understand the concept of hybrid economy and you'll advance your play at least 1 level.
I could give much more examples, but I'm writing from a handy and I also already plan, to write a guide on this.
Questions you should consider, are, what improvements help me best now, again and again, and you should ask yourself, what will be the most powerful improvement now, and regarding builds, you should ask yourself what will benefit this city now and during the course of the game, but you should more so ask, which cities have the power to build now what I want, which cities are the fastest for a specific task.
I hth.
The standard, no-National-Wonder-city doesn't get only Cottages, only Farms or only Hammers, because it gets specialized differently. I always like to describe this as the way . If it's still very early, one specializes the reasources and the riverside land. If a city has Silks, that doesn't mean anything yet. If one goes for HA-rush or for Elepult, this city probably will get some Farms and some Mines to whip 4->2. However, after the rush, one will be in need for Commerce to support the conquered cities and to tech to the next military tech. Then, the same city will get 3 Cottages, improved Silks and one probably will build a Forge and a Library in it. This doesn't mean however, that those will be built over the existing Farms or Mines, no. One will be happy about those production tiles, because they let one get those buildings faster. One will let the city grow to size 8, and one won't whip it because those buildings aren't urgently needed.
Then, one will want some Maces or Trebs, to continue the war together with the left-over HAs or Elepults. That's maybe 1 whip and possibly two less Forrests.
Then, one will reach Education. If going for Space, this will mean, that one wants some Universities to build Oxford. That means, the six most powerful cities get chosen for this, not the six that have the best Commerce out all. Oxford produces more bonus-beakers when reached earlier, same concept for the GT or the WS.
So the size 8 city will now be whipped down to size 4. It will regrow on the same mentioned tiles, and Workers are still mostly chopping or they build Windmills on the Hills that are still left. This will allow the city to grow to size 10. However, then Chemistry gets into play and because the empire got large and because one looks forward to Corporations, one will want Banks and Grocers. These don't get whipped, because that would mean a lot less research, so one will build Workshops and Watermills on all tiles that are left.
Now the city has 2 Farms, 2 Mines, 4 Villages, 2 Windmills and the rest are Workshops and Watermills! The city produced 3 HAs, a Library, a Forge, 2 Trebs, 1-2 Maces or Muskets, a University and it's getting the Gold multipliers on top, even though it only has very few Cottages. It's still right though, because the city is large and powerful, meaning it 1. can produce large buildings like a Bank, and 2. It has strong TRs!
If you understood this post, you understand the concept of hybrid economy and you'll advance your play at least 1 level.
I could give much more examples, but I'm writing from a handy and I also already plan, to write a guide on this.
Questions you should consider, are, what improvements help me best now, again and again, and you should ask yourself, what will be the most powerful improvement now, and regarding builds, you should ask yourself what will benefit this city now and during the course of the game, but you should more so ask, which cities have the power to build now what I want, which cities are the fastest for a specific task.
I hth.
elitetroops
Deity
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Very nice post, Seraiel! I'm gonna underline that last paragraph, because that is so important:
It might be tempting to cottage a lot of cities, because 70-100 turns later you would have a lot of towns and very nice research with FS. But if you take the best immediate gain, instead of the gain that comes 70 turns later, the game might very well be won long before any towns come into play.
And once more with even more emphasis on the word now:
It might be tempting to cottage a lot of cities, because 70-100 turns later you would have a lot of towns and very nice research with FS. But if you take the best immediate gain, instead of the gain that comes 70 turns later, the game might very well be won long before any towns come into play.
Kallikrates
Prince
Apart from building too much stuff at the wrong time and not knowing about the best whipping finesse I usually did it always roughly like this. But I thought I was not building enough cottages or otherwise specializing enough....
civfanchambers
Prince
As I have stated in several threads, I've been civing since the days of civ2. I thought I new so much about the game and its techniques. But since joining the forum I have come to understand that I have only been scratching the surface. Before I was a forum member I would treat all my cities as jack of all trades cities. Every city I would build every thing I could, as well as build a couple of every tile improvement in each city radius. Because of this I was a warlord level player with a few noble victories. However in just a year and half I am a prince level player with several monarch victories. I could continue to improve but that would require extra micromanagement, which for me is more work than play. I'm comfortable with where I am as a player. Having learned to focus my cities to specific needs and carefully planning building wonders that have cumulative effects, I have greatly improved my civ playing experience. To a certain degree specializing cities is a key to victory above the base noble skill level. As for specialized economies, they had variety to keep the game fresh and give the player alternatives to what they face each game.
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